Boards›Gameplay

The fatal design flaw of Guinsoo's Rageblade. Double-hit theory item

RivetAce··25 votes·5,074 views

item 3124; the item that nobody uses, but lots of champions wish they could. Well, almost nobody uses it.

There are three major parts to item 3124 that a champion needs to work around.

  1. It's AD and AP. This isn't a huge problem, as quite a few AD champions have AP scalings. Even a few AP champions have AD scalings on their abilities: Akali Evelynn Katarina Malzahar Mordekaiser

  2. It has a double-hit passive. This immediately excludes all of the AP champs above, since their damage comes mostly from abilities. Also, many AD champions are excluded. Only champions with strong on-hit effects can effectively use Guinsoo's now.

  3. It has a ramp-up effect. Now there's nothing wrong with ramp-up effects, but there are two conditions to use them effectively. -First, you need to survive long enough to ramp it up. You either need to be tanky, or you need to have defense in your kit. -Second, you need to be able to keep the stacks alive. You can only keep it alive with auto-attacks, which is very restrictive for melees. There are plenty of melee champions that can use the stats and the passive: Aatrox Irelia Jax MasterYi Nocturne Shyvana Skarner Udyr Warwick XinZhao But you don't see them building item 3124 because they just can't keep the stacks up.

So what champions meet all 3 criteria? Well we can exclude melee champions because of point 3. So our ideal champion has to: -Be ranged -Be reliant on on-hit effects -Be able to survive long enough to ramp up in a fight

This leaves us with... Kayle, and tank Teemo. These are the only champions that regularly build item 3124, because they're the only champions that fit all 3 criteria. (Yes, I know Rush builds item 3124 on his TwistedFate jungle. But he gets survivability through a 3 second stun, still fitting the pattern.)

There are three things to learn from the failure of item 3124.

  1. Items with AD/AP would be better off not including attack speed. That way, they can include hybrid champions that get more of their damage from abilities than from their attacks. Akali Blitzcrank Corki Evelynn Ezreal Katarina Lucian Malzahar MissFortune Mordekaiser Varus

  2. Ramp-up items should synergize with tanky items. Imagine if item 3748 ramped up its power over the duration of a fight. And remember how item 1409 used to ramp up as well.

  3. Devourer was strong because it provided immediate power. item 3124 supposedly fixed that with the ramp-up, but a ramp-up needs defense. All of the other on-hit items (save item 3748 or item 3091 ) don't provide defensive stats to survive for the ramp-up. So for the double-hit passive to work, you need an item that isn't powerful by itself, but doesn't need a ramp-up time.

This is my idea for a more balanced double hit item: Builds out of item 1036 item 1043 item 1036. Combine cost - 1000g. (total cost: 2600g) 30 Attack Damage 30% Attack Speed Unique passive: 15 damage on hit Unique passive: double hit thing

Let me know what you think about my assessment of item 3124!

47 Comments

it be lìke that5 votes

tbh i feel like your assessment was incredibly bias. this item isnt meant simply for ad/ap scaling champs.

its meant for ON HIT champions such as Shyvana Jax MasterYi etc who do all their damage (whether its ad or mixed) primarily through the ever skillful "right click" the ramp up time is fine.

its bad for 2 reasons.

1.no more cleave. 2.costs a lot more.

if the price came down 600 gold, i think a lot of champs would buy it again regardless of the no cleave.

3400g for an item that has arguably better options for nearly 1k less of its price.

Shadow Hazard3 votes

Frankly it needs to be separated into the 2 items filling the separate niches of on hit and hybrid scaling. My idea of an item.

rageblade: item 3133 + item 3802 + 1000 +30 Attack Damage +40 Ability Power +20% Cooldown Reduction +400 mana UNIQUE passive: On basic attacks grain +4 Attack Damage, and +6 Ability Power for 8 seconds (stacks up to 3 times), and every 3 attack grants a stack of Guinsoo's Rage(Up to 4 stacks).

