What if Veigar's spells interacted with his wall?

Kouga··6 votes·542 views

First off, I am not here to discuss whether or not his E changes were good or bad. I have my own thoughts about the changes (I agree with them) but I understand why Vei players feel short changed. If they can land the stun, they can still land their combo - but what if they don't?

So I had a thought.

What if Veigar's spells could interact with the wall or the space inside the wall, to make it more interesting if you missed the stun? Now, this is assuming that they don't just blink out of it; in that case, you're still just S.O.L. - this looks at cases where they get trapped inside the cage (But Kouga why wouldn't they walk -out- instead of in? Shut up I'll get to that)

Let's say that Veigar's abilities did something if they passed through his wall or entered the space inside the wall. This would allow Veigar to still have an empowered interaction with a Champion, and it further compounds that Veigar fantasy of "You Are Trapped In My Cage"

Q: Maybe it makes it wider, or go further, or adds another pass-through (so it would hit three targets instead of two). Or maybe the projectile splits into a fan like \ | / and splits into three? Some kind of empowered effect.

W: What if his W had a wider impact radius if it hit inside the wall? Maybe it just gets biggers, so its easier to hit. Or it drops faster, with a shorter delay. Or maybe it has a second impact after the first.

R: Oh hell no, I'm not touching his R. It's already stupidly strong so I don't think it needs love..

This, I think, adds options to Veigar's gameplay pattern and makes it much more engaging. There are few caveats:

  1. Veigar's damage is already strong if he lands his combo, but the biggest complaint is that if you can't catch them with the stun itself, its hard to land his other skillshots. So this shouldn't necessarily effect single-target damage as much as it should effect the hit zones. So it should not, for example, make his Q deal more damage. Instead, by making it branch out or make it wider or farther, you simply make it easier to hit a target in the cage. This might increase his overall damage in the lane - i.e., if you let his Q hit 3 targets instead of 2, Veigar can deal more total lane damage and maybe get more stacks in rare circumstances. But it wouldn't change his 1-to-1 damage output.

  2. The player inside the 'cage' still needs some kind of reaction. So we have to find the line between easier to hit, but still juke-able. We want to avoid simply making the Cage a Kill Zone by making the abilities completely unavoidable.

This lets Veigar feel powerful if he traps someone inside the cage, and he doesn't feel so bad about missing the stun. In fact, this actually makes his E more engaging overall. Do you try to land the stun on the edge? That makes it more likely they can "just walk out". But if you plant them directly in the center of the ring, it makes it much harder for them to make it out, and so you can instead use these other interactions.

Additionally this opens up his team fighting - if you drop that cage on the enemy team, you can really increases his teamfight impact. No longer is he purely about nuking the one AP carry.

I think this would be the kind of "compensation" that Veigar deserves. It makes him 1) More interesting to play as, 2) more interesting to play against, 3) gives him more options than the very binary "stun/no stun" and 4) it opens up additional play patterns all while 5) not breaking his single-target damage potential, and 6) adding to his teamfight potential.

Thoughts?

13 Comments

Whimsy Spook2 votes

I like the idea of his cage having more interactions. Maybe if skill-shot spells, friendly and enemy, hit the cage it doesn't enter it but instead appears at the other side of it. Then it could be used in a multitude of ways. It could be used to cage team-mates or yourself from incoming skill-shot(s). Auto-attacks and click-on spells still go through the cage, so it's not a Yasuo shield. The skill-shots will immediately appear on the other side as if the area within the cage didn't exist. So if you shot a Q at the cage, the distance within the cage wouldn't count as distance traveled, so it could be used as a skill-shot enlarger as-well. If the enemy is stunned on the furthest side of the cage from you, you can Q from a distance where the Q would show up on the other side and it would hit him.

Actually, this is probably stupid. I'm just thinking out-loud here!

Kouga3 votes

Hey, how many Champion abilities or designs do you think came in by people just thinking out loud.

