Haha wow I really got outplayed here

Salron·May 20, 2017·38 votes·2,033 views

Creep block is a good mechanic in this game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haFoxQpplAE This is where i clicked to path http://puu.sh/vVLbA/e33039cfbf.jpg

54 Comments

ThefrostyvikingMay 20, 20179 votes

.............You sir, know that minions being able to be in the way is an intentional feature yes?

That is why there are passive's that allows one to walk through them and why those passives are valuable. Same as various abilities that allows passage, if everyone could do it then those abilities wouldn't be nearly as good.

So in essence you didn't get outplayed, you played yourself infront of zed and died for it before coming into these boards to whine about something that is quite well known.

And yes, creep blocking is good, because it's a core feature of minions aside from being the main way to siege towers and gain gold.

Not to mention that situation could never have happened had you not pulled the minions the way you did.

Hella KaiserMay 20, 201718 votes

the fact that it's an intended feature doesn't mean that it isn't bad.

losing control of your character by an effect of luck is bullshit. immagine that everyone had a 1% chance of not being able to move for one second every time they click to move. it would be a terrible game design. now, tell me why a bad AI has to decide if i live, or if i die?

ThefrostyvikingMay 20, 20177 votes

{quoted}

the fact that it's an intended feature doesn't mean that it isn't bad.

losing control of your character by an effect of luck is bullshit. immagine that everyone had a 1% chance of not being able to move for one second every time they click to move. it would be a terrible game design. now, tell me why a bad AI has to decide if i live, or if i die?

It's not luck when it's controllable though, and that situation presented was just the Op digging their own grave by being careless ._.

In fact it couldn't even have happened unless OP pulled those minions and walked the way they did. Therefore it's almost a splendid example of setting oneself up for it.

Nightshade RoseMay 20, 20174 votes

But how minions move are basicly luck, since he could walk throught first, but after minions shifted he couldn't retreat to his orginal possition.

Hella KaiserMay 20, 20175 votes

yep, minions' AI is so terrible that it's impossible to predict their movement or how the character will interact with them... random dashes, random changes in target, random everything...

ThefrostyvikingMay 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nightshade Rose,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hY8R2mn3,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-20T20:49:54.659+0000)

But how minions move are basicly luck, since he could walk throught first, but after minions shifted he couldn't retreat to his orginal possition.

Walked through? There werent any minions there at first, but then he pulled the enemy minions there and his own naturally came running right after.

And as for logic.-.....have you ever heard of a commander that can just randomly leap ontop of his horse and ride right through his own soldiers lines without caring for order at all?

Nightshade RoseMay 21, 20171 votes

As for logic, have you ever heard Soldiers blocking way and unmoving to prevent their commander from advancing(not talking about them saving him)? Or Preventing their tanks from advancing?

How they shift is luck, they could've shifted so theres a passable way for champion to pass hell he litteraly had a way to go through at first, because if it weren't there at firsthis champion would've walked around them instead of trying to go throught them at first.

ThefrostyvikingMay 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nightshade Rose,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hY8R2mn3,comment-id=000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-05-21T10:57:49.146+0000)

As for logic, have you ever heard Soldiers blocking way and unmoving to prevent their commander from advancing(not talking about them saving him)? Or Preventing their tanks from advancing?

How they shift is luck, they could've shifted so theres a passable way for champion to pass hell he litteraly had a way to go through at first, because if it weren't there at firsthis champion would've walked around them instead of trying to go throught them at first.

No medival soldiers engaged in a crazyed melee have ever had much time to spend thinking about what their superiors are doing, they tend to be busy fighting or standing in dense formations which don't really support free movement from someone trying to run through.

That is the "based on reality" argument.

As for the rest.

Yes it is indeed luck on how they shift. and there was a way there at first.

Before the minions moved in, because if you looked you woulda noticed that the first time he clicked to move there the minions were only still moving in.

And he just happened to be temporarely blocked by 2 of his own, then those 2 went on to fight against some enemy minions thus creating a "wall" which his character then tried to walk around,..,,only to get stuck because a new wall appeared when the remaining minions moved in.

I can't speak for everyone but as i saw it was terribly obvious that it was going to happen just looking at how he pulled the minions the way he did.

I really can't describe it any other way than digging ones own grave by shackling oneself to an anchor, cutting oneself with a dagger all over and then throwing said anchor into a shark populated sea.

Isn't it terribly strange to complain about sharks attacking after that? That is how i view this to some degree.

Nightshade RoseMay 22, 20171 votes

No medival soldiers engaged in a crazyed melee have ever had much time to spend thinking about what their superiors are doing, they tend to be busy fighting or standing in dense formations which don't really support free movement from someone trying to run through.