Guinsoo's Rage: Next ability cast gains bonus AP equal to 15% total AD and gains bonus AD equal to 30% AP restoring 20% missing mana upon dealing damage

on hit item item 1043 + item 2053 +item 1042 + 800 +30% Attack speed +40 Armor +150% base health regen +5% movement speed Passive: All basic attacks now instead deal 100% total AD as on hit. Life steal still applies to this damage but critical strikes don't. UNIQUE Passive: All on hit damage is increased by 14%(+2% per level) of your total bonus attack speed percent. UNIQUE Passive - Point Runner: Builds up to 20% movement speed over 2 seconds while near turrets, fallen turrets, and void gates.

Both will fill the distinct needs of on hit and hybrid separately and should you choose you can use them together (at a much higher cost than the currently rageblade added up obviously). In the hybrid field they could go rageblade + gunblade + any other AP or AD item, either way it will scale up rageblades passive ability damage boost effect and a more easier to handle stacking. For the on hit, it will give the distinctly on hit champs the ability to scale up their damage better, and base stats make it an armor counterpart of wits end. If they want to use both and can make it work, more power to them.

DeathBurst1 votes

We shouldn't have an item dedicated to hybrid scaling. Cut'n'paste from my other comment:

On a tangent note, there are good arguments against (real) hybrid items at all. The main point of a champion being hybrid should be to allow them more flexibility in their builds, but if there exist some items specifically tailored for them, then they are balanced around it and forced to buy it, and this is exactly the opposite of what you would like. I already mentioned that Guinsoo is not a "real" hybrid item, it's an item for on-hit champs. Conversely, Gunblade is built around the fact that it provides sustain for Magic damage dealers and the AD is tackled in there more as a determent against some champions (looking at you, Vlad) than as a cool stat for hybrid champs, and very few champs in your list buy it, even though it fills your requirement of not having AS. Basically, after the removal of Spell Vamp because it was too problematic to balance, Gunblade has become the item enabling to create a Magic DPS and giving them pseudo-lifesteal with the AD part as a tuning lever to ensure that it won't get abused as old Spell Vamp was.

Regarding an item for on-hit champs, though, I totally agree that we need one, and that it needs to have at least a little permanent AS on it (as opposed to Guinsoo's giving AS only when already stacked). I'm not sure that your version is perfect, though. Raptor's Cloak seems odd in there, why force Ranged on-hit to buy Armor they don't want? And the two Passives you created feel like they are too strong, especially for such a low conversion cost. Also, you totally removed the ramp-up time, and I'm not sure that's a good idea. On-hit champs have, for the vast majority, constant DPS and no burst, so it looks like a good tuning lever to have some ramp-up that you can tweak.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I think it beeing an AP+AD item really isn't an issue. it actually gives more controll over thom will use it. Intendet users could always get some buffs to theri ap-synergy. If an item gives alot of different stats and thus nearly always gives something suboptimal, it's easier to balance for more champions. The few that fully abuse it can get balanced around the item, and th rest can enjoy a strong item despite not useing all it gives prefectly well. The same thing applyed to trinity. Back when it had stats al over the place, it was theoretically op but a decent buy on many champs cause non could fully use it, and the very few that did use it to near full potential like jax got balanced around it. After it became more specific, there were a few abusecases whil many others wouldn't use it any more. The crit trinty was insane on GP, Yasuo and Corki, but barely used by anyone else. New trinity is used by AS-bruisers that are also spellweaving, and a few that still abuse the spll-blade to the max. It has more users than the crit one, but still less than the old trinity.

With your item, the stats would be ideal for the few champs that scale really well of ad, as and on-hit. Vayne could rush BotrK+that item and go fulltank(or trinity) afterwards and still shred tanks like nothing, Yi would get ballistic off only two items that each cost only ~2600, Irelia would get absurd...and thats about all that really would use it, because the rest either needs ap ontop to fuel nashors and their own on-hit, or simply don't have strong enough on-hits.