In this case, making it interact with all skill shots would be a huge burden in terms of coding and gameplay implimentation and could have all kinds of unforeseen consequences (Could make it harder/impossible to dodge bouncing spells like Fiddle/Brand ults if they could use the cage walls to bounce around towards Champions). Its a cool idea though and I could see it being a part of a future champion as a separate kit altogether! Like what if you had a Space-time mage who could warp reality? And he would make 'dead zones' like you're talking about where spells would pass right through. That could be really neat.

Whimsy Spook1 votes

Ha, yeah I love brainstorming. Sometimes even the stupidest or craziest ideas can be reshaped into something that works!

Kouga1 votes

Bumping for great justice.

Kouga1 votes

Well I'm seeing these ideas mentioned in other threads so it can't be that bad. There might be something here.

Levyathyn1 votes

So like a Jayce Q + E mage? His R has to bounce around inside of his wall though, and hit everything inside of it multiple times. XD

Kouga1 votes

I specifically didn't touch his Ult because it is so powerful already but I think having it interact with his basic abilities could really add something to him.

Kouga1 votes

Bump for evil justice

Kouga1 votes

Bump for tiny villainy

stuartk111 votes

I think that they could make it more interesting, since currently Veigar is reliant on his team-mates to take advantage of his Event Horizon, and he currently doesn't have much to take advantage of it. The way that they're currently pushing Veigar to be, he's more viable as a support than a mage (Wasn't this what Riot wanted to stop btw?) as the best part of his abilities is having effectively a Thresh ultimate on a moderate, though still quite short, cooldown. There really isn't much incentive to play Mage Veigar with the reliance he has on his team-mates to land 2 of his 3 long-delayed abilities.

Kouga1 votes

Well the biggest argument against the Veigar changes (although I agreed they needed to happen) is that most people felt it made the ability "useless", since it was possible (arguably, easy) to avoid his stun. This is because Veigar's old play pattern required the player to use the edge of Event Horizon - you were trying to stun them, not trap them. But that isn't a good ability.

Veigar has a cage, but the best use of the cage wasn't using it as a cage. It was just used as a Stun. This change would let him actually use the ability in an interesting and rewarding way. If the "zone" inside the cage gave Veigar appealing options then there would be a reason to try to put your target in the middle of the zone. This, in turn, forces the opponent to either sit in the zone and suffer the consequences (as I described in the OP) or they'd try to escape the zone, but since they're in the middle, they're more likely to get stunned by passing through it.

stuartk111 votes

{quoted}

Well the biggest argument against the Veigar changes (although I agreed they needed to happen) is that most people felt it made the ability "useless", since it was possible (arguably, easy) to avoid his stun. This is because Veigar's old play pattern required the player to use the edge of Event Horizon - you were trying to stun them, not trap them. But that isn't a good ability.

Veigar has a cage, but the best use of the cage wasn't using it as a cage. It was just used as a Stun. This change would let him actually use the ability in an interesting and rewarding way. If the "zone" inside the cage gave Veigar appealing options then there would be a reason to try to put your target in the middle of the zone. This, in turn, forces the opponent to either sit in the zone and suffer the consequences (as I described in the OP) or they'd try to escape the zone, but since they're in the middle, they're more likely to get stunned by passing through it.

I agree that using Event Horizon as a cage is how it should be, and that the "stun them on the edge" mindset is quite unhealthy. But really, was it too much to ask for a little bit of synergy in the champion's own abilities? In particular, his W feels the least useful, since he now has long delays on 2 of his 3 basic abilities. It NEEDS some sort of interaction with his Even Horizon to really keep it as part of his identity. Also, make the Q so that it will pass through the full length of Veigar's E, and make the opponent have to dodge his skills if they get trapped inside. This would actually allow for them to adjust his power correctly, and allows the opponent the opportunity to dodge his skills. I think this would be a more healthy playstyle.

Kouga1 votes

So Veigar tries out for an MLB team.

They tell him he could be Short Stop in the Little Leagues.

rimshot

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