Balance Team, I appluad your conviction on 5.6 notes.

Kouga··161 votes·9,353 views

Let's talk Nidalee.

Nid's a polarizing champion where, when she succeeds, generates more hate posts on forums around the world than most other champions combined. That said, with tank junglers picking up steam, Nidalee's got some very real challenges coming her way. Hard engage has traditionally been one of Nidalee's big weaknesses - when she can't dictate the pace of a fight by wearing down her opponents - so if big, beefy champs are constantly running at her face (and this becomes a trend), we want to see what that world looks like before taking action.

For those of you who just want to QQ and rage about champions - this thread isn't for you. Downvote me and move along.

This is meant for Riot and specifically the balance department. They have easily the hardest job in this company and I can't imagine the kind of heat they get both from the rest of Riot and from the community. Every time you nerf or buff a champion, there will be whiplash. Fans of a champion will celebrate and laud every tiny buff and get thirsty for more, where they will spit and hiss every time you nerf their main. The reverse goes for players who either can't play those champions or consistently lose to them.

And I understand this feeling. With over 120 champions in the game, lines are going to be drawn in the sand. I do it myself. For the life of me I cannot win against Rumble. That little mechayordle is my freakin' kryptonite. So yeah, I grin every time I see him get nerfed. But just because I struggle against that Champion doesn't mean that they must be nerfed into the ground.

Anyway, I'm getting off track. There has been a ton of rage over our girl Nidalee. But the way Riot addressed it, I'm actually on board with this. They are acknowledging the concerns, even if it feels like a "We understand that you feel this way." But they are looking at the bigger picture, which I don't think most players can honestly admit to. How often do we base a Champion's health on a single game's performance? But come on guys we know how it works. We've seen the cycles - a Champion gets a buff, people try them out because Yay Buffs! Inevitably more people start learning how to play them correctly and begin to flesh out their strengths and now it seems like you come across one in every single game. Or they get reworked and all of your old strategies and expectations are no longer effective.

Look tl,dr; Bully for you, balance team, for sticking to your guns on this. Its easy to just go with the popular opinion and cave to player pressure, but I respect anyone who is able to say, "We know what we're doing, just hang in there with us a little longer."

Because, guys, they're right. Everyone who isn't crying about Nid in the forums are shouting about the new Tank Meta. I love the idea of a Tank meta. They've been out of the spotlight for a while, but Tanks and Supports are, in my opinion, the most engaging and interesting champions out there. Unlike everyone else, their job isn't just to murder everyone. That's the problem with assassins and the UberFighters, is the game just boils down to which assassin gets fed and they just kill you before you can even do anything. It really feels powerless - but Tanks and Supports, when used and balanced correctly, give the team tools to respond to these threats. And Nidalee, despite her strengths, is still a poke/siege champion with a good engage, but she can't deal with the kind of focused disruption that comes when Tanks become strong. She'll really have to be careful about Pouncing into a teamfight when that frontline can fold in on her.

Anyway just wanted to say, props to you guys.

-Kouga

(If you happen to agree with what I have to say, consider checking out my discussion about Mobility and Balance and if any Reds happen to read through, please consider checking out my Reward System Proposal that could actually tie in really well with the new Mastery system.)

140 Comments

Kate Kane41 votes

Tanks and Supports are, in my opinion, the most engaging

I see what you did there.

(I don't really have anything else to add BUT yeah, I totally agree. All of the props to the Balance Team for just... you know, having to deal with us. XD)

Kouga25 votes

Pun was actually unintended but I'll totally take credit for that xD

blueberrypancake8 votes

#PunsOfDamage item 3078

BastionKross15 votes

What I'm worried about is that, if tanks are keeping Nid's power in check, what happens when tanks inevitably get nerfed? The cougar runs wild once again. The balance team most likely won't nerf her right along with the tanks, in any event.

Nid's kit isn't in the best place either; with her loaded abilities, two passives, and ability to be fun to play but unfun to play against she reminds me of a CertainlyT champion. And that's not a good thing.

Kouga4 votes

{quoted}

What I'm worried about is that, if tanks are keeping Nid's power in check, what happens when tanks inevitably get nerfed? The cougar runs wild once again. The balance team most likely won't nerf her right along with the tanks, in any event.

Nid's kit isn't in the best place either; with her loaded abilities, two passives, and ability to be fun to play but unfun to play against she reminds me of a CertainlyT champion. And that's not a good thing.