The main issue with current guinsoo's is that the stacking is highly unrealistic for melees outside of a 1v1 scenario while sooooooo much of it's power is gated by the stacks. Also, the double hit it's self is an issue, it's an absurd steroid that needs to be gated heavily, thus greating a huge power difference between full stacks and not full stacks. The other huge issue is that it's really expensive without granting any survivabillity nor utillity, which for melee-dps is quite horrible.

Teridax682 votes

The analysis is pretty good, but the end result you're proposing is very much like Devourer prior to its most recent rework: the reason the phantom hit passive was shifted to Guinsoo's Rage was because it was so powerful that giving on-hit champions immediate access to it broke them in combat. Vayne or Gnar applying their three-hit passives in two hits is a tremendous boost in their power, and essentially forces them to be balanced around such a huge power spike, which leads to less individually functional kits.

At this point, I'm starting to doubt Guinsoo's reason to exist as an item, and the validity of on-hit builds: they're meant to be late-game builds, but scale with only one stat (attack speed), which causes on-hit to spike way too early when it's good, as was the case with Kog'Maw after his marksman update. On top of that, the vast majority of on-hit effects are simply more damage, which isn't that much different from, say, just building a ton of AD instead (which, incidentally, is what Fervor of Battle is being turned into). Guinsoo's and its phantom hit effect just serve as an amplifier to on-hit. Overall, on-hit isn't so much a unique playstyle as it is about tacking on a lot of different effects onto autoattacks, several of which end up being not only functionally identical to each other, but also to other stats that achieve a very similar purpose.

DeathBurst1 votes

Totally agree with your first paragraph.

Disagree on the second. On-hit builds are not (or at least, should not be) meant to be late-game builds. That's why we have Crit builds, after all, and they are late game precisely because they use 3 multiplicative stats. On-hit builds, that use only 1, should spike earlier in the game, and I think they offer a good compromise between "one damage item into full Tanks" (Irelia and Trinity or Darius and Black Cleaver) and the Crit builds which require you to go pretty much full glass canon.

An (healthy and realistic) on-hit build that spikes after 2-3 items and allows you to go for some defenses would be a great addition for build diversity. And regarding the fact that on-hits are often just more damage and offer nothing interesting, that it's not a unique playstyle: such a build spiking at a different timing and synergyzing specifically with on-hits and not raw AD for instance would make it into a unique playstyle and allow to tune it properly.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

On-hit builds are not (or at least, should not be) meant to be late-game builds.

I can agree that on-hit shouldn't be a late-game build by nature, but most the game's most prominent on-hit champions, e.g. Kog'Maw, Vayne, Master Yi, Kayle, Jax, tend to be late-game focused. On-hit items like Blade of the Ruined King and Devourer are also designed with late-game in mind, even though on-hit still tends to spike early. Historically, on-hit builds were considered the late-game alternative to crit, which tended to spike during the mid game, but Preseason 6 shifted those scalings around.

{quoted}

And regarding the fact that on-hits are often just more damage and offer nothing interesting, that it's not a unique playstyle: such a build spiking at a different timing and synergizing specifically with on-hits and not raw AD for instance would make it into a unique playstyle and allow to tune it properly.

Making the power spikes of on-hit builds more distinct could definitely help separate on-hit from crit, but I still don't think that's enough to qualify it as a "unique playstyle": ultimately, the function of both crit and on-hit is to empower a champion's persistent autoattacking power, often by just adding more damage, and there isn't a major difference between autoattacking for on-hit damage and autoattacking for crit-based damage. If on-hit offered a really superior amount of attack speed, that could create a distinction in playstyles, but right now the strongest attack speed items are also crit items. If on-hit were the best path towards maxing out on CDR, that could also create a distinct playstyle by emphasizing quick, persistent attacks over raw power per hit, but currently there are no good AS + CDR options for AD champions besides Trinity Force, and both crit and armor penetration builds do a much better job of providing CDR.

