"Reduce her E base damage, increase her R cooldown and reduce her overall attack speed"
"Vayne is too strong early game for how huge her late game is, what should we do?"
"-3 AD lol"
blkKalameet21 votesWhy not just buff the adcs that are good lane bullies?
The problem right now is late game adcs are not threatened enough in the early game and are allowed to reach late game status much easier.
Anidan51 votesBecause "lane bullies are oppressive" (according to the boards, and the forums before it). Anyone who can be a lane bully is hated by the community unless they're so weak they can't do their job at that particular time.
blkKalameet27 votesIm just going to go ahead and say what im sure a lot of people are thinking then.
Then the boards general comunity is stupid.
The purpose of a lane bully is to take over the early game, but often times fall off late game. They are the counter balance to late game caries, and without them being able to do there job right late game caries are able to safely reach late game power.
Lane bullies + late game caries = balance in the adc meta.
Take away part of that and you end up with the problems we face now with the same couple champs in every game.
Critmaster Garen50 votes{quoted} Lane bullies + late game caries = balance in the adc meta.
all adc are lategame carries.
thats why adc lane bullies are a stupid idea. they just become top picks over the current picks.
the actual problem is that all adc go bot lane. there is no variety in their role. riot is trying to change thiongs up by making morde be able to lane on bot as a fighter, and kindred in the jungle.
but as long as adc are only ever facing each other 95% of the time, only 2 or 3 adc will ever have the top spots in any meta while the others are considered trash. because the guy who wins lane usually ends up carrying while the opposing adc doesnt.
so you pick the combination of whos the safest adc in lane and carries the hardest mid/lategame.
thats also why jinx is the strongest adc. she has no direct lane counter and strong carry potential. so shes a safe pick who always scales well.
Dengeden2 votesWell that's actually not the problem... lane swaps. Competitive is balanced around that little trick. Since freezing waves to deny the enemy top laner isn't viable so you need the best ADCs to push towers. Otherwise, you need to pick ADCs who can punish the ADCs who do that. Either by countering them in lane or by having a more useful mid/late game spike.
A Miss Fortune4 votesI think caster ADCs aren't really late game champions that can bully really well.
Vegas Dad1 votes[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwvY2Iib,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2015-10-14T06:16:40.605+0000)
I think caster ADCs aren't really late game champions that can bully really well.
Yeah this isnt true, too much sustain now and only retards eat that double up much, and even then you get to just walk away base if needed no fear of death.
A Miss Fortune6 votesLucian, Corki, and Ezreal really aren't late game hypercarries. Ezreal isn't all that great right now that he's useless past mid game, Corki has so much mixed damage that he won't even scratch tanks even with his true damage, and Lucian still is a wet noodle damage output.
Insane Pyromanic1 votesIdk about Lucian, ones with good mechanics are still pretty relevant late. Agree with ez and corki they do nothing outside first 10 min.
A Miss Fortune1 votesWhy pick Lucian as a late game champ though? Or at all. I still don't see why he's ever played.
Insane Pyromanic1 votescause hes safe and you cant ever count on anyone but yourself in solo que to peel, and his dmg is better than the other 2 super safe adcs ez and corki
Ultîma5 votesLucian is probably one of the most unsafe ADCs right now bar Urgot. His range is so small that he can get harassed by anyone even in spite of his Q. His burst is far weaker than almost every other ADC to boot. Until they revert that ridiculous nerf (how the hell do you justify Lucian having less range than Graves anyway) there won't be a reason to pick Lucian in ranked. The marksman rework cannot come fast enough.
Insane Pyromanic3 votesI love when everyone on gd thinks the game Is only lane phase.
Ultîma3 votesI too love it when people think that an abysmally short range on an ADC isn't a handicap at literally every stage of the game.
Auz the Ripper9 votesEzreal isn't useless lategame Sure he can't 1v5 like vayne, but he's damn good with a poke/disengage comp
Hyrum Graff1 votes[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwvY2Iib,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2015-10-14T06:16:40.605+0000)
I think caster ADCs aren't really late game champions that can bully really well.
To some extent, every mid-or-higher range adc is a lategame carry, simply because AD itemization makes them scale super hard. Even with no steroid, any character with IE / PD / PD / LW is going to do a lot of sustained damage.
kunkudunk3 votesI think this is a good point. If it was more viable to have non-adcs share a lane (mages that scale really well with items but not as much with levels, the morde attempt, things like that) and then support having adcs going elsewhere like kindred jungle, ez or varus mid, quinn or vayne top, then many champs could get a new lease on life simply because they fit certain comps better that aren't really run all that much right now.
