Veigar's instant aoe stun and high burst had too little counterplay. Reworked.

InsaneSamurai·Jul 16, 2015·26 votes·1,587 views

29 Comments

D1 KalistaJul 16, 20158 votes

Thought this was going to be a Riven QQ thread, I was pleasantly surprised.

yay nibbersJul 17, 20155 votes

It's not fair to compare Annie's Ult to pre-rework Veigar's E...

His E was much harder to aim

InsaneSamuraiJul 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hbrqEAGB,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-07-17T18:42:56.183+0000)

It's not fair to compare Annie's Ult to pre-rework Veigar's E...

His E was much harder to aim

Hahaha, nice!

PiRoScOuTJul 16, 20153 votes

Hopefully this one will make Riot do something...

RaptameiJul 17, 20153 votes

They will put a 1.5 second delay on her ult, then give her the following compensation buffs: Q is now a skillshot, damage unchanged; W AP ratio -0.2, E halved, movement speed reduced to 305.

CasterGilgameshJul 18, 20151 votes

wait but her passive works on her skills...

ShahamutJul 16, 20152 votes

hahahahahaha. Kudos

John JJ SchmidtJul 17, 20152 votes

I'm not saying she couldn't use a tweak, but are you really comparing a low CD basic spell to a four-spell-windup+flash+ultimate?

SasogwaJul 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=John JJ Schmidt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hbrqEAGB,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-17T13:39:22.712+0000)

I'm not saying she couldn't use a tweak, but are you really comparing a low CD basic spell to a four-spell-windup+flash+ultimate?

low CD basic spell? Which one?

InsaneSamuraiJul 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=John JJ Schmidt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hbrqEAGB,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-17T13:39:22.712+0000)

I'm not saying she couldn't use a tweak, but are you really comparing a low CD basic spell to a four-spell-windup+flash+ultimate?

Veigar's E does not have a low cd. Tibbers has a fairly low cd though for an ult :P Plus if she doesn't have her ult she can just use her w and its practically the same effect. She also doesn't need flash. People can have ancient coin or guardians, then thats another free instastun burst engage. The 4 spell windup is a joke. Maybe if you actually had to hit a target with her spells, but she can just sit back for a few seconds and recharge her stun whenever she wants, so that's pretty much irrelevant.

Also, once she uses Tibbers, she can q e w q and hey there's her stun again faster than Veigar's would ever come back.

MAN OF INTELLECTJul 17, 20151 votes

Brand also has AOE nuke too, don't forget that. Veigar's box is a weak way to catch out someone, as he can simply be counter-nuked.

John JJ SchmidtJul 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Veigar's E does not have a low cd. Tibbers has a fairly low cd though for an ult :P Plus if she doesn't have her ult she can just use her w and its practically the same effect. She also doesn't need flash. People can have ancient coin or guardians, then thats another free instastun burst engage. The 4 spell windup is a joke. Maybe if you actually had to hit a target with her spells, but she can just sit back for a few seconds and recharge her stun whenever she wants, so that's pretty much irrelevant.

Also, once she uses Tibbers, she can q e w q and hey there's her stun again faster than Veigar's would ever come back.

Veigar's is a low CD compared to 80 seconds max R for Annie, is what I meant, since we're comparing Veigar E to Annie R ;)

Her ult has a range and a circular AE versus W being conal PBAoE, requiring her to be right on top of you all instead of a nice safe distance back.

Even with a Talisman or Righteous Glory, she shouldn't be able to initiate fast enough to get a good group stun off without Flash.

It takes 10 seconds to charge a stun with no targets, W,E,W,E. (Not that that's a long time, just more than a few seconds)

Once she uses Tibbers, if she charges stun again with Q,E,W,Q (which takes four seconds between Qs) she can't use that charged stun for another 4 seconds when W comes off CD.

God, I feel like I am saying she doesn't need to be tweaked. I totally agree she does. I was just saying not to hold up Veigar E as a comparison.

InsaneSamuraiJul 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=John JJ Schmidt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hbrqEAGB,comment-id=000500010001,timestamp=2015-07-17T15:52:20.819+0000)

Veigar's is a low CD compared to 80 seconds max R for Annie, is what I meant, since we're comparing Veigar E to Annie R ;)

Her ult has a range and a circular AE versus W being conal PBAoE, requiring her to be right on top of you all instead of a nice safe distance back.

Even with a Talisman or Righteous Glory, she shouldn't be able to initiate fast enough to get a good group stun off without Flash.

It takes 10 seconds to charge a stun with no targets, W,E,W,E. (Not that that's a long time, just more than a few seconds)

Once she uses Tibbers, if she charges stun again with Q,E,W,Q (which takes four seconds between Qs) she can't use that charged stun for another 4 seconds when W comes off CD.

God, I feel like I am saying she doesn't need to be tweaked. I totally agree she does. I was just saying not to hold up Veigar E as a comparison.

Well, my point is she will have another stun, and likely another AOE stun, before Veigar would have his E back(also at times she can do it slightly faster if she last hits with the Q for the CDR). Sure it takes that long to charge a stun if she cant throw q on a minion or jungle mob, but how often will that really happen?

Also, yes the W is a pbaoe, but it hits a pretty similar sized area as Tibbers and can serve the exact same purpose under slightly different conditions. Finally, it's not like Annie has to initiate the fight herself every time, there are plenty of tanks running around to initiate for her when she doesn't have flash and/or some sort of ambush planned.

Knight SoIaire Jul 17, 20151 votes

it was a long cd basic spell

also annies stunn is easy to hit and instant range and amount of targets varies

but when we compare annie's and veigars full cc+burst combos

they are basicaly the same ... even ranges should be similar ... tohugh as someone noticed ... veigars cc is harder to land ... also veigar can burst only one target

its not even worth hiding ... riot nerfs champions and then thinks "what should we say to the community to make us look like we care for this game"

and then contradictions come up ... and we can get some every patch

bradJul 16, 20151 votes

as soon as annie starts to see play in korea like veigar was im sure she will get something

Hard PenetratorJul 16, 20151 votes

She was one of the top supports for over year and a half. They nerfed her here and there, but didn't change her core gameplay.

Zair UmbrasJul 17, 20151 votes

They could easily just... revert the buffs to her ratios that she got a while back so her abilities are all 80%. Q and R are 80%'s while her W is 85%. lol.

JustMyBassCannonJul 17, 20151 votes

Let's just make her pathetically weak, instead of giving her counter-play so she can be strong, but bearable. That sounds like a great idea!

JustMyBassCannonJul 17, 20151 votes

It's on her ultimate, and she has to build stacks, but I can't deny that it's a bit too good of a spell combo.

At least it's not Amumu's ultimate.

...what? I was agreeing with the OP that Annie needs changes. Or is it the Amumu comment?

ChaosThiefJul 17, 20151 votes

She can flash W as well, but more often than not tibbers would be better since it hurts more.

JustMyBassCannonJul 17, 20151 votes

Not even because it hurts more, but because it's a longer-ranged spell with a detached AoE. It's not directly attached to her, so it actually has a longer effective range, especially when you use Flash.