Another possible avenue could be for on-hit effects to be almost purely utility- or CC-focused, as opposed to crit's pure focus on raw damage, and to some extent there's already some of that with Wit's End and Blade of the Ruined King. The issue with that, though, is that balancing any kind of non-damage effect around a single autoattack is perhaps the most difficult thing to do, since your effect would need to be spammable and stackable alongside several other different effects without feeling invisibly weak or overwhelmingly complex (which is probably why Dota makes orb effects non-stackable). There's also a limited amount of effects that would interest any single player, and even now Wit's End is unappealing to any autoattacker unless they happen to deal a lot of magic damage (and even then, it's not a given). Ultimately, on-hit will always compete with crit for autoattack-based power, and I don't think it could ever be possible for on-hit builds to survive without any damage of their own.

DeathBurst2 votes

Interesting analysis, thanks for the discussion.

but I still don't think that's enough to qualify it as a "unique playstyle": ultimately, the function of both crit and on-hit is to empower a champion's persistent autoattacking power, often by just adding more damage, and there isn't a major difference between autoattacking for on-hit damage and autoattacking for crit-based damage.

I was more thinking about the fact that if you spike in mid-game and then go for defense, that would enable a fighting style much more straightforward, in-your-face in the thick of battle, as opposed to Marksmen with Crit builds that would carefully tread the border of the battlefield and would be much more cautious about their positioning.

e.g. Kog'Maw, Vayne, Master Yi, Kayle, Jax, tend to be late-game focused.

It's true that there is a disconnect between the champs and the items. Kog'maw revert is partially due to that.

If on-hit were the best path towards maxing out on CDR, that could also create a distinct playstyle by emphasizing quick, persistent attacks over raw power per hit, but currently there are no good AS + CDR options for AD champions besides Trinity Force,

If you go for a few Tank items in your full build, that enables options such as Warmog/Spirit/Frozen Heart.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

but crit is okay on ranged champions huh?

Teridax682 votes

I never said it was. In fact, I've said the very opposite, and made that quite clear in another post, where I mentioned the ridiculous amounts of damage marksmen can get with a single crit. I have also made several posts and threads in the past calling out the issues with the model crit relies on, and calling for it to be overhauled, as it should have been during the marksman update. I've cared about crit long before it became a hot button issue on Boards, and even made a blog post on the wiki over a year ago that suggested an alternative crit model. I don't think it's right for such a massive part of marksmen's power to be random or pseudorandom, I don't think any standard autoattack should ever be allowed to get even close to a standard spell's worth of damage, and I don't think marksmen will ever be truly healthy if the near-totality of their power comes from unavoidable, relatively safe damage.

DeathBurst2 votes

I disagree on your first point about Guinsoo being for hybrid champs.

Guinsoo is not for "hybrid" champs that can use both AD and AP, it's for on-hit champs. Being on-hit guarantees that you will use the AD part, so the question becomes mainly "can you use AP or is it totally wasted"? And most champs still have a few AP scalings, even if it's not on their main damaging abilities. Plus, if a truly on-hit champ wasn't using it, it's easy to buff it by giving this specific champ a few AP ratios somewhere.

All in all, Guinsoo being hybrid is not its main problem.

I agree with most of the rest of your analysis, though. Even if you're a bit too peremptory at some points. I think the problem for melee users is mostly the fact they have to survive long enough, not the issue of keeping up the stacks.

Another problem I didn't see you mention explicitly is the lack of permanent AS on the item. Currently, you need to attack 8 times before starting to get the effect (6 times for activating the passive, and then it procs on the 8th attack, right?). This is a huge number of attacks, most trades are only long enough for 4 or 5 attacks. But how are you supposed to get all those attacks out with no Attack Speed?! And Guinsoo doesn't provide any AS by default, only when already stacked. When the item was reworked, Meddler mentioned that putting back into Guinsoo the permanent AS provided by Recurve Bow was an option if the item was under-performing, and I'm surprised it wasn't done (because the item definitely feels like it's under-performing).