BoxOfDOG1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwvY2Iib,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-14T02:04:56.312+0000)
all adc are lategame carries.
thats why adc lane bullies are a stupid idea. they just become top picks over the current picks.
the actual problem is that all adc go bot lane. there is no variety in their role. riot is trying to change thiongs up by making morde be able to lane on bot as a fighter, and kindred in the jungle.
but as long as adc are only ever facing each other 95% of the time, only 2 or 3 adc will ever have the top spots in any meta while the others are considered trash. because the guy who wins lane usually ends up carrying while the opposing adc doesnt.
so you pick the combination of whos the safest adc in lane and carries the hardest mid/lategame.
thats also why jinx is the strongest adc. she has no direct lane counter and strong carry potential. so shes a safe pick who always scales well.
"All ADCs are lategame carries"
Except, y'know.. Corki, Ezreal, Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Ashe, and Quinn..
Critmaster Garen2 votes"All ADCs are lategame carries"
Except, y'know.. Corki, Ezreal, Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Ashe, and Quinn..
how high?
if you think these guys dont carry lategame, then you massively screwed up with them.
BoxOfDOG1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwvY2Iib,comment-id=000200000000000000040000,timestamp=2015-10-15T11:22:59.377+0000)
how high?
if you think these guys dont carry lategame, then you massively screwed up with them.
Um, I don't think you know what a late game carry is..
There's such thing as a LATE GAME CHAMPION, and all of those are early-mid adcs. If every single adc in the game was meant for the late game, there would be no such thing as an early/mid game dominance comp, or a scaling comp. Get your head of your ass xD
Critmaster Garen1 votesUm, I don't think you know what a late game carry is..
There's such thing as a LATE GAME CHAMPION, and all of those are early-mid adcs. If every single adc in the game was meant for the late game, there would be no such thing as an early/mid game dominance comp, or a scaling comp. Get your head of your ass xD
i know what a lategame carry is, and all adc can carry lategame. just ebcause theyre not all good compared to each other doesnt mean theyre not all dealing a fuckton of damage with a full build.
BoxOfDOG1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwvY2Iib,comment-id=00020000000000000004000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-16T05:03:05.696+0000)
i know what a lategame carry is, and all adc can carry lategame. just ebcause theyre not all good compared to each other doesnt mean theyre not all dealing a fuckton of damage with a full build.
So when Caitlyn gets blown up by the enemy team in the late game, everyone has full build, everyone is level 18.. She's still good late game?
Critmaster Garen2 votesSo when Caitlyn gets blown up by the enemy team in the late game, everyone has full build, everyone is level 18.. She's still good late game?
if cait gets blown up with her stupid range, her net and her traps, then shes out of position.
BoxOfDOG1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwvY2Iib,comment-id=0002000000000000000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-16T05:25:11.531+0000)
if cait gets blown up with her stupid range, her net and her traps, then shes out of position.
You seriously don't understand the concept of a power dropoff, do you?
Critmaster Garen2 votesYou seriously don't understand the concept of a power dropoff, do you?
adc dont have that. their itemization guarantees lategame scaling. the only difference is how hard they scale into lategame compared to each other.
a lategame cait deals a fuckton of damage and can blow up another squishy in 2 or 3 autos with crits in there. there is no question that all adc scale into lategame.
Sightless668 votesAD carries have had just a couple of champs in most every game for as long as I can remember. They've never been well balanced. There is always a very clear set of best AD carries. The class needs reworking to make them more differentiated, and thankfully that's what we'll be getting in the preseason.
Hayaishi23 votesAD carries have had just a couple of champs in most every game for as long as I can remember. They've never been well balanced. There is always a very clear set of best AD carries. The class needs reworking to make them more differentiated, and thankfully that's what we'll be getting in the preseason.
hopefully. i really don't have high hopes about this rework.
Sightless663 votesI'm relatively optimistic. Their large-scale changes tend to work out decently. The AP item changes turned out very well and the jungle is generally more diverse than it was a season or two ago. I'd give it a fair shot of improving things.
RyanC5252 votesbut what about juggernaut overhaul
Sightless664 votesThe design was generally good for the juggernaut overhual. They're too strong and need to be nerfed a bit more, but I do think Garen, Darius, and Skarner all have much, much more interesting places in the game than they did before. Once they're balanced, the game will be strictly better than it was before the juggernaut changes.
There will be short-term balance concerns for pretty much any change. If we use that as the measure for success, pretty much every change they ever make or will make is a failure.
