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A brief moment of optimism, then you can continue on your path of cynicism

Kouga··70 votes·2,693 views

I was playing Nemesis Draft and something hit me about the roster: honestly, overall, I didn't have a whole lot of automatic "Give them X Champion because they're so shit" choices

I mean there are clear outliers you don't want to give them, sure. The FotM wheel goes round and round. But as I sat in Nemesis draft thinking "Who do I want to give my opponent" I realized that, considering the game has 120+ champions, it really isn't as bad as we make it out to be. I considered giving my pick Evelynn, because I personally suck at Evelynn (as I was reminded when I was given it the game prior) but I also remembered my friend who is an absolute terror with Eve. Instead I thought, "hey, Karma, there's a champion I never see. She must be weak right now."

Karma then proceeded to dominate our lane. I mean sure we didn't have champions we liked or wanted but that's the point of the game mode - but my overall impression was that for each champion I could give, you never knew if you'd be coincidentally giving them their favorite main. It just comes down to who can give the worse off team comp.

Everyone is going to have their preferences and playstyles, there will be ups and downs throughout. Yes, there will always be OP Champions. No, the champions will not be exactly how YOU (yes, you) want them to be.

Anyway, just my personal opinion, I realize that not everyone feels the same way.

You may continue raging and QQ'ing about Veigar

58 Comments

lojician42 votes

There are a lot of mediocre champions that do fine against each other but get facerolled by the competitively viable picks. That's not the same thing as the majority of champions being good.

Kouga9 votes

By the same logic, having a small pool (a very small pool, relative to the overall number of Champions) of FotM or overpowered champs that are simply at the top % of competitive play doesn't mean that all the other champions are mediocre.

lojician15 votes

I don't see how that's the same logic at all. I don't really care how you want to frame it, if you pick an average champion an equally skilled player can pick a top pick that will shit on you. If you want to go "hey guys look at what an awesome job riot is doing making all these balanced champions!" then you have to admit they're doing nothing about a class of horribly overpowered champions that invalidate the 'balanced' ones.

Nameless Voice24 votes

This is pretty much it, and probably the reason I still play this game.

There are a bunch of champions who are blatantly overpowered, over-kitted, or just outright not fun to play against. They are also the champions who are played in nearly every game, because people want to win above all else.

However, once you get past those champions, most of the rest are fairly balanced against each other and well-designed.

The reason that it's so frustrating is because we can clearly see which champions are dominating or not fun to play against, but Riot are completely happy to leave those champions up there.

They make a lot of adjustments to keep the balance of the normal champions in line - and they're actually quite good at that, to be fair - but they repeatedly refuse to touch the top champions who desperately need reworks, which in turn makes the good balance of all the other champions pointless.

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

This post needs to be upvoted more

ArkenStorm3 votes

I feel the exact same way. everybody else is about even EXCEPT FOR the LC$BIGPLAYZ ones

Lord Graves III2 votes

The punchline here is that those big playmaking champs tend to not even be that good for 99% of the playerbase.

Seriously, Lee Sin doesn't even have a positive winrate.

And Azir got nerfed when he was too strong I think.

While Lee Win and Vi(able) are a problem at pro level, but below there, almost the entire cast is perfectly viable. Though admittedly some are more niche than others, and poppy and urgot suck.

Tapu Fini1 votes

This is why I find myself playing less every day. It feels awful when a champion's viability comes in the form of the question: "Can I play against X champion that's in 40% of games?" Because when they finally are hit, it's a slap on the wrist, while other champions get slammed with nerfs.

I'd love to see how the balance of the game would stand if some of these golden (problem) children never existed. Sure as hell couldn't be much worse.

KaisadiIIa2 votes

Enemy picking jungler Vi (for example) automatically invalidates a huge pool of immobile mid laners and marksman. That's the problem in this game.

Lord Graves III1 votes

Really? Cause I munch on bad Lee Sins all the time.

The "top picks" aren't even that relevant for 98% of the playerbase.