I definitely think that such a powerful effect as double on-hits needs some ramp-up time. Old devourer was much too big of a power-spike, and you were playing against time, it was basically "if he ever gets his transformation, then you're fucked, hf next game". But the current ramp-up is so difficult that melee champs can't use it at all. They are also in a strange situation where they would like Guinsoo as their sole damage item (which is often a rush item, if you plan to go tanky afterwards), but they need other sources of AS. So most melee champs that can use the passive can only afford Guinsoo as a 3rd or even 4th item. Going 1st item Guinsoo makes you unable to stack the passive, going 2nd after another AS item makes you die too fast. Problem is, melee champs need to spike earlier than 3rd or 4th item, that's what ADC are for.

Another solution might be reducing the number of stacks needed for activating the passive, but making them disappear faster. Not sure about it, but as I said, I don't think it's maintaining the stacks that is the issue for melee champs.

On a tangent note, there are good arguments against (real) hybrid items at all. The main point of a champion being hybrid should be to allow them more flexibility in their builds, but if there exist some items specifically tailored for them, then they are balanced around it and forced to buy it, and this is exactly the opposite of what you would like. I already mentioned that Guinsoo is not a "real" hybrid item, it's an item for on-hit champs. Conversely, Gunblade is built around the fact that it provides sustain for Magic damage dealers and the AD is tackled in there more as a determent against some champions (looking at you, Vlad) than as a cool stat for hybrid champs, and very few champs in your list buy it, even though it fills your requirement of not having AS. Basically, after the removal of Spell Vamp because it was too problematic to balance, Gunblade has become the item enabling to create a Magic DPS and giving them pseudo-lifesteal with the AD part as a tuning lever to ensure that it won't get abused as old Spell Vamp was.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Very good and well thought, +1. Only thing is the rageblade change will make it OP af.

RivetAce1 votes

What makes you say that? (Also, it wasn't necessarily a rageblade change, just an idea for a new item. With rageblade being reworked to no longer have the double hit.)

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Because the sated passive is simply too strong if it's just there without condition.

RivetAce1 votes

True, but it's too weak if you can't burst with it. It needs to be available at the start of the fight.

XPhantomBusterX1 votes

Why would you have a fighter with burst that doesn't run out?

RivetAce1 votes

The burst would be weaker than a traditional fighter's burst, but it would last longer. When I wrote the comment, the first thing I was thinking of was XinZhao. He really likes being able to knockup in only two hits.

OMGSoAnnoying1 votes

I did an on-hit Xin build for a while after the changes to Rageblade/Devourer, until the tank jungler seemed to come back in a big way.

item 1419 item 3153 item 3006 item 3065 item 3742 item 3124 ... you lifestole like crazy, and god forbid you had that ramped up at the start of a fight from clearing a jungle camp or something. It was also great for getting rid of a high-value squishy.

XPhantomBusterX1 votes

Yeah, that wouldn't be too bad of an idea. I have heard this idea many times. I'm not against it.

DeathBurst1 votes

No, I totally disagree with that point. On-hit builds should NOT have burst, period. The DPS of an on-hit build doesn't "last longer" than the burst of a "traditional fighter", it just lasts indefinitely because there is no limit on auto-attacks (which remains the main way to apply on-hits). An item targeted to on-hit champs shouldn't increase or give them the ability to burst.

(More nuanced details in my comment directly under your OP.)

FioraWillCarry1 votes

Unique passive: double hit thing

LOL.....+1 for making me laugh.

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

One of the understated flaws is that guinsoo himself is known to brand his own name in broke items historically.

Mysticman891 votes

This is probably besides the point, but how does the double hit passive work with morde q? In some scenario where morde got the rageblade stacked without the target already being dead, that could be some wtf burst...