BastionKross2 votesI don't trust Riot with large scale changes. The jungle changes are half and half (no more magus, more jungle camp executions this season than the previous two seasons combined, devourer too powerful in two different forms this season), and the AP itemization was an exception to the rule.
The most obvious example of Riot handling large scale changes badly is the juggernaut changes, which made four champions broken for several patches and is still giving the balance team issues even now. They pretty much destroyed the identity of one of League's most "hue-tastic" champions.
Before that, we had the support changes in preseason 4, designed to make supports have a "power fantasy" and "bring diversity to the role". That little trick brought us utility scaling and killed off the majority of sustain and poke supports for two seasons now. Colossal failure that still hasn't been fixed; and support is still an unpopular role.
And don't get me started on the tank changes that actually went really well inspiring diversity and bringing tanks back into the spotlight the vast part of the season, then got toned back just in time for worlds because worlds demands flashy plays that tanks generally can't deliver. They had a good thing here, but screwed it up because the number of people buying tickets to worlds is a higher priority than overall game balance and health.
Kitten of Evil1 votesThey have improved the support role, though. I played back in Season 2, and I remember when support was the zero CS ward bitch. You grabbed a few gold income items and then spent all your income on wards.
BastionKross1 votesThe role is still a zero CS ward bitch. The difference now is that 
lets you grab one cs once in a while and 
is still a required support item despite a hard cap on the number of wards per player. However, supports now do have extra gold to play around with. They may be able to buy 
and tier two boots before the game ends! Money money, yeah yeah.
It's no secret why the support role is one of the slower ones to fill on teambuilder. It's still a crappy role to get stuck with if you don't want to play it, while other roles can be vastly rewarding even if you were forced into them. The support role is better now than before, but that's like saying Chernobyl is better now than ten years ago. While technically true there's less deadly radiation, it's still not a place you'd want to live.
Kitten of Evil3 votesOh I agree, it's still an often thankless role, but it is way better because no player can have more than 4 wards up. Before that limit, you as the support were expected to have wards up CONSTANTLY all over the map. And at least now there is some variety in support itemization. Gold items also scale better -- most of the old gold items gave you a couple gold per 10, now they reward you with a few gold for poking, or grabbing occasional CS, or letting your ally last-hit.
I main support, and I find it very difficult to win ranked games as support nowadays, because you can't always stop your ADC from eating a Thresh hook or a Blitz grab. And of course if you don't somehow miraculously save the ADC from their own stupidity, it's your fault.
NightOfLight2 votesI went 
support and do to my money runes, Targons procking of my q and Pickpocket Mastery working off my q I made enough bank to buy boots, sightstone, infinity edge, a frozen mallet and a Yommuus
Battlecast Sona1 votesThe 0cs ward bitch idea is not League's fault. This is supports in basically every game aside from HotS that's ever been a moba - there has always been the babysitters, the 0cs supports, etc - just in other games (like DotA for example) there are other ways to get gold and exp.
Also if you're finishing a game with just mikael's, sightstone, and tier 2 boots, it's probably just a 20 minute game (or you're bad at support) - it's REALLY easy to get items now. Like, REALLY easy. You just have to build the proper items and be efficient with your purchases, but I routinely hit 6 items as a support at totally normals times to hit 6 items (even if one of them is ruby sightstone...)
BastionKross1 votesjust in other games (like DotA for example) there are other ways to get gold and exp.
Yes, that's why the support role in League is worse than most other MOBAs. The problem is that Riot has had years to address the problem, and only attempted to on a major scale a single time. And even then, it wasn't that successful.
Battlecast Sona1 votessupport role is worlds better than it was before the preseason changes. It wasn't a colossal failure - support has and will probably continue to be the least popular role in the game, but saying the preseason changes were bad for supports is ridiculous. The changes significantly changed the landscape for supports and added more incentive to build damage on some of them when ahead (because of the utility scaling with AP)...
BastionKross1 votesFirst of all "worlds better" is a bit of an overstatement. Support in season 3 was the worst. The preseason changes helped a bit, but it also crippled supports that weren't tanks by making their utility scale with ability power (a horrible idea I'll get to in a bit), but also completely failed at making the support role anywhere as popular as the other roles. It made it better, but didn't actually address the problems with the role. Sort of like putting a bunch of condiments on a bad hotdog; the flavor will be improved, but the core will still be rotten and you'll taste it sooner or later.