Well, by the Balance Team's current logic, they aren't nerfing her right now because of the rise of tank viability. So if they do become truly unviable (and a few appropriate nerfs here and there doesn't undermine the entire class as a whole), then the same argument dictates that Nidalee should receive a few nerfs to pull her back since her counters would be less present. Yeah it'll take some time, because they won't know how much stronger she'll be without those counters present (because in the mean time there will be nerfs and buffs to other roles and Champions)

So my suggestion? Remember their discussion now. If all tanks get nerfed, then we'll remind them of this and see if they don't follow through. But I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt until then.

BastionKross8 votes

So my suggestion? Remember their discussion now. If all tanks get nerfed, then we'll remind them of this and see if they don't follow through. But I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt until then.

I remember when I had faith in the balance team too. I was young and naive back then. I still remember my face when Riot promised the support role wouldn't be the booby prize at the beginning of season 4, that utility scaling would let support champs enjoy the same growth of other roles. I remember when they talked about fixing the camera four years ago and just recently got around to it. I remember when Ashe was the counter to mobility. I remember when compensating champs didn't mean leaving them weak for several patches.

Call me jaded if you want, but I didn't get this way by accident. Riot says a lot of things, whether or not they actually follow through on those things is another story.

Kouga7 votes

Oh, I know they have. And I completely understand why so many are jaded. Trust me - I've been playing this game since beta. So I've seen when they make mistakes and how they handle them; and they've made plenty. And they will continue to do so. But they have also shown that League is an ever evolving thing. Trends come and go, but they continue to try to keep things new and interesting. With this many champions, yes, some are going to get long neglected (Oh hi Yorick I didn't see you there) but what can you ask with 120+ champions?

Anyway, if the player believes that Riot will never ever fix anything right and they just hate us all - then why even play? I'm going to continue to play League because I have fun doing so, and I'll continue to be optimistic. I'll try to be understanding when they screw up and hopefully call them out when they fail to follow through. But if I ever get to the point where I completely lose faith that they will ever make proper adjustments - then I'd stop playing the game. For me, at least, I can't have one without the other.

Kouga11 votes

{quoted}

Nid's kit isn't in the best place either; with her loaded abilities, two passives, and ability to be fun to play but unfun to play against she reminds me of a CertainlyT champion. And that's not a good thing.

Also, a few other Champions have 2 passives so its not like she's totally unique in this. And honestly I find her more fun now than before - at least I understand the consequences of getting Marked by her and now when she pounces on me I feel like it was more my own fault than something out of my control completely. And CT gets a lot of undeserved hate. His champions might be risky with how strong their mechanics can be, but that's how we progress as a game. If you don't include new mechanics then all you're doing is moving the exact same numbers around. "Mages Deal X Damage in Y Seconds." Mechanics give us options, they don't limit them. And more options is a good thing.

BastionKross18 votes

Don't confuse "Overloaded kits" with "New mechanics". Thresh's lantern is something new and interesting, but that's not the reason he's strong and people pick him. It's because his kit is so jam packed with utility that he could do no damage at all and still be a reasonable pick. The same reasoning applies to most CerT champs: Yes they bring something new, but they're also full of other stuff in addition.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

Yeah, poor thresh is balanced quite well, but since he is so versatile and useful in every way that he is everyone's go to pick.

Oleandervine6 votes

{quoted}

Also, a few other Champions have 2 passives so its not like she's totally unique in this. And honestly I find her more fun now than before - at least I understand the consequences of getting Marked by her and now when she pounces on me I feel like it was more my own fault than something out of my control completely. And CT gets a lot of undeserved hate. His champions might be risky with how strong their mechanics can be, but that's how we progress as a game. If you don't include new mechanics then all you're doing is moving the exact same numbers around. "Mages Deal X Damage in Y Seconds." Mechanics give us options, they don't limit them. And more options is a good thing.

CertainlyT has good ideas, yes, but he tends to cram them all into the same champion and then proceeds to give them mechanics which are so unique to the game that extremely few opponents are capable of reacting to them. Its one thing to be creative and produce a well thought out champion. Its something else entirely to look at the meta game, pick all of the elements you think are strong from every champion you see and then proceed to cram them all into the same kit. 9/10 times his champions are insanely OP monsters on release and if that isn't a sign of bad design, I don't know what is. It would be better if his champions were released severely under tuned and gradually buffed to a good place rather than plague us all with cheese the size of the moon.