Also some vaynes still build rageblade. I don't think it's optimal at all compared to the more standard AS build(s) or the more recent crit build for the q burst, but it's still a thing.

RivetAce1 votes

Mordekaiser Q is weird. item 3124 doesn't affect it, and item 3748 can't reset his attack timer while his Q is on.

Vayne is ranged, and her kit, if used correctly, can keep her alive long enough to stack it up. Her only problem is that she doesn't scale with AP. Yi has the same qualities, and his movement is enough to keep the stacks up. Again, no offensive AP scaling.

XPhantomBusterX1 votes

I feel like that this item would be too good. Essentially, you are getting a little less than the attack speed of Statikk Shiv and you are getting an extra fifteen damage on hit. You are also getting an extra 30 damage also. Also, I dont get the part about where you say a unique passive would be the "double hit thing". Does this mean without the passive of Rageblade with the ramp up? Also, one of the passives of Rageblade is the that when you basic attack, you gain stats. If this new Rageblade keeps this passive, this would be an item that gives massive amounts of damage, attack speed, on hit effects, and a double hit passive that HURTS. Also, this item is good on champions with good AP and AD scalings. Also, if you get items that prevent the effectiveness of kiting, Rageblade can be good on those champions since you won't lose your stacks. Also, since Rageblade lacks tankiness, just do not teamfight. For example, Master Yi doesn't have any AP scalings. Master Yi, however, has a very high attack speed and uses the double hit passive of Rageblade often. He also has his ultimate to prevent his enemies from kiting away. Also, Master Yi has to get up close in order to do damage anyway. Rageblade won't force him to get closer in teamfights. Overall, Rageblade really doesn't need a rework.

The Deckowner1 votes

The whole problem of onhit is very simple:

Full onhit=Don't survive long enough/cant do dmg fast enough, outclassed by adc. Semi tank=Not enough damage, out classed by brusiers.

RivetAce1 votes

I agree, the double-hit passive doesn't provide anything new that other builds don't do already. And the double-hit passive removes the balance of 3-hit abilities. I'm not a huge fan, but if it's gonna be in the game, I think my item would be more balanced than Guinsoos.

Done251 votes

To be honest the item should probably just be removed. The whole point of on hit effects is that the DON'T scale. That's why Wit's End is allowed to hit for 42 magic damage and shred MR while also being cheap.

DeathBurst1 votes

Guinsoo doesn't make you scale in the sense that we use about Crit builds, that is, you combine multiple stats that have multiplicative efficiency relative to each other. Sure, you could theoretically go for a full on-hit build with Guinsoo/Nashor/BotRK/Wit's End/(Titanic or Runaan), but a/ that still doesn't scale as well as Crit builds and b/ realistically, you'd want some defensive items in there.

Ryuyah1 votes

Basically xin heals a fuckton more after he gets 2600 gold

ok

WarlockLaw1 votes

Imo Guinsoo's suffers from an issue of lack of dps. On-hit builds don't really have the dps to scale up against Crit builds. There is no pen for them, so on-hits fail to kill tanks quickly and the few champions that synergize with on-hit style builds are either melee or have no real defensive abilities (KogMaw). This is further hammered in by Guinsoo's giving both AD and AP making it a poor choice for any champion that scales poorly with either stat.

Personally I think Riot should either add a hybrid pen item in some form, or remove all items that give both AD and AP. That way we either get rid of rarely built items that are somewhat of a noob trap, or we add in entirely new builds to the game.

Spoofghoul1 votes

[{quoted}](name=u wot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aiEwWcLB,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-08T02:27:19.459+0000)

This is my idea for a more balanced double hit item: Builds out of item 1036 item 1043 item 1036. Combine cost - 1000g. (total cost: 2600g) 30 Attack Damage 30% Attack Speed Unique passive: 15 damage on hit Unique passive: double hit thing

Let me know what you think about my assessment of item 3124!

