Why mages has only 1 armor item?

CppL·May 5, 2016·103 votes·5,129 views

Why are we forced to buy zhonyas vs ad champs? its been 6 years now ,this item is getting boring...Give us something new.I dont give a damn about active anymore ,i would rather have more ap and armor.

176 Comments

SlythionMay 5, 201614 votes

Maybe because they aren't supposed to be tanking anything as ranged ap glass-cannons?

JbelsMay 5, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Maybe because they aren't supposed to be tanking anything as ranged ap glass-cannons?

At the same time though, ADCs and Assassins got away with it for patces on end with the abuse cases of Maw and Steraks

SlythionMay 5, 20168 votes

Assasins require getting close to the target to dish out damage and lose out on a lot of burst if they build both maw and steraks, while adc's are simply not functional with 2 fighter items + boots.

Sure, there are exceptions ( Graves ), but bottom line is most of these squish champs only build 1 item of this kind.

So while AD have item 3156 (which was nerfed so not nearly as god-tier as before) and item 3053 , item 3026 , AP have tanky items such as item 3116 item 3151 item 3027 item 3157 .

It's pretty even when you take a look at the broader picture

RG VeleanMay 5, 20166 votes

So for ad you have an item that gives you AD, MR, and a shield when a certain amount of magic damage is dealt to you, an armour item with health, and MR/Armour with a revive passive.

Where as for AP, you have, flat health with AP and a slow, Flat health with Ap and a DoT, Scaling health AP and Mana, THEN you finally have an armour item with AP and cdr, with a stasis active that has a 120 sec cooldown. Yeah, it's totally even.

TL;DR AD: 2 MR items AP: 1 armour item

WenderwallMay 5, 20163 votes

item 3156 and item 3053 share the passive so it's back to 1 Item. item 3026 is not an AD or AP item, anyone can use it.

RG VeleanMay 5, 20162 votes

Well, up until this patch item 3156 and item 3053 both triggered as two seperate passives, so it was 2. Plus, both give different defensive stats. The difference between this stuff though is that not only does Maw give you MR and AD, but it also gives you 10 Armour Pen.

SO when you buy a seeker's for your Zhonyas, your 45 armour is cut down to 35 instantly.

Basically, Maw is more useful than Zhonyas is stat wise. Not only do you get damage and survivability, but you can also cut through your opponents survivability

WenderwallMay 5, 20163 votes

Let's not talking about armor/ Magic pen items. There are 4 armor pen items which not all can be used, Max of 1 item per adc. While Mages ( including support) can use/stack multiple magic pen/reduction items. item 3001 + item 3020 + item 3151 etc.

Toa InnodenceMay 5, 20165 votes

item 3812 item 3153 item 3139 item 3074 item 3072 item 3156 i'd consider these a mix of fully offensive and fully defensive items in a sense

but with the removal of wota, there isn't as much return for some non-support mages save for a few exceptions Ahri Morgana Swain Chogath Lissandra who have spellvamp or self healing with damage components.

any ad champion can build lifesteal, but mages don't have that sort of sustain. as a result, any disparity in damage to resistance factors will cause a heavier upset, especially when it is directly countered by item 3147 item 3036 item 3033 item 3142 item 3071 (oh look at this last one!) item 3156

meanwhile, in order to get offensive and armor defensive items for a mage you have two options on summoner's rift: item 3157 (an active that isn't always useful, and item 3050 (which is a support item. which is surprisingly little when you look at the life-steal items mentioned at the begining.

for pen items for mages, item 3001 item 3151 item 3020 item 3135 do an okay job, but it only really helps if you have sufficient base damages and reduces your effectiveness by trading off a needlessly large rod item, which is an okay trade off, but it doesn't happen for the ad counterparts which have significant ad save for maybe item 3153 .

people just want one or two medium armor items with either medium ap or moderate utility comparable to item 3025 or item 3156

CppLMay 5, 201633 votes

{quoted}

Maybe because they aren't supposed to be tanking anything as ranged ap glass-cannons?

i dont want to be tanking ,i just dont wanna get almost 1 shoted by a single zed W-E-Q-thunderlords combo...