ScurvyNave5 votes

{quoted}

CertainlyT has good ideas, yes, but he tends to cram them all into the same champion and then proceeds to give them mechanics which are so unique to the game that extremely few opponents are capable of reacting to them. Its one thing to be creative and produce a well thought out champion. Its something else entirely to look at the meta game, pick all of the elements you think are strong from every champion you see and then proceed to cram them all into the same kit. 9/10 times his champions are insanely OP monsters on release and if that isn't a sign of bad design, I don't know what is. It would be better if his champions were released severely under tuned and gradually buffed to a good place rather than plague us all with cheese the size of the moon.

Yeah when the guys past is: Darius Zed Thresh Zyra Yasuo and Kalista

You think someone at Riot would mention something to him about his fanatic love of breaking the game with new champion releases? Everything he designed was stupidly OP on release and some still are.

My main issue is Kalista, where ADC's high damage output and carry potential is limited by their mobility he decide to make the new adc the most kiting and mobile character in game. (and like most of his champs a duo-passive). Not to mention free, non- item space using wards.

r11na7 votes

With the exception of Darius, all the other champs are among my favourites, so I think he is doing a great job. More CertainlyT champs!

ScurvyNave14 votes

{quoted}

With the exception of Darius, all the other champs are among my favourites, so I think he is doing a great job. More CertainlyT champs!

I'll agree most of his champions are fun to play but they result in a power and mobility creep.

A champion being cool to play is only 1/2 of the equation. They also need to be fun to play against and that is where CertainlyT fails. He has great ideas but shoves them into overpowered and overloaded champions that outshine nearly all of their predecessors making the game less fun and less balanced.

A Miss Fortune5 votes

Agreed 100%

CertainlyT should just be dropped as a champion designer, he's proven he can't make balanced champions and continues to prove he's incompetent.

Delioth4 votes

I disagree with just throwing him out as a designer- just put him on a duo with anyone else. Let them collaborate on an idea, and then let CertainlyT design one ability and collaborate on an ultimate. The other guy/gal can do the other two abilities to balance around CertainlyT's ability to make sure that the kit as a whole makes sense and doesn't have too many crazy through creative mechanics. Just make sure the other guy/gal has more authority on the champ to pull out extra passives that CertainlyT adds to the champ.

He is about the most creative designer out there, he just needs a colleague to limit the amount of extra stuff he can jam into that.

Anidan2 votes

That's what they did for Zyra (I think Coronach and Morello helped with her), and out of his list of champions Zyra and Darius are the only ones I don't despise.

He's a good and creative designer, but he needs someone to pull on his metaphorical reins if he starts going crazy. If he had someone to do that for him, the game could be more interesting and more healthy, rather than letting a bunch of Zeds, Yasuos and Kalista run around with a bunch of superfluous power.

Retillin1 votes

I guess I don't know if he is a good designer. If you build a beautiful bridge, but it can't handle the traffic it is supposed to or requires someone to come in and redo it to make it functional did you not just fail in designing it?

Anidan1 votes

Y'know, that's a good point. I never thought of it that way.

He's certainly creative, I'll give him that. But 'creative,' while an indication of something good, isn't the only requirement.

Kouga5 votes

Darius isn't really that game breaking. Thresh is fun and unique, but requires coordination and skill - one good Thresh on a terrible team cannot carry a game. And Zyra? When was the last time someone QQ'd about her? But I like the idea of Zyra even if I've never found her gameplay terribly compelling. But her theme is really neat. Personally, I love Yasuo, I have ever since his release.

Yes, he pushes the game. And yes, sometimes he breaks it. Hard. Like with a sledgehammer. But Mechanics are harder to balance than Stats. And in the end, I think Mechanics are more engaging than just comparing numbers and seeing whose are bigger.

Troy2426215 votes

{quoted}

Also, a few other Champions have 2 passives so its not like she's totally unique in this. And honestly I find her more fun now than before - at least I understand the consequences of getting Marked by her and now when she pounces on me I feel like it was more my own fault than something out of my control completely. And CT gets a lot of undeserved hate. His champions might be risky with how strong their mechanics can be, but that's how we progress as a game. If you don't include new mechanics then all you're doing is moving the exact same numbers around. "Mages Deal X Damage in Y Seconds." Mechanics give us options, they don't limit them. And more options is a good thing.

[TL;DR at the bottom]

I respectfully disagree. CertainlyT seems to have a completely different basis for champion design than most designers. From many peoples' perspective, he has consistently failed to make healthy designs. Counterplay and toxicity are repeatedly occurring issues with his champions.