Its really just that the league of legends playerbase are a bunch of whiners. Seriously though, league players never stop whining. Its nuts.

Course maybe thats because I came from the fighting game community. Out there you don't get buffs. Whining and waiting for buffs won't help. There you need to get better, work with what you have, and try creative options.

The league community isn't a fan of that. They'd rather whine.

GnomeDigest8 votes

Its 100% this. When you take the top tier champions out of the game sure the sucky ones dont seem quite as sucky.

Infact I think nemesis shows us the exact opposite of what the OP claims. While maybe you are not sure who to give them, I bet the OP is very sure of the smaller set of strong champions you dont give them.

2pudge1cup1 votes

Agree completely.

Riot's done well in not having as many god awful champs as there used to be (old sivir, old heimer, old eve the walking ward, etc.). They do deserve some credit for that.

However, there seems to be a more and more blatant special club of those who are allowed to dominate games and keep certain picks down. Occasionally, riot goes after one (elise), but they've since added a few others to that club who are also generalist/mobile champs.

Nameless Voice1 votes

I would actually rather have old late-S1 gutted Eve than the state she's in now, where she's no longer an AP champion, no longer really an assassin, and is mostly too weak to actually jungle.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Faceroll is a bit stong word. Most of the unpopular champs can still be as useful as top picks, there are secret OPs that are maybe 1% weaker than tier 1 champs.

Leti the Yeti19 votes

burn the optimist!

Kouga15 votes

Aaaah! Hides behind Braum

Leti the Yeti11 votes

http://youtu.be/3jwLDQBEATk?t=26s

manbearswine2 votes

{quoted}

Aaaah! Hides behind Braum

Well burn Braum with him too. He won't be missed.

ArkenStorm1 votes

but his shield dun blockz wun projectyle

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

but his shield dun blockz wun projectyle

Well,it's either that,or he starts laying eggs(like thresh did...and that's how braum was born),we should at least try...

Junkο8 votes

Actually it IS as bad as we make it out to be. The thing is that when champions like Zed, Lee, Jarvan, Gnar, Kalista and the like are not picked every single game, many other champions become viable because of the lack of mobility creep and almost manaless kits.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

The real reason Karma and Eve were able to dominate your game was because there was no Lee Sin/Vi/J4/Gnar/Ahri/Azir/etc. on your team to invalidate their strengths.

Almost EVERY champion in the game is strong and Nemesis Draft has proven this. Even Urgot was doing work in this mode. Why? There wasn't any mobility because people wouldn't give the top tier mobile champs to either team. So low mobility champs were able to shine and show just how strong they are when their opponents aren't leaping all over the place.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

I realized this when I were given Eve the first time. I love Eve and I've played her tons of times, and so I stomped the game and carried. But then I asked to myself: "Why did I stomped that much now but I'm unable to have games like these in normal games? Oh, well, there wasn't any Lee ir Vi this game who could overexploit my weaknesses while not having any weakness themselves."

Sooner or later RIOT will have to admit that some champions have overloaded kits that allows them to do everything and adapt to every situation (Think on Lee: CC, true vision, mobility, tankiness, damage, burst, dps...)