Utility scaling was the worst thing to happen to the support role in years. You're the first person I've ever seen that actively defended it. Remember, when a champion had their utility scale with AP, their base utility was nerfed to accommodate. There were multiple problems with it:
Favoritism. Other roles didn't need to build 200 AP before their stuns and slows were significant, why did supports? Riot didn't have an answer other than "oops". The champions that did receive the scaling were quietly reworked to remove it after a few months. Except Kayle and Lulu, who retain theirs in a slightly weaker form. Although, you could argue neither one of them is primarily a support anymore.
Scaling. Someone did the math back then on the old forums, and it came out that most supports would have to build between 150 and 250 AP (depending on the specific champion) to make their utility break even with the utility that champion had before the scaling was given to them. Now, since we're talking about the poorest role in the game, 150 AP at minimum is a lot to ask for. And it wasn't even like 400 AP made Lulu speed you up 99% or made Sona heal you for obscene amounts, no. The scaling was pretty crappy because having powerful utility combined with a bunch of AP giving you damage would make those champions broken as hell. So even if a support did build 1000 AP, their utility wouldn't improve significantly than if they just had 300-400.
Power fantasy. Here's your power fantasy: we're going to nerf you, and make you build AP so that you can be the same power level you were before the nerf. That way, you'll feel as if you're getting stronger, when in reality you'll just have your early game weakened for no reason. Instead of letting supports build items and do things, that extra gold just bought the supports enough power to undo the nerfs they got because they were allowed to have more gold. Sound silly? We thought so too.
Utility scaling was a bad idea and Riot seems to have agreed that it was a mistake, since you don't see it much anymore.
LeeDark4 votesThe problem is that it is a rock paper scissors kind of thing. ALL ADC's are late game carries. The only question is which ones are strongest. If the lane bullies are strongest, the midgame and late game ADC's will be non-viable, simply because they'll never have enough farm to compete with the lane bully. It doesn't matter what kind of kit Vayne or Jinx has if Graves is two items ahead of them. If the late game ADC's dominate, like now, then the lane bullies and midgame ADC's fall aside, because they can't compete late, even with equal farm. And if the midgame ADC's are the best, the game doesn't last long enough for late game ADC's to matter, and the lane bullies can't stop the midgame ADC's from hitting their powerspike.
Insane Pyromanic2 votesYeah I never take the boards opinions seriously. They never have good ideas and they just complain about everything with no logical reason.
It also helps that most people on this board are low silver/bronze and aren't willing to actually learn the game.
Miraweave8 votesBecause "lane bullies are oppressive" (according to the boards, and the forums before it). Anyone who can be a lane bully is hated by the community unless they're so weak they can't do their job at that particular time.
No, it's because ADCs have the hardest scaling itemization in the game. Lane bullies bully their lane but then fall off. No ADC falls off simply by virtue of being ranged and building AD. If they have a strong earlygame you get to the kind of situation where bot lane is the only relevant lane and the first ADC to get a kill wins the game.
A Miss Fortune2 votesEver since Miss Fortune was buffed and is now one of the strongest/the strongest solo queue ADC again I've already been hearing complaints about her.
"hur dur miss fortune is walking up to that 1/3 health minion that im standing in front of better keep farming"
"gg rito carried game mf chunked me for 1/3 of my health with bf sword wtf gut this cancer champ freelo"
MohawkBird20 votesRiot's favoritism in a nutshell.
qetzel3 votesIt may be because a) Tristana's early game was much strongr than Vayne's b) Thanks to her range her late game was arguably stronger, although this was teamcomp dependent c) Riot is keeping changes small to keep this patch vaguely in line with Worlds d) Many marksmen will be getting changes in the preseason. Two patches ultimately isn't that long and the marksman landscape will change completely then. It may not be worth investing much time and energy into Vayne at this point if the changes will have to be undone shortly.
Mostly (a) and (d) though.
Saianna4 votes"thanks to her range"
If you speak about her base range, then:
Jinx Caitlyn
If you speak about passive:
That what she should do. That is her passive.
Look at Lissandra. She has low mana regen cause of that passive of hers. Instead of having normal mana regen AND her pasive. What are passives if not a special stat that makes champion unique? What's the point of having it if in the end Riot will nerf base stats, so nerfed base stats + passive = base stat of other champion?
What's the point?
Myrddin6 votesTrist is being picked, vayne is not. In a meta that heavily favours vayne.
Vayne didnt deserve nerfs, trist does.
SlaktarTasken3 votesAre you serious? What rock are you living under? "Vayne not picked".. rofl.
Myrddin2 votesyou'll watch worlds one day
Im sure of it
TurquoiseYoshi17 votesYou'll learn the difference between pros and Solo Queue one day
I'm sure of it