Some may argue that his champions are unique and fun to use. That may be so, but I'd argue the fun of the 5 enemy players supersedes the one player playing it. Additionally, the importance of game health and balance far exceeds the uniqueness of his designs. Meaning, while his designs are cool and all, that isn't as important as how they work in-game.

Others say that he uses a DOTA-esque style of design where everything would be equally broken by design and therefore balance out. In DOTA 2, this may work (Although they statistically have worse balance than League comparing their Dotabuff stats to our LoLKing stats), what this argument is neglecting to account for is the context of the game. Most champions have a weakness that I can point to, something the enemy team can actively exploit. With CT's champions, they too frequently lack this and have a plethora of strengths and kit synergy but a distinct lack of counterplay. They may have weaknesses, but they don't have strong, meaningful and consistently available counterplay. This is the crux of why they feel awful to play against. It often feels that, unless they make a mistake, the counterplay is severely lacking.

More still may point out that counterpicks exist. Riot has already stated that this isn't sufficient, but I'll elaborate on it a bit. When counterpicks are the predominant form of counterplay to a champion, the result is binary match-ups with low interaction. For example, take a non-CertainlyT champion, Volibear. Are you ranged with CC? You'll kite him and, unless you make a tremendous mistake, will likely beat him. If you're a melee champion in the same situation, your best bet is to just not fight him at all and avoid him. That's not fun, it's not healthy and it's poorly designed. It's binary and it should be discouraged.

All in all, the fact is that CertainlyT simply values uniqueness and fun of use over game health and counterplay. This doesn't necessarily make him a bad designer, but does what makes his designs bad is that they're in League of Legends. Perhaps in other games his designs would be great, but in context to LoL, his designs are simply unhealthy. This is why I fundamentally disagree with the premise of his designs. He consistently follows the same formula and it doesn't gel well with the game, and this is reflected in the fact that they almost all cause problems.

TL;DR/Summary: He places emphasis on unique and fun-to-use designs over game health, balance and counterplay, and because it is in contrast to other champion designs, in the context of LoL, it makes them bad designs.

Battlecast Sona3 votes

You can't use dotabuff/lolking scores to assign balance. The biggest indicator is that at the last International, there was only ONE HERO that was not picked at least once. Only 1. If League had those kinds of stats I would be over the moon - but on a competitive level, that means Dota 2 has characters that are niche but still viable, unlike League's champions that are niche and not viable for that very reason.

(additionally, the hero was Meepo and he was also banned once so he must've been banned against the one team that would play him, lol).

Zelnorack1 votes

You also have to remember that Meepo is a very, very complex hero. He is basically 5 in 1.

Late game he is a one man goon-squad. Early game he is nothing more than worthless. One Meepo dies, they all die.

Once he gets an Aghanim's.. Then everything comes up Geomancer. All his clones gain all his stat bonuses, and, I think, his on-hit effects like Eye of Skadi, and Daedalus rather than just his boots, and abilities.

Each clone has their own mana pool and cooldowns. He has a massive chain snare with his net, and a pretty sizable amount of burst from his poof.

Once Meepo gets behind, he's even worse than others who fall behind. Zeus could kill his clone with one ult if worse comes to worse. Not counting Refresher Orb and a Aghanim's Sceptre.

When Meepo is played by someone good with him.. He is a one man team. a 9 on 5 is what that fight literally becomes. It's both hilarious to watch, and horrifying to experience.

Incognonymous14 votes

Hop off Riot's dick. Downvoted.

Kouga113 votes

Keep the hate coming.

Incognonymous7 votes

{quoted}

Keep the hate coming.

The hates not for you, but for Riot. You keep on riding that dick. I'm not going to judge you.

Purple Packet17 votes

Mmm, with all this talk of nether regions, you'd be lucky if anyone didn't judge you.

Incognonymous3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Purple Packet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aFWaxGp6,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-25T16:31:57.207+0000)

Mmm, with all this talk of nether regions, you'd be lucky if anyone didn't judge you.

I just like the implications of someone being a "dick-rider" as a negative from a acquiescence to authority. Like this bootlicker OP. I don't have anything against people who ride literal dicks, its the figurative ones. Judge all you want.

"Conviction" my ass. This is blatant favoritism and lazyness at its finest. Riot's trademark at this point.

Purple Packet17 votes

Wait, wait, with a vocabulary that sophisticated, do you really need to be slinging around the D-Word to prove a point?

Incognonymous6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Purple Packet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aFWaxGp6,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-25T16:45:04.132+0000)

Wait, wait, with a vocabulary that sophisticated, do you really need to be slinging around the D-Word to prove a point?