So the problem with this is that it gives an immediate power spike. look i am not against it but one of the reasons why i think devourer was so broke is because it gave immediate power and most on hit champions are a bit dated and balanced around not having a double on hit. giving them double on hit makes them incredibly strong damage wise, which is fine, it would act like the infinity edge of on hit items

The only problem i have always had is the ridiculous amounts of true damage Yi & Vayne can deal with it, and sometimes the retarded amounts of % hp damage since half the on hit effects seem to be some sort of % damage these days But thats a different issue though i find it a bit related since it blows these things up a bit.

The main problem i think with a double on hit item is that it needs to be expensive, imagine infinity edge costing 2600 gold that would break the item.

So to justify it's cost it would need a lot of extra stats which are currently coming from ad + ap + as and the ramp up, and your solution would change it but make it cheaper at the loss of stats but it would still function like an infinity edge of on hit items.

In order to make it a better item i wonder why nobody has looked at a more defensive approach

item 3044 + item 1043 + item 1029 + 1000 gold = double on hit item

3500 gold 20 AD 250 Health 30% Attack speed 25 armor Unique passive: deal 15 magic damage on hit, and heal for the same amount (halved for ranged) Unique passive rage: gain 10 movement speed on hit + another 5 per stack, up to 5 stacks, lasts 3 seconds. movement bonus increases to 70 on kill decaying over 2 seconds. (halved for ranged) Unique passive: every 2 or 3 attacks apply all on hits twice

I made it 2 or 3 so its either every other attack or every 3th but that's up to the balance team to decide i guess

This way the double on hit item addresses 2 issues, first for on hits to work you have to survive, this item doesn't give a lot but it gives something. And it also makes you more sticky.

Now other items can have their ramp up shit but this one gives immediate power isn't too cheap and fixes most of the problems without being a raw damage stat stick on its own, it will need other on hit items to scale up

Ok that was my double on hit related ramp now i have to make another point about on hit champs & effects in general because i feel like doing so :P

For on hit's we could use more ramping up shit, like something which shreds defenses by a flat amount something not too big ofc like shreds armor by 2 and mr by 1 stacking up to 15 times which makes it rather awkward for non on hit champions and not too effective at killing tanks Another idea would be to apply a sighted/vision debuff with a small dot Or something which deals aoe damage on hit and the size of the aoe increases with every attack up to a certain cap, said aoe could possibly apply on hit effects as well now that would be kind of interesting.

i think currently on hit itemization and champions are rather boring and could benefit from making them more unique by allowing them to apply more interesting effects through their on hit's like utility effects or cc effects like grounded for example or certain debuffs like giving vision which would counter stealth for example.

Currently their function a lot like an adc but then slightly different which is not only incredibly boring, but we already have adc's now don't we.

DeathBurst1 votes

since half the on hit effects seem to be some sort of % damage these days

Well, if you just want a flat increase in damage, you don't need an on-hit, you just increase the champ AD ;)

In order to make it a better item i wonder why nobody has looked at a more defensive approach

Because on-hit and range should remain independent. Your version of the item would not please Teemo or Kayle at all, for instance. It's much better for melee on-hit than for ranged on-hit.

Spoofghoul1 votes

only the heal part really the phage rage passive is already weaker for ranged on other items to prevent abuse its the same on this one

so the only big difference would be 7,5 heal for ranged vs 15 for melee this is again to prevent abuse cases, but the 15 on hit is the same for everyone, Teemo and Kayle are ranged so they can kite to avoid damage and wont have to go into the thick of things either.

i guess my description is to blame for the confusion.

Well, if you just want a flat increase in damage, you don't need an on-hit, you just increase the champ AD ;)

Agreed but in the end both are an increase in damage, dps to be specific so whether you deal dps by throwing 10 tomatoes or 1 rock at a time really doesn't matter that much, on hit could be much more interesting though as i described later on in my comment.