They don't spend time thinking about what they superiors doing? But they need commands from their superiors to move in formation, to break formation or to change formation. Sure melee combat during a war was crazy, but were talking about trained soldiers and not random villager with a spear. Soldiers know how to move, when to move, what you're speaking of crazed melee sounds is basicly warriors rage, on which honorbal wariors - soldiers fround upon because instead of fighting properly while keeping an eye on your surroundings you were to randomly dish out at anybody, ally or enemy.

Also about formations, first row of formation are usually heavy soldiers with shields, etc. roman turtole formation, while it was surrounded from every side with shields to defend against projectiles such as arrows or rocks, it still had few archers inside so when they're ready, they could open formation and let archers shoot through opening. Tortole formation was basicly a tank - high defence main means of damage projectails and if you get close you'd get speared, but it was a slow moving formation. Even before turtole formations there were simmilar formations with front row with shields, middle row barserkers/warriors and back row archers, because if enemy were to go straight for the formation front row could open up - let him through, so middle row can kill him instead of allowing enemy to break formation.

ThefrostyvikingMay 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nightshade Rose,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hY8R2mn3,comment-id=00000001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-22T11:09:36.503+0000)

I think you are thinking of is a bit different compared to what i am so i shall attempt to clarify my thoughts to some extent.

Minions charging eachother head on is kind of like two small armies or groups ruhsing eachother frontal style.

The moment they class it's instantly a chaotic melee with little more than "stab the guy's upfront and hope that the guys next to you don't get stabbed and replaced"

In that kinda scenario it's highly unlikely that any kind of tactics is likely to work except "preserve one's own good health by slaying anyone wishing otherwise" .

Thus for a huge group of guys running around in a mad rush with various melee weapons fighting others it would be unusual if they have the time or presence of mind to see what's happening around them properly.

And from that i based my statement that it would be strange if soldiers had the time to bother with what the commanders are shouting about, the guy trying to stab them won't wait a moment while they try to overhear the CO yelling out orders.

Nightshade RoseMay 23, 20171 votes

Oh i see you see minions as mear civilians with sticks fighting for their lives and i see them as trained soldiers. Well i think they're more of soldiers because when enemy champion hits you near them they start attacking that champion instead of continuing their battle with other minions. So they do put themselves in danger for their commander(you) like real worriors did, but they prioritise closest enemy which often is enemy minions.

You see, you descraibe minions as rebel vilagers at best, that care only about their own good instead of armys sucess. But minions act as an army with a goal to protect their CO, which includes taking damge from towers and distracting enemy minions. While first you might think "well they prevent CO from getting into danger" but as we see in video above, inpassible terrain also prevents said CO from escaping danger, thus ally minions shouldn't block their own teammates.

ThefrostyvikingMay 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nightshade Rose,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hY8R2mn3,comment-id=0000000100000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-23T13:18:27.197+0000)

Oh i see you see minions as mear civilians with sticks fighting for their lives and i see them as trained soldiers. Well i think they're more of soldiers because when enemy champion hits you near them they start attacking that champion instead of continuing their battle with other minions. So they do put themselves in danger for their commander(you) like real worriors did, but they prioritise closest enemy which often is enemy minions.

You see, you descraibe minions as rebel vilagers at best, that care only about their own good instead of armys sucess. But minions act as an army with a goal to protect their CO, which includes taking damge from towers and distracting enemy minions. While first you might think "well they prevent CO from getting into danger" but as we see in video above, inpassible terrain also prevents said CO from escaping danger, thus ally minions shouldn't block their own teammates.

My view is more on the line of conscripted and barely trained people rather than rebel villagers x)

If they really were trained soldiers wouldn't the beefiest and most durable go upfront when sieging towers? (cannon minions)

But they are loyal, very loyal.

Thus it would make sense if they do basic formations that quickly fall apart to some degree when a melee breaks out and then being unable to respond to sudden changes.

Altho now that i think about it i am fairly sure that i read somewhere that minions were animated constructs? Can't say where i did though.

Nightshade RoseMay 25, 20171 votes

yes minions are basicly animated sheets of cloth, but they're animated as soldier.

Cannon minions are ranged and beefy thus they stay in the middle providing extra damage AND staying as last line of defence to caster minions that are ranged but has low health. Brute minions are beefier then caster so they do go upfront, just like super minions, that are beefy grant buff to their ally minions and are melee.

NilokMay 20, 20178 votes

Random Tripping in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. It was an intended feature, and everyone loathed it. It was removed in the next version.

Hella KaiserMay 20, 20172 votes

i wonder why...

NilokMay 20, 20172 votes

Random Tripping in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. It was an intended feature, and everyone loathed it. It was removed in the next version.

ThefrostyvikingMay 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Random Tripping in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. It was an intended feature, and everyone loathed it. It was removed in the next version.