demonsnake4204 votes

This is because the overall balance in League is nowhere near as bad as the community (or at least the Boards community) likes to make it out to be. If you look at all the common complain champions (Zed, Lee Sin, Thresh, Kalistia, Yasuo, Azir, etc.) they all have not just low win rates, but for most of them they have pretty low win rates (i.e. in the bottom third of win-rates). I know someone will say, 'But win rates aren't everything', and while I agree to a certain extent, win rates are a major factor in determining the relative balance of a champion. Its just basic logic. If Champion A is really strong and unbalanced then they should have an above average win rate. But that's just not the case with the vast majority of champions the boards complains about. Zed is consistently around a 47-48% win rate, Lee Sin is consistently around 45-47% win rate, Thresh is consistently around 46-48% win rate, Yasuo is consistently around 45-46% win rate, etc. (hell, Kalistia used to be in the bottom 10 of win rates [only ahead of Urgot] until just after she saw major LCS play; so now she is instead only slightly above the bottom third of win rates). One, of course, could make the argument that many of those champions are popular and thus their win-rates are low from all the people who don't have the skill to play them properly. I would argue that even with that being the case, if they truly are as overpowered and poorly balanced as the community seems to think then they should still have at least a slightly above average win rate. Does Zed or Thresh have a lot of potential power in their kits? More power than other champions? Yes they do. The difference is, however, that to truly make use of that they demand a higher level of skill from the person using them. People seem to forget that difficulty of use regarding a champion is another lever for balance. It doesn't matter if Lee Sin can do a lot of strong stuff with his kit if the person playing him doesn't have the mechanical skill to pull it off. At least it seems that Nemesis Draft is showing some people in the community that the game's balance isn't anywhere near as bad as the boards makes it out to be. (Also, before anyone makes a snide comment regarding these champions dominating the LCS or #LC$BIGPLAYZ or anything like that, keep in mind that this current LCS season has thus far seen the most champion diversity and that the value on champions is different in the LCS in comparison to soloque.)

0range4563 votes

Jungle Nunu: All the wards in all your camps which I have taken

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

{quoted}

Jungle Nunu: All the wards in all your camps which I have taken

I miss in season 3, when this actually worked. It was so fun. Doesn't work too well now though.

Lord Graves III3 votes

Veigar is gonna be fine. Player skill is surprisingly varied. Lee Sin isn't even that great for 90% of the player base.

People take for granted how well balanced League of Legends is.

xLegendary Troll2 votes

I always give them Zed. Everyone is really bad with him.

Junkο1 votes

Enemy team gave us Kalista once, she couldn't have fed more.

Kingsgrave3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P2wLPrHF,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-02-15T11:23:56.646+0000)

Enemy team gave us Kalista once, she couldn't have fed more.

Well considering the most common picks are people with hard CC, it makes sense that would happen.

SecretAgentHulk1 votes

Bronze here: I figured that since nobody can play Azir at this level, I should give him. After getting flamed, I was correct.

But please do not ever give Mundo. He is too strong for you.

Tuffroot1 votes

Depends on your team comp. They gave us a bunch of AP supports. We gave them tanky champs that need lots of healing (Mundo, Vlad, Zac). Built Morello's and Liandry's and burned them to the ground every team fight.

SecretAgentHulk1 votes

Oh, OK. I'm learning so much about team comps from playing this mode.

insaiyanbacca2 votes

yeah from what i've found in this mode i really dont know who to give themi think about what my teammates say are good to give them stuff like urgot but then i think back to the quadras ive gotten with him and the penta kill the jungle urgot i played against got. from what isee there are only very few actual weak champs

manbearswine2 votes

That's not it at all,nemesis draft is all about giving your opponents a shit comp(like 5 kiteable melees,or 5 adcs,or 5 champions with no scalings,or 5 lategame ap carries),not to mention a lot of champions are getting destroyed by mobility which is the thing which makes them shit to begin with,and yet don't expect anyone giving their opponents zed.

This post is retarded,frankly,this is classic optiautism,nothing personal,but I truely detest your kind,you just want to forcibly view something in a positive way no matter how far it is from reality and would use any excuse(no matter how horrible it is) to support your point.

Senteth2 votes

You detest me ;_; Oh well... at least I don't live in the dark ages. :D

manbearswine2 votes

{quoted}

You detest me ;_;

Not you,your kind,screw this damned cult,lunatics,all of you.

ThePlasticSpork2 votes

Amusingly, every time I've asked my team to give the enemy team all ADCs, we have absolutely rolled over them. Regardless of what my team gets (all supports, all tanks), the all ADC comp has gotten rolled.

From the boards constantly whining about how ADCs are so good, maybe it's actually the support and surrounding tanks/bruisers that make ADCs look so strong.

