Thoughts on the Shen rework. (with poll)

RivetAce··6 votes·1,713 views
Champion Update: Shen

On the champion as a whole, I'm glad they kept his ult and taunt. Turning around a fight is one of the best things you can do with Shen, and Riot kept that the same. Also, they kept his split-pushing ability the same, mostly (I'll get to that). I want to break down Shen into his roles.

Laning Shen will have a tougher time laning, as he doesn't have a way to farm from afar when shoved or a way to poke. But I'm more worried about something else - imagine two minions are at low health and both will die. You can only last hit one of them with an auto. Most champions have something to deal with this (barring say Zilean ), but now Shen doesn't. This is a huge nerf to laning phase, one that no one notices. As for beating the opponent in lane, I'm not as worried. As a Shen enthusiast (I don't play League enough to say I'm a main), I know the power of his all-ins, which is half of why rushing sunfire is so crucial. His new Q will increase this power substantially. While removing his poke will hurt him, I'm not sure it affects his laning power too much, just his playstyle. And I do note that it creates more counterplay by setting a timer on his damage capability, like Ryze.

Late Game Shen is a split-pusher, no doubt about it. However, unless they allow his Q to affect turrets, they nerfed his split-pushing threat slightly. Shen is also traditionally a tank/bruiser: he builds tanky and still has decent damage. By removing health scaling from his offense, they significantly reduced his threat to squishies. Why should this matter? Shen has a taunt. As any good Rammus or Shen player tells you, the whole point of a taunt is to shut down the damage from a carry, usually an auto-attacking one. No, I didn't forget about Galio, but his taunt is different as it's his ultimate. Anyway, both of those champions are supposed to be a threat to the enemy Marksmen (or Yasuo, MasterYi and the like). Rammus does this through his excellent W. Shen used to do this through his burst, which was sustained off of his tankiness by his passive. Now that he does %health damage, he's a bigger threat to tanks than marksmen. This does not fit into his role!

I think there's a simple solution to this. Change his Q to do damage based on health, and then the Q-through-the-enemy to add %health damage instead of buffing the current damage. Also, the initial Q activation could deal (maybe reduced) damage to turrets, but not the %health damage. This would keep his power, some of his flexibility, and generally stop him from turning into a wall with minimal peel. It would also help Shen continue to counter those he best counters because he can still gain offense while building defense (which hasn't been a problem for Shen in the past.)

His new W is much improved, as it can save allies even more strongly during ult ganks or cause Shen to take even less damage from the carries he threatens. For those that are confused, it does activate if only Shen is standing in it, so Shen wasn't shunted to bot lane like Mordekaiser was for a while.

TL;DR Laning: Lost poke, stronger all-ins, just a different playstyle Late game: Less splitpush threat, less threat to carries, better defense but still bad peel

EDIT: I hadn't realized that Shen's E scales off Health, and that makes me happier. I still feel like his Q could use it too, but now that his passive does as well, he might be in a good place. Still, the poll must go on!

11 Comments

Vorgast2 votes

I played him a few times in the PBE, and from what I experienced, I'm not sure if he's a top laner anymore. His sustain is gone, his shield isn't on demand to absorb poke (along with no poke of his own) and his damage is very subpar and avoidable. I honestly could see him in the jungle, as his passive would be better timed out for monster camps, his W could possibly block monster AA's, and his ganking potential wouldn't be that bad. Either that or support Shen could be a thing.

RivetAce1 votes

Honestly, Shen's all in capability is really strong. I once took down a Riven level 2 because I wanted to beat her before she became strong. They did nerf his damage because he used to get 2 or sometimes 3 procs of his passive, but he should still be fine. The only problem he has is his poke, but now he's just a different playstyle.

EstebanElGuapo2 votes

[{quoted}](name=u wot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hcpElZY4,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T01:53:23.033+0000)

Honestly, Shen's all in capability is really strong. I once took down a Riven level 2 because I wanted to beat her before she became strong. They did nerf his damage because he used to get 2 or sometimes 3 procs of his passive, but he should still be fine. The only problem he has is his poke, but now he's just a different playstyle.

taking down riven wasn't terribly difficult with old shen. I did it often enough.

EmollientNut05 votes

This is a bit of a long one, so strap in.

This comes from someone with 327,000 Mastery points on Shen mostly coming from the top lane, I've quit the game multiple times and have only come back to play him more. Thematically the idea of a Tank/Ninja/Medic in general is really cool in my opinion, and the rework they're doing doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me or give him a discernable identity.

1: Let's start with his q as a damage tool. Great Harassing tool, and great for farming minions especially against ranged champions. His Q is now a walking up autoattack. That wouldn't be as big of a deal if you didn't already have to come to terms with the fact that he's 3rd for the worst gold acquisition on the toplane (Minus Gragas and Rumble .)

2: His ability to trade. Without any form of ranged attack to go in (As far as I know not even a range increase from A SPIRIT SWORD THAT FOLLOWS YOU AROUND, you literally stand there and autoattack, or have the chance to all in with his taunt. problem with that is almost every engage you'll have in the top lane now is going to be an all in taunt, using all your cooldowns. What happens when you're Shen and you go in with your E and a jungler's around? You die. That's it. What happens to new Shen when you don't use your taunt to engage? You get harassed out of lane by things that aren't autoattacks.