SlythionMay 5, 201612 votes

I don't understand why mages deserve and extra protection than assassins (if you don't want to die to an assasin, don't get combo'd as a mage class) or ADC's. In terms of items, it's pretty equal. To complain that assassins are killing you as a mage is like complaining that an Alistar shouldn't be able soak up your team's damage.

There is a reason why Zed's winrate is below 50% in Plat+ elo, it's because his teamfight is crap and players know how to focus him out

CppLMay 5, 20169 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand why mages deserve and extra protection than assassins (if you don't want to die to an assasin, don't get combo'd as a mage class) or ADC's. In terms of items, it's pretty equal. To complain that assassins are killing you as a mage is like complaining that an Alistar shouldn't be able soak up your team's damage.

There is a reason why Zed's winrate is below 50% in Plat+ elo, it's because his teamfight is crap and players know how to focus him out

Its not that easy to not get combed by an assasin as mage.After all, assasins are the most mobile class in the game.And if you didint notice yet Mobility>everything else.

SlythionMay 5, 20168 votes

My point is that your main complaint is that an assassin is doing their job to kill squish and generally non-mobile champions. It's not fair for the solution to be "make me tankier to make assassins not be able to do their job"

Mobility creep is a problem, but simply making every class tankier is certainly not the solution.

CppLMay 5, 20165 votes

{quoted}

My point is that your main complaint is that an assassin is doing their job to kill squish and generally non-mobile champions. It's not fair for the solution to be "make me tankier to make assassins not be able to do their job"

Mobility creep is a problem, but simply making every class tankier is certainly not the solution.

i dont want to be tanky as a rammus.I want some tankines so can at least fight back.Cause its not fun to get 1 shoted bya ssasin in less than a half second.

AlwaysByMySideMay 5, 201610 votes

{quoted}

i dont want to be tanky as a rammus.I want some tankines so can at least fight back.Cause its not fun to get 1 shoted bya ssasin in less than a half second.

Much more fun to be one shot by a mage from the fog of war, right?

Fucking whiny ass delusional mage mains.

AMYS GRAVEMay 5, 20168 votes

most mages dont have the burst to one shot you under any reasonable circumstances.
mages dont have the mobility to get to you unless you're facechecking a bush, learn to ward.
If you're an assassin you can use your mobility to get away or to engage, If you chose not to run away from a mage than can kill you that's your fault because you had the tools to disengage. The person with mobility gets to decide when to fight, and if you can't properly analyze the threats around you then thats on you.

AlwaysByMySideMay 5, 20168 votes

{quoted}

mages dont have the burst to one shot you under any reasonable circumstances.

Boy, I guess I must have imagined the time I played Annie in a losing game and was still able to dunk on their fed Vayne with a single combo, or the time Annie did that to me while I was playing Vayne. Or the time Veigar pressed R on any AP champion before this patch. Or the time I one combo'd any given squishy as Cho'gath with a Q>W>R combo.

You think ADCs buy maw of malmortius because they want to? Try have to.

Also, when you say one-shot, do you mean with literally one ability? No one did that except Veigar before this patch, including assassins, without being extremely fed.

mages dont have the mobility to get to you unless you're facechecking a bush, learn to ward.

Gee, well I guess it's a good thing they are long-ranged then, huh? Oh poor Lux (she's not overpowered anymore though) without any mobility, having to settle for being able to nuke you from over a thousand units away...

Mages aren't melee, they don't have to be in base combat with you to do damage. Face checking a bush? Please.

If you're an assassin you can use your mobility to get away or to engage, If you chose not to run away from a mage than can kill you that's your fault because you had the tools to disengage. The person with mobility gets to decide when to fight, and if you can't properly analyze the threats around you then thats on you.

Why are you framing this as if I main assassins?

I don't play assassins you idiot, nor do I have any particular hatred for mages in general. I just hate the entitled idiots who play them and like to pretend that their class is oh so mistreated and weak, despite the best mid laners almost invariably being mages.