This is also why I generally stand against the idea of just buffing the weaker picks. Most champions in the game are balanced relative to eachother, you just have a few outliers at the very top and very bottom.

KaisadiIIa2 votes

ADCs are really weak early game and extremely item dependant, even the caster ones like Graves. That's why ADCs are paired with a support early game. People seem to not understand that.

TotalJerk2 votes

It's not about what individual champions you give them, it's about the overall comp.

  1. Don't ever give them any junglers
  2. No tanks
  3. As little mobility as possible
  4. As little CC as possible
  5. All physical or all magic damage
  6. No versatile champions
  7. Give them a comp that's countered by what they're giving you

Other team gave me Yorick last game, He already has borderline infinite jungle sustain and early dragon soloing, but their lack of mobility meant easy ganks, and their lack of a jungler gave me free reign over their jungle so I constantly had one of the buffs at all times.

Mandang02 votes

It doesn't really matter how balanced the dregs of the champion pool are, as none of them will ever see play outside of nemesis anyway. The imbalance of the game is at the top, and it's still very much there.

As far as whether you label that top group OP or you label everyone else mediocre, it's just different ways of saying the same thing. When people complain (that I see) about champion balance, it's usually not about terrible champions being imbalanced relative to one another, it's about the top champions keeping them down. I think that sentiment is far more universal than players simply being mad their personal favorites aren't top tier (which I feel you were hinting to at the end).

1999 01 172 votes

I don't believe that. ordinarily bad champions can succeed in nemesis because you remove most of their competition. I won a game as a taric jungle where I dominated. taric is not a good jungler. they had a karthus jungler to go against me. One game I actually got picked a good champion(udyr) and it was ludicrous how badly I stomped the other team. it took their entire team to kill me and I had something like 17 kills.

you're the biggest fish in a tiny pond.

MidEvilKnight3k2 votes

The champs are not that bad, the way you screw people over are team comps. Some champs really are that bad at jungling for example. The main reason you might find that taric jungle works is because people don't know how to use their champions (or their champs were just as poorly assigned to a position).

For example, giving the other team 5 adcs with limited cc could be a good strategy depending on what they give you, but replacing one of those adcs with Braum would be stupid. However giving them a team with Braum and other low damage tanks (leona, rammus, taric, etc) could work well.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

{quoted}

The champs are not that bad, the way you screw people over are team comps. Some champs really are that bad at jungling for example. The main reason you might find that taric jungle works is because people don't know how to use their champions (or their champs were just as poorly assigned to a position).

For example, giving the other team 5 adcs with limited cc could be a good strategy depending on what they give you, but replacing one of those adcs with Braum would be stupid. However giving them a team with Braum and other low damage tanks (leona, rammus, taric, etc) could work well.

My favorite moment in this mode so far: "ok enemy team has 4 tanks... ill give them MF" "BUT WHY" "durr MF sucks"

The5lacker2 votes

That's the thing I never understand: OMG WHY DOESN'T RIOT JUST BUFF EVERYONE TO X'S LEVEL!"

Because they'd have to buff quite literally EVERYONE.

10Tickler1 votes

The enemy thought they were smart, Gave me Soraka.

I took her mid and out-farmed, out-killed Evelynn, pushing mid to nexus with ease

Even with their Jg naut camping them.

I love when people underestimate AP soraka's Damage

Legostrike4 votes

never give people soraka. her heals man. her heals.

10Tickler2 votes

{quoted}

never give people soraka. her heals man. her heals.

Heals nothing, I mean, sure, I got a few good ults off, but I was doubling, and eventually tripling Evelynn's farm with ease, poking her out of lane, and with my new snare? Her engages all got shut right down as I healed myself off of her rapidly-dying form. It was glorious

ArkenStorm1 votes

ap raka is still a thing guys

GloriousKaiser1 votes

Great discussion, I have nothing to add. But Nemesis Draft = Games without #LC$B!GPLAY$E$PORT$.

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