Minions being solid and impossible to walk through without external help (with a few exceptions) has been here since the very beginning.

It's unlikely to go away any time soon.

NilokMay 20, 20173 votes

And? Tradition isn't a reason not to improve game design, it's an excuse.

Possibly the reason it won't go away is because people can't mod League of Legends like they can Brawl and demonstrably improve the game, see Project: M before Smash 4. I wonder what would happen if the community could redesign the game from the ground up like the Smash community had the opportunity to.

ThefrostyvikingMay 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And? Tradition isn't a reason not to improve game design, it's an excuse.

Possibly the reason it won't go away is because people can't mod League of Legends like they can Brawl and demonstrably improve the game, see Project: M before Smash 4. I wonder what would happen if the community could redesign the game from the ground up like the Smash community had the opportunity to.

I doubt it would be hard for Riot to make it possible for everyone to phase through minions since there are already several ways to do so. And making the game easier to change from a coding perspective was one of the reasons for a new client,.....i think?

Rather, with the fact that they haven't actually changed it nor said anything about it, hints at the likeliness that they think it's a good mechanic that they wish too keep.

NilokMay 20, 20171 votes

It most likely isn't hard. Most of the changes the Project: M team did to Brawl wasn't hard except for the hitbox redesign, turning of tripping was a single line of code. However, it was that the developer thought it was a good idea to have random tripping, when it wasn't and the players hated it as they felt they were getting screwed out of a good play.

This isn't a question in spaghetti code, this is all game design.

You are arguing that the developer is right, and the players are wrong. However, if the players are getting frustrated at the design, then something is wrong and needs to be changed.

ThefrostyvikingMay 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It most likely isn't hard. Most of the changes the Project: M team did to Brawl wasn't hard except for the hitbox redesign, turning of tripping was a single line of code. However, it was that the developer thought it was a good idea to have random tripping, when it wasn't and the players hated it as they felt they were getting screwed out of a good play.

This isn't a question in spaghetti code, this is all game design.

You are arguing that the developer is right, and the players are wrong. However, if the players are getting frustrated at the design, then something is wrong and needs to be changed.

What i am argueing for, is that a minority of players are finding this frustrating and most of us do in fact not care or find it to be a good thing that adds complexity to the game.

These boards are always flooded with people complaining about things, and like most of them, creep block is far from as bad as some make it sound.

NilokMay 20, 20171 votes

It is a random element that is often out of the player's control, or at the very least is unpredictable when it happens. That doesn't sound like good game design. It may add complexity, but complexity is not the same a depth, and too much complexity is a bad thing. The primary issue is that it causes pathing issues, or complete lockups of player movement when players are trapping in a bad pathing loop.

When players lose control of their character for unintended reasons, that is bad game design. You may not mind it, or find it is good that your opponent is unable to move as they wanted to due to pathing issues so you can kill them, but that doesn't make it good game design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU

ThefrostyvikingMay 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Random element? It's so easy to trigger and it's very clear why.

And while i can understand that it's frustrating to get stuck in the middle of a wave it simply doesn't happen if you are careful and thus for the majority it's not even an issue.

It's like calling a shallow pond a sea, someone might drown because they fell in but it's probably because they can't swim rather than it being hard to handle.

Sexy Jack RabbitMay 21, 20171 votes

Infinite wards was around still about mid-season 4, still doesn't mean it can't leave. That's a pretty weak argument.

ThefrostyvikingMay 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Infinite wards was around still about mid-season 4, still doesn't mean it can't leave. That's a pretty weak argument.

But it was hardly infinite wards though, because no one could afford to buy that many with only a few exceptions.

The limiter was the gold needed to buy them.

Who is TaliyahMay 20, 20176 votes

Aye a fellow Taliyah player. It's really sad to see you getting outplayed by your own minions. Happens to everyone of us :/

GoobersonMay 20, 20173 votes

It feels like it's becoming worse and worse every Patch. Especially Renekton feels very clunky

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 20, 20173 votes

This isn't creep block, just u missplaying.

AwesomeGuyDjMay 21, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hY8R2mn3,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-05-20T21:14:08.932+0000)

This isn't creep block, just u missplaying.

it is creep block, regardless of him moving in the way to attract them. he could not walk through minions, therefore it was creep block. The stupidest fucking feature in the game.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 21, 20171 votes

i creep block... but in his video its him playing badly

Ultra Rapid FyreMay 20, 20173 votes

bad positioning is bad. Sucks to suck

FooDangMay 20, 20172 votes

You know why the creep block happened? You took aggro and funneled all the melee minions into 1 spot. Not saying creep block is foreseeable or fun but that one was preventable. Stupid AI needs to learn to open a hole when a champion is walking through.

SpecterVonBarenMay 20, 20172 votes

I don't know what it is about this and last patch but creep block is horrible right now.