Dick is barely a bad word. Swear words are like flavor enhancers. It's the little piece of parsley that comes out with your dish.

Purple Packet12 votes

{quoted}

Dick is barely a bad word. Swear words are like flavor enhancers. It's the little piece of parsley that comes out with your dish.

Agh, let me rephrase that.

Do you need to slap the D-Word on the OP to prove a point? I mean, surely you've considered his or her feelings, right?

Incognonymous3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Purple Packet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aFWaxGp6,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-25T17:24:50.013+0000)

Agh, let me rephrase that.

Do you need to slap the D-Word on the OP to prove a point? I mean, surely you've considered his or her feelings, right?

Anyone who would praise Riot for the perpetuation of cancer doesn't need their feelings considered. I take issue with the very premise, in fact. What about tank junglers being strong makes Nid weak? The fact that she can't kill them in one combo?

Purple Packet9 votes

{quoted}

Anyone who would praise Riot for the perpetuation of cancer doesn't need their feelings considered. I take issue with the very premise, in fact. What about tank junglers being strong makes Nid weak? The fact that she can't kill them in one combo?

I mean, hey, bro, I may or may not agree with what the OP is saying but, at the end of the day, he or she is human and deserves the dignity of not being degraded for his or her opinion.

Like it or not, bro, we're all in this together.

Incognonymous3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Purple Packet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aFWaxGp6,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-25T17:35:23.058+0000)

I mean, hey, bro, I may or may not agree with what the OP is saying but, at the end of the day, he or she is human and deserves the dignity of not being degraded for his or her opinion.

Like it or not, bro, we're all in this together.

How can we be in this together if the OP is actively working against what is essentially the health of the game?

Purple Packet8 votes

{quoted}

How can we be in this together if the OP is actively working against what is essentially the health of the game?

Because, the words that we choose to use can potentially go beyond the scope of this game.

Kouga16 votes

I appreciate you who offering to stick up for me, Packet, but I'm a grown adult and plenty capable of ignoring negativity myself :)

I would answer Incognonymous's question about tanks and Nidalee, but I said in my OP that I'm not looking to QQ about Champions. I was simply looking at Riot's response. And honestly, it doesn't matter to me if it was Nidalee they had mentioned, or Lee, or Zed. Its the fact that Riot said, "Yes, we hear you. We are working on balancing A, B and C. Let's see how that effects D, E and F before we go handing out more nerfs."

Given the general abrasiveness and lack of class of this community, as Incog here has so graciously demonstrated for us all, I was simply giving props to them for standing their ground.

Purple Packet7 votes

{quoted}

I appreciate you who offering to stick up for me, Packet, but I'm a grown adult and plenty capable of ignoring negativity myself :)

I would answer Incognonymous's question about tanks and Nidalee, but I said in my OP that I'm not looking to QQ about Champions. I was simply looking at Riot's response. And honestly, it doesn't matter to me if it was Nidalee they had mentioned, or Lee, or Zed. Its the fact that Riot said, "Yes, we hear you. We are working on balancing A, B and C. Let's see how that effects D, E and F before we go handing out more nerfs."

Given the general abrasiveness and lack of class of this community, as Incog here has so graciously demonstrated for us all, I was simply giving props to them for standing their ground.

I hear ya, bro/sis, and God bless. Mama Bear Syndrome, deactivated!

Auz the Ripper31 votes

Udyr "Our rage is beyond your control"

Ace Access 22 votes

MasterYi "anger gives motivation without purpose"

TheTyeGuy2 votes

"Our rage is definitely not in your control."

wop5 votes

wow, do none of Incognonymous' comments show up, or are they all below the Thresh hold?

Blue Moon Wolf9 votes

honestly this patch was a bit of a roller coaster for me yay Veigar buffs :D NOOO, item 3112 costs more D: yay, buffs to Bard :D damn it, they got rid of item 3285 D: oh wait, it's only temporary to get a better build path :D OH, it's only gone on TT and CS :D NO NEW SKINS THIS PATCH DX jumps on the game WHAT? NEW Teemo SKIN O.O https://hackadaycom.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/roller-coaster-test.gif?w=260&h=260

Agidyne6 votes

I would agree with them if they weren't nerfing tanks in the exact same patch they posted this.