And no, the person with mobility doesn't always get to decide when to fight when the person with much longer crowd control and range uses that crowd control and range to crowd control you and then burst you. Short of standing under your turret and hoping they push right from the start, the mage has the ability to engage a fight on the assassin, and vice versa.

AMYS GRAVEMay 5, 20166 votes

Boy, I guess I must have imagined the time I played Annie in a losing game and was still able to dunk on their fed Vayne with a single combo,

Old annie was an assassin, and they lowered her burst just to avoid that situation.

You think ADCs buy maw of malmortius because they want to? Try have to.

Having an item that is ridiculously stat efficient even without its passive will do that. Same thing happened to ZZrot, Zhonyas, IE, and countless other items throughout the history of the game.

Gee, well I guess it's a good thing they are long-ranged then, huh?

If you are in their range then you know you are in danger. They dont jump around constantly so its not like their range should ever surprise you. Lux is an annoying little *%#@ though. Way too safe for her long range burst.

Why are you framing this as if I main assassins?

i assumed, my appologies,

I don't play assassins you idiot,

Oh, you dont want to actually discuss things... you just want to flame people over the internet. Gotcha.

I just hate the entitled idiots who play them and like to pretend that their class is oh so mistreated and weak, despite the best mid laners almost invariably being mages.

https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.banRate&order=descend&roleSort=Middle

That's why 4 of the top 5 most played midlaners are ... assassins? (Ekko is at 1, he's a more general problem)

And no, the person with mobility doesn't always get to decide when to fight when the person with much longer crowd control and range uses that crowd control and range to crowd control you and then burst you.

Name a ranged cc that isn't telegraphed in some way... they all are because its called counterplay, the thing that assassins lack.

AsydeMay 5, 201610 votes

{quoted}

My point is that your main complaint is that an assassin is doing their job to kill squish and generally non-mobile champions. It's not fair for the solution to be "make me tankier to make assassins not be able to do their job"

Mobility creep is a problem, but simply making every class tankier is certainly not the solution.

I tend to agree with Slythion in this case. The whole point of mages are to be high damage ability based champions who need skill and (depending on the champion) mobility in order to not get blown up. Giving them damage + defense combination items removes this intended weakness without losing their intended strength.

However despite this you still have the best defense + offense item in the game, Zhonyas, which pretty much counters any assassins kit if used properly. Giving you more damage + defensive items would only further cover your weakness without compromising your strength.

And if your not worried about compromising your strength there is already a myriad of tanky items out there for you.

Assassins intended strength is to pretty much be able to one combo any squishy target, but leaving themselves very exposed after their cycle has ended. This is why items like Zhonyas and Mercurial exist; They aren't intended to be your go-to item every game, but rather a reactionary purchase to give you options against assassins if you should face one. Even with these items, it is still very much up to your own skill and ability to negate their burst, which if successful, you gain a significant advantage against them.

AMYS GRAVEMay 5, 20165 votes

Assassins intended strength is to pretty much be able to one combo any squishy target, but leaving themselves very exposed after their cycle has ended.

Turns out that's not a very fair way to design a champion. The worst times playing league are when the enemy assassin gets to decide that you don't get to play league of legends today. I dont really care if my team cleans up the kill every time and we win the game. It means that i stare at a grey screen every time i leave base and in that case why am i even playing.

AsydeMay 5, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Turns out that's not a very fair way to design a champion. The worst times playing league are when the enemy assassin gets to decide that you don't get to play league of legends today. I dont really care if my team cleans up the kill every time and we win the game. It means that i stare at a grey screen every time i leave base and in that case why am i even playing.

I can understand your frustration, as I think we've all been in that position. But I don't agree that it's not a fair way to design a champion. Not every champion needs to be able to 1v1 or go toe-to-toe with every other champion. There will always (and should be) certain types of champs that struggle against others, and those champs have champs they struggle against as well.