It could add literally any number of effects like applying on hits in aoe to double hit as amplifiers, and things like granting vision to shredding resistances, or maybe even dealing ''resource damage'' consume x % of their resource, could be a steal or a conversion into a shield or damage or even weirder like pulling enemies closer in towards you after a short delay imagine that one with a double on hit to draw someone twice as close, or more often. But then in aoe too because you got that item which applies on hits in aoe very good option if you want to be disruptive. Since all 3 of those would be either utility on hit or amplifiers your on hit damage would be weaker because of it but you would have a lot of options for varying effects to apply.

Im just using my imagination, it would certainly add more unique options to on hit champions

DeathBurst1 votes

the only big difference

No, that's not what I meant. I mean it's worse for Ranged because it provides stats that Ranged don't want to buy. Also, sure, Phage is worse on Ranged by default, it's not you who added that restriction, but what Ranged currently buys Phage? Pretty much none.

Agreed but in the end both are an increase in damage

My point was that the causality is reversed. It's not that most on-hits are %damage, instead it's that if you want to add a %damage, you are forced to include it as a on-hit. Totally agree that they could add a lot more interesting effects to on-hit.

Chamsae1 votes

I just want my old Rageblade back!

WiegrafOfValor1 votes

The problem is that ON-HIT items can't have AS at all, it suppose to synergize with AS, if you have an item that scale with itself you just create a monster to balance.

Think about it, if I play a champion that rely on ON-HIT, why would I stop stacking on-hit items? since all of them just enhance the power of the other.

Example:

item 3153 >> I need more AS to deal more damage with the passive.

If I buy item 3091 I'll be gaining more AS enhancing the power of BoRK, but also, BoRK will be increasing the damage output of Wits ON-HIT, so I have no choice to buy it.

Now that I have item 3153 and item 3091 I'll need more AS to deal even more damage, so I need to buy item 3124 to increase my AS, while giving me more ON-HIT that will be enhance by the fact that I already have 2 AS items.

That's in my opnion what's fundamentally wrong with ON-HIT items.

Sohleks1 votes

I'm pretty sure the goal of the fervor of battle changes is to later come around and make guinsoo's attractive later this season outside the most optimal case now that the mastery isn't so ridiculous in itself

Kallian1 votes

i like running it onTristana it gives her E a faster time to stack and shes pretty much a bastion when you have the stacks and Q plus the AP makes the W and Ult hit like a bitch.

Master Lycan1 votes

Dont see Warwick building Guinsoos

Warwick : item 1416 item 3124 item 3071 item 3748 item 3158 item 3065 lel

Naagiinii1 votes

Even though the ap is worthless on her, i like building it with Vayne because it procs w faster

Denims Wrath6661 votes

i suggest on vaynes myself. you still kind of have an ap ratio because of auto attacks have ap scaling anyways :)

The Blue Rajah1 votes

Auto attacks don't have ap scaling unless you buy a nashor's tooth...

Denims Wrath6661 votes

dude im pretty damn sure they do. at least on turrets. this isn't like, on hit effect like nash. there is an ap ratio to autos, someone save me the time of finding this shit

The Blue Rajah1 votes

On turrets, yes, but only if you have more ap than ad. Which vayne won't (or god, I hope she won't, lol).

Frius1 votes

3600 gold,

..... hydra trinity infinity edge lvl ...of gold

AirKingNeo1 votes

Ok so make it not hybrid and you violated rule 1: removing identity.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by RivetAce

League of Pixels
Memes & Games94 comments
274
votes
Grievous Wounds need to be changed
Gameplay31 comments
30
votes
New Warwick counters Yasuo ult, Vi ult and more
Gameplay54 comments
29
votes
Godlike Aatrox buffs
Gameplay22 comments
11
votes
Thoughts on the Shen rework. (with poll)
Gameplay11 comments
6
votes
The real reason Kalista sucks.
Memes & Games5 comments
6
votes