Kouga15 votes

If you're talking about Sejuani, I'm not entirely opposed to that nerf. The damage one I'm a little on the fence about although with the added presence of Cinderhulk I can see why they went with it. But her Ult nerf? Totally okay with that. She needs to be able to actually land the damn thing to get the rewards from it. The splash range for how heavy that slow was made it feel really oppressive; even if you reacted to it, you'd still get caught unless you burned all your mobility (if you have any to begin with)

Agidyne10 votes

{quoted}

If you're talking about Sejuani, I'm not entirely opposed to that nerf. The damage one I'm a little on the fence about although with the added presence of Cinderhulk I can see why they went with it. But her Ult nerf? Totally okay with that. She needs to be able to actually land the damn thing to get the rewards from it. The splash range for how heavy that slow was made it feel really oppressive; even if you reacted to it, you'd still get caught unless you burned all your mobility (if you have any to begin with)

Sejuani is obviously broken in this patch. The nerfs were very much needed.

The thing is, she has been Broken for like, 2 weeks?!? and she already had nerfs coming her way.

But the thing about her being Broken is that, despite being Broken, you don't feel like her kit is stupid to play against.

It feels like its a numbers issue, and that's honestly fine.


The thing is that Nidalee, no matter how weak or strong she is, feels stupid to play against. It's like playing a weird version of wack-a-mole.

She lands one javelin and you are fucked. MR itemization still sucks to this very day.

Her rework accomplished nothing. Her playstyle feels the exact same way as pre rework. Land a spear and pounce in.


The same is applied to LeBlanc. They feel like LeBlanc is in a good spot atm.

Which is also bullshit. She can literally burst a target down in less than than a fraction of a second.

And also happens to be hyper mobile and her passive is also really strong when used correctly.

Not because of the clone jukes but because of the 1 sec stealth that can save her from certain death.

The only reason they think she is "in a good spot" is because she counters mages like Ziggs, which they think might become too strong this patch with the reduced mana costs and buffed Unholy Grail.


But anyway. What do I know.

Sailor Mint5 votes

Sejuani was already doing pretty well before 5.5, everyone knew she was going to get nerfed.

Her rework accomplished nothing. Her playstyle feels the exact same way as pre rework. Land a spear and pounce in.

She didn't use Cougar form as anything but a mobility move pre-rework. Spears also hit for a lot more.

skippersd5 votes

Lot more?

No. It was 3/4-4/5 of an adc's health, now it's 1/2. Yes, it's lower, but she got targeted dash should she land the spear. An stupid ult cd reset.

What was always offered up as a solution, is the ammo system. When nida has ie. 6 spears, her poke is a lot less oppressive, and you feel like it actually matters that you dodged the Q.

Funny thing is, Kassadin was one of the best counters for nidalee (NOT tanks whom she can kite and kill slowly), because he had similar mobility with CC, but no range. Ofc kassa was gutted, couse reasons.

What DOES work against Nidalee is engaging her TEAM. Not messing around, trying to fight her, but ignoring her completely. That's a really rewarding, intuitive (someone snipes me from afar, so my best bet is completely ignore the guy) counterplay. THIS is why i hate nidalee. Ofc her currently retarded early game helps.

The Whamboozler6 votes

Point taken OP, but I think the problem with Nidalee isn't that she was strong in that particular meta. It's that when she's strong there's no real way to play around her. Either the champs that can deal with her are good, or they're not and she's hideously good herself. Her kit is designed for her her to want very little interaction with the enemy unless she's landed a spear and is going for a deathblow. However, she's got a lot of tools to play keep away as well, unlike many other long-range poke mages (Xerath, Ziggs, Lux). She also has her heal to avoid being poked out of lane herself, and her little spammy no-mana cost dash for escaping. Nidalee almost NEVER needs to make herself vulnerable, and once she's landed a spear, even if by sheer dumb luck, she can delete the person she struck if she isn't content with just having chunked off half their health.

Even if Nidalee isn't a popular pick in the new, tanky meta... it doesn't make her kit well-designed. When the tank meta eventually passes, I'd bet she goes right back to being a monster again unless she's nerfed along the way. She probably needs a rework of some sort, her kit as is is really, really hard to balance out.

Kouga4 votes

While she does have mobility, remember that she doesn't have any forms of CC. Xerath has a stun and slow (not to mention artillery range), Ziggs has an AoE slow field and a knock back, and Lux has a two-target snare. Yes, Nidalee has mobility if she's near the brush - and let's be honest she always is - but she has to deal with a lack of actual CC. Not saying it justifies her mobility completely, but its a factor.

LeviathanN76 votes

A smart man once said:Stupid and ignorant people always existed on this planet, but the fact that internet came up,means that stupidity can reach us all in every form...

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