Take rock paper scissors for example: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Rock-paper-scissors.svg/2000px-Rock-paper-scissors.svg.png

Each one has a clear enemies they struggle against, and clear enemies they are strong against. Thankfully league is not as binary (win/lose) as Rock Paper Scissors, but the concept applies. Because there will definitely be champions you struggle against more than others, it becomes that much more important to A: Choose the right champs (if you can), but more importantly B: Learn how to overcome, or at least survive, those challenges. Even in LCS, there are players who struggle against certain champs and can feed (looking at you faker/azir).

Possibly the single best thing you can do if you struggle against a certain champ is to play said champ. A lot. Every time I do this I learn so much about what each champ is capable of and their windows of weakness. I come out so much stronger and conveniently have added a new champ to my repertoire.

HellioningMay 6, 20162 votes

And if Riot didn't treat the laning phase as sacred, I wouldn't really care that I can't 1v1 every other champion in the game.

But they do, which means I can't play mid without fighting an assassin about half the time.

LankPantsMay 5, 201620 votes

There is a reason why Zed's winrate is below 50% in Plat+ elo, it's because his teamfight is crap and players know how to focus him out

It's not. In fact it's at its highest in Diamond.

AeszarckMay 5, 201611 votes

According to OP.GG, his win rate in Diamond was 49.5% in all of last week, and is 47.8% today.

Last month he was at 52.0% win rate, but we should be concerned about today and last week I think because those are most relevant.

EDIT: Downvoted for stating data...

FantasySniperMay 6, 20169 votes

According to leagueofgraphs.com, he has a 50% winrate that only increases with rank. But hey, at least his ban rate decreases while his pick rate increases - wait, that's not good.

Guy Fox TeemoMay 6, 20162 votes

Thats the idea though, thats what Riot wants to happen, you have MASSIVE RANGES, (A lot of health now), and burst damage of an assassin except in AOE Skill shots.

You're suppose to be the most vulnerable class as you provide the most damage and utility in fights. Already you can easily survive a combo with this build:

item 3151 item 3027 item 3157 item 3135 item 3089 item 3020

Lots of health, about 600 AP, 30 FLAT magic pen, % magic pen, and maximum percent health magic damage

WuWoMay 5, 201613 votes

Maybe introduce item 3170 to SR.

TotalJerkMay 6, 20163 votes

Mages wouldn't be buying it. The same fuckers that created the tank meta would be buying it.

Maximum MordeMay 5, 201610 votes

I play exclusively AP champions.

Zhonyas
Ninja Tabi
Health from RoA, Rylais, Liandries.
Runes

With the above you can actually be decently solid. If it still isn't enough, there isn't anything stopping you from picking up 1 tank armor item. If I'm playing a short range dive mage it'll usually be Sunfire or DMP so it still adds some damage/Mobility. Sometimes IBG. Otherwise Randuins cause everyone has 90 bazillion crit these days lol, and it adds a slow.

If you've only spent one item on a tank item, your damage is still going to be very high, plenty high enough to deal with an ADC or Assassin.

The only thing I wish is that they gave IBG it's AP back. I used to rush that as a counter build item vs AD mids cause it's build path, usefulness, and aquisition speed were far better early compared to Zhonyas.

Raka Flaka MDMay 5, 20168 votes

Stop playing glass cannons if you don't like being blown up.

AlüeMay 5, 201610 votes

item 3155 item 3139 item 3053 you mean ap glass cannons

RalanrMay 5, 20165 votes

item 3155 and item 3053 aren't suppose to stack anymore.

TeemoXNidaleeMay 5, 20164 votes

{quoted}

you mean ap glass cannons

item 3191 item 3157 item 3116 item 3027 item 3151

you have even more options

AlüeMay 5, 20164 votes

2 of those are the same item, 1 of them was revamped to work based off getting hit and the last one liandry's torment has sucked balls for the longest time. Rylais is the only decent one you've mentioned that works suitably well in an artillery mages kit.

TotalJerkMay 6, 20162 votes

Someone mathed it out to show that Liandry's statistically always better than Luden's aside from waveclear if you're building more than one damage item.