3: His sustain. There's a lot of talk about him being more viable as a support now, but is that really true? I personally used Q supporting a lot just to hit minions for my ADC to keep them healthy all the time. For me it made for an incredible sustain lane, and clearly the pro's weren't too upset about the idea either. Level 3 or 4 dragons are an easy take when you have 3 people all restoring health. I just don't see how that's going to be matched by his passive shield.

4: The 400 energy. His energy costs are ludicrous now. For escaping you'll be able to dash at most twice before exhausting it all and hoping a full out sprint can get you out of your situation. In a world with Riven's and Lee Sin's I'm really not sure why they'd hurt his mobility that much.

5: His taunt dealing Physical damage and scaling off MAX HEALTH!?!?!?! Alright, that's pretty cool. Though I do wish it was still magic damage that it dealt, for those rare situations that buying arguably the worst item in the game item 3091 was more worth it. Or at least keep the AP scaling, since it was mostly useless 95% of the time anyway?

6: His W. What? Like, what? 20% of his kit is using a thornmail to hurt your enemies through the taunt with 50% reduced damage. Autoattacks being dodged = no thornmail damage. Honestly just stupid for his kit, and makes no sense with him.

His new kit obviously does bring a lot new to the table and hopefully the ratios they're giving him balance out a lot of my concerns, but it just plainly doesn't look or feel like Shen. I'd almost rather go out on a limb and say this rework is worth just being a separate champion, and if you just change his E and R you're already there.

        _TL:DR - Lack of sustain for objectives/leashing, no ranged damage whatsoever, constant bullying out of lane/bad trading capabilities, a W that makes no sense with normally purchased items, his damage split being all over the place, thornmail partially useless, bad energy costs, much less mobility, no extra AA range with A SPIRIT SWORD._
DarkweaverZ2 votes

I main Shen also and what everyone fails to realize is this rework hinders his jungle capabilities and his top lane severely. I posted a thread the first day the rework was released, as I had played him and come to terms with how awful he really would be in the upper tiers of League.

His sustain was the only thing that made him really viable in the jungle. No Q healing off auto attacks is just ridiculous. Shen is meant to be a supporting tank that can put out a little damage not some little all in, 1 combo and die champ.

Again as I posted originally when he was released, his W is just pathetic. 1.75 seconds of damage BLOCK at all levels... you might as well just forget about even leveling this up. I did like the change to his taunt but otherwise the overall rework is lacking.

I completely agree with the fact that he can't even try to farm as adequately as he use to when in the top lane. It really saddens me that they took a really good champion (when played correctly) and just said "Hey, let's make this champ look really good on paper."

As a long time Shen player, Vorpal Blade was ALOT of Shen's damage. Enemy is escaping? Let me throw this Blade like a real ninja would!

The overall playstyle is just for people who want to win early game trades against AUTOATTACK champs. But how about the usual Rumble or Malphite in top lane? You might as well forget Shen when it comes to laning because he is Poke-prone and his sustain is horrendous.

EmollientNut01 votes

You can just forget him in every respect of the game to be honest. And I think him looking strong on paper even comes out as debatable, since the math doesnt add up. They remove the 50% damage reduction on his taunt (Which is the only reason taunt is it's own effect and not a stun) and then gave him the dodging circle in exchange? So you're supposed to use that on yourself when taunting and say screw helping your teammates with it? Or taunt people and take the full damage from enemies that now have severely increased armor pen since the start of the season? It just doesnt make any sense to me whatsoever, and the winrate is a pretty obvious reflection. Theres usually a dip in winrate for a rework, but its definitely not going back up to what it was.

Crett1 votes

his health scaling damage is still there. its been moved to his E

i can tell you with certainty that shen can near instagib squishies lategame with titanic hydra

RivetAce1 votes

You're right, I just found that out. Makes me happier. But, now you really have to land your e to do damage. Which isn't necessarily bad. And yes, I almost always rush Sunfire>Boots>Titanic. So much damage.

Antonus2 votes

I just miss the old playstyle of Shen

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=u wot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hcpElZY4,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:19:43.163+0000)

imagine two minions are at low health and both will die. You can only last hit one of them with an auto. Most champions have something to deal with this (barring say Zilean ), but now Shen doesn't.

If you watch minion health like you're supposed to, you just need to anticipate when this will happen and use a Q hit to nuke one of the minions down beforehand because it does an insane amount of damage to minions.

I don't really like the conversion from %hp to %shen's max health because that would mean he'd end up being balanced around being stronger when ahead and weaker when behind, and I generally think this game already has plenty of mechanics that encourage snowballing. It also makes him really capable of diving on and killing squishies with smaller health pools than him in a teamfight which just doesn't seem like something Shen should really be able to do.

alfavhunter1 votes

Make his Q scale off his health at 15% his bonus hp/3 for per AA, this damage is doubled if his passive is currently shielding him (aka a don't ignore me mechanic)

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