MarshbouyMay 20, 20171 votes

Happens to everyone fairly equally, (with notable exceptions) No point in complaining about it. Riot has stated repeatedly that creep block is unfixable.

Who is TaliyahMay 20, 20171 votes

Why is it unfixable. It all started when they took away boots enchantments if I remember correctly.

MarshbouyMay 20, 20172 votes

https://youtu.be/s1_50T5GwZ8 Watch this. Creep block is explained by this. Imma do a quick explanation here. Companies, especially new, noobier companies, will code a game poorly or accidentally create a bug. Sometimes it's hard to find these bugs until it's way too late. Changing it or trying to fix it could cause HUGE problems in the game down the line, or require so many resources that you would basically have to remake the game.

Hella KaiserMay 20, 20171 votes

apply fizz's passive only on allied minions to every champ. FIXED IT

Alex h8721May 20, 20171 votes

Wow, so this means when i stand behind minions so ahri can't easily land her charm "its just the game favoring me" thank you for this revelation good sir.

Hella KaiserMay 20, 20171 votes

no, it means that allied minions could kill you.

Alex h8721May 20, 20171 votes

Yeah they can but i don't think this is that kind of creepblock, I think that kind is when you are trying to run away/chase and are slowed down by your own minions and get killed or the enemy escapes and I can understand why this would be complained about.

This is simply taliyah getting her Q blocked by minions (which is her only ability that can be blocked by minions/other enemy champs), and I don't consider this to be something worthy of complaining about, because why shouldn't minions be able to be a meat shield for some abilities, (jinx W, Lucian R, taliyah Q etc,) when there are also abilities like ahri Q which cannot be blocked by either minions of other champs.

The OP says "Oh i feel so outplayed" sarcastically, but really zed didn't outplay but he outplayed himself/misplayed

Hella KaiserMay 20, 20171 votes

he's not complaining about his Q getting blocked.

he's complaining about creeps being in the way and the pathing making him go back instead of following the path he clicked. he wanted to go between the wall and the minions, but the pathing made him go back and around the minions from the right, when he clicked on the left. putting him in range of zed's ult without him wanting to go back.

if you se the video shows taliyah go into a direction and the pic that describe where he clicked pointing a different direction than the one that taliyah followed.

you just misunderstood, no big deal.

Alex h8721May 20, 20171 votes

Ah i see, how he turned back around right into range of zed's ult. I get it, my bad.

Hella KaiserMay 20, 20171 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ZelorxonMay 20, 20171 votes

While i agree that the creepblock is fucking retarded and should be at least mitigated you played incorrectly there:

While it might seem a good move to harass zed as he's clearing the ward (which should have been placed near your own wall so you can hit him trough your own wall) you should have given up the ward, and positioned yourself on the same line of the melee minions, the fact that you have the range advantage means that you have to freeze the wave and harass zed with autos and spells, keeping both zed away from the lane and the minions dying at the same speed so you don't get behind in levels, after lv7 just afk push. Stay away from the wave so that zed is forced to choose if harass you or damage the wave, as the only way he should be able to hit you with his Q is when you're locked in your auto animation, also taliyah has such a strong waveclear, keep at bay and roaming potential that trying to fight your enemy laner is a complete waste of time, just harass and play the map, if you can kill him even better, but don't actively seek it, place yourself on the sides of the lane so that you create 4 circles per side and you can push in the wave, you can also use the small corners that are created between your circles to hit Q max range from near/inside the bushes.

FilDaFunkMay 20, 20171 votes

Would've been worse had those minions been on your side. At least they did their job.

Sir FuzziMay 20, 20171 votes

To be fair, you're in a club named 'SUCC' and your name is 'Face The Win.' Zed probably savoured that experience.

Yes, creep block is kind of garbo, but Riot seems to stick to the features people wholly dislike. I don't remember anyone hating the aura items and they're all gone now. It seems like if it's universally disliked, everyone (except Fizz and Kass) has to put up with it. Parity in suffering?

General Esdeath May 21, 20171 votes

I got stuck in between Rift Herald and a wall the other day. Couldn't move at all.

DoozkuMay 21, 20171 votes

Creep Block is a necessary mechanic, but every time something like this happens I feel bullshited. Why do minions have to be so weird? Why can games end if you leave everything alone for the entire match? Why can't the minions be much more stable and standardized, like in Dota? That game has minion block, but its actually consistent and can even be used for certain strategies and tricks.

Synnx7May 21, 20171 votes

Its incredible how ignorant and dumb ppl on the boards are. SO this "mechanic" according to them is fine.

No wonder this game has the worst community ever. Said their Zed after my match which was 3 vs 5 and we hardly stomped them before we eventually lost, only to hear him : " EZ xD , cry more bitch"