AlüeMay 6, 20161 votes

Do you have actual evidence? not trying to be rude i'm curious. Additionally how do you measure movement speed? i find that as one if not the most valuable stat in the game.

TotalJerkMay 6, 20162 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueofLegendsMeta/comments/4f4m5v/deathfire_touch_is_now_always_better_in_every/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueofLegendsMeta/comments/4fru48/video_explaining_math_and_code_behind_liandrys/

LuciferMay 6, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raka Flaka MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gzsLIyZL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-05-05T14:05:05.981+0000)

Stop playing glass cannons if you don't like being blown up.

so why do champions like zed get to build mercurial and MAW and still blow people up while being tanky x: ?

SonaTitsAndAssMay 5, 20166 votes

umm... well the is a thing called health you can also buy... like item 3151 item 3116 item 3027

AlüeMay 5, 20163 votes

item 3151 sorta useless other than the base stats, item 3116 ya it's a good item, item 3027 only decent for champions that are going to be receiving poke. Not useful for artillery mages.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 5, 20164 votes

well wtf do you want an akali to have 700 ap 300 armor and 300 mr with 5000 health? lets just give all the mages kayle ults for the whole game.

AlüeMay 5, 20164 votes

my point being riot has effectively seperated ad bruisers from adc's why is it so hard for them to do the same for ap champs?

RalanrMay 5, 20164 votes

Because AD champions have two forms of damage scaling while AP only have one?

CppLMay 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Because AD champions have two forms of damage scaling while AP only have one?

What do you mean?

Kitten of EvilMay 5, 20166 votes

Some scale off bonus AD (Poppy), some off total AD (Illaoi), and some off crits (almost any ADC).

AP items are perhaps a bit harder to balance because all the relevant spells scale with flat AP: assassins like Ekko, Fizz, and Diana, artillery like Xerath, and sustained damage mages like Swain.

Sure, they can tweak the AP ratios and the bases, but you have to assume that any AP item can be bought by a Lux, a Nautilus, and a Diana, and you have to balance it as though all three of them might use it.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 5, 20164 votes

because adcs rely more on autos and they can split this between abilitie, autos, on hit autos where attack speed is key and crit autos that need ad pen as and crit.

for ap mages and bruisers the is.... spells.... thats it.... just spells

Biff ManlyMay 6, 20163 votes

I mean, nothing's stopping you from buying an armor item. item 3110 is arguably great for mages, especially with the rebalance of Mana vs Mana Regen. You trade out some AP for it, but that's how the game works.

Before you point at item 3139 I will point out that Mana is an offensive stat. Mercurial vs Frozen Heart is like Rabadon's vs Infinity Edge

TecniacMay 6, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Biff Manly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gzsLIyZL,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2016-05-06T00:34:04.505+0000) Before you point at I will point out that Mana is an offensive stat. Mercurial vs Frozen Heart is like Rabadon's vs Infinity Edge

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg

Mercurial is extremely offensive (ad, ls) with a deffensive passive and a little mr, FH is just passively deffensive and for mana pool. You cant be serious.

Biff ManlyMay 6, 20162 votes

Yes, how silly of me. Lifesteal, the offensive stat. And mana, that thing the mage players were crying about for months before this update, because apparenty it was important to them, but you seem to think otherwise?

Nevermind me then~

TecniacMay 6, 20163 votes

Lifesteal gives you the chance to survive more time while fighting (Aggresive or deffensively). Mana gives you the chance to use more spells (Aggresive or deffensively).

Both are "neutral" stats, utility stats, as you can use them with both uses. But if you want to compare something, its just near to impossible, cause AD itemization is way better than AP itemization, even after the mage update.

And you can use frozen hearth being AD too, so not exclusive to ap (Hi Nasus Hecarim Warwick , etc)

Pierce The VealMay 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Why are we forced to buy zhonyas vs ad champs? its been 6 years now ,this item is getting boring...Give us something new.I dont give a damn about active anymore ,i would rather have more ap and armor.

Why aren't ad champions allowed an armor item, yet AP champs have at least 2 good mr items.