Boards›Gameplay

Caitlyn went from a troll pick to “she needs nerf” without a single buff

Fisher No Chains··75 votes·6,916 views

With the only buff she got being Twitch and Tristana nerfs.

I’ve just seen a “are adcs really so op” post on the frontpage and I decided to answer with this thread, no hate towards Caitlyn because I don’t really mind her being strong over stuff like Tristana. Short answer: yes, as long as crit itemization is grossly underpriced AD carries will be strong.

Both Caitlyn and Ezreal are back to 22%+ playrate despite getting zero direct buffs. This should also make Riot think about how botlane is balanced. Nerf an adc = another one rises to crowd out diversity in the botlane, and then nerf again, meta shifts again, in an endless cycle.

The fact that ADCs are balanced in relation to each other could be an advantage though: instead of buffing the weak ones, why can’t you nerf the broken ones? It’s a win/win situation: lower the overall damage in the game and make botlane healthier, two things the community has been asking for forever.

68 Comments

saltran51 votes

"instead of buffing the weak ones, why can’t you nerf the broken ones?"

Wait, if Caitlyn and Ezreal are only meta now because the other strong adcs were already nerfed and not because they were buffed Rito is doing exactly what you want.

Fisher No Chains7 votes

Yeah but they did it like... once?

Jhin for example got buffed last patch, and I’m fairly sure that after the tabi nerfs and the upcoming Cait nerfs we’ll have another ad caster meta. You never know, Riot might decide to buff Tristana back because she “was hit too hard” just like they did with Kog (that’s also a candidate for nerfs, again).

Poop Jelly11 votes

They're ADC, underlined C. It's their job to carry and deal damage. Whether a hyper-carry, utility or caster, it's kinda their job to carry, or a part of the damage dealers.

I don't get what this anti-adc fuss is about. I recently played ranked a lot as support and honestly, it takes a lot more than bot winning lane to determine a game. Top and Mid play really major roles in determining a winning games, whether to get creative or simply carrying out the potential of their roles. ADCs have been more dominant as carry in the past, but these recent games Mid & Top have just as much power in causing a winning or losing game.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Only in literal shittier elo

Edit: There is a reason we went to call them marksmen and not ADC. Fiora, trynd, yi etc. are all ADCs too by definition yet they are not allowed to carry jackshit.

Poop Jelly7 votes

They can, just not in a way "marksmen" do. Those champs are most effective in skirmish, split push, or flanking from behind. I really grind my teeth when having to deal with these tactics, but they are strategies and they work if enemies don't watch out for them.

PB4UAME2 votes

Explain why RIOT officially changed their name to Marksmen from ADC specifically to remove your mentality, then.

Also, explain why the C in APC doesn't matter, but the C in ADC (which isn't even an official term anymore) supposedly somehow means anything for game balance, or the game's philosophy.

Poop Jelly4 votes

it does matter? Literally my whole point trying to make was that APC is taking more impact and has power to change a match outcome just as good as ADC, or "marksmen". Not only AP/Mid, but Top lane also contributes to the outcome of the match as well.

Steelflame3 votes

WE call them ADC because we are used to it. Riot has left that terminology behind for 3 seasons almost officially (although unofficially they still use it, because most of them are players, just like us, that are used to the terminology). They did this for multiple reasons, and one of the biggest was to allow the idea of breaking the stigma that only bot lane attack damage carries are allowed to carry, as well as opening up the ability to classify several other champions with similar gameplay patterns to ADC to be officially in the same class bracket, such as Azir, Kayle, or Teemo.

Hibeki30 votes

I think the problem here is they need to keep doing it.

It wasnt that cait was weak, it was just that Twitch and Tristana were more broken so there was no reason to pick. Once you nerf most of them to where it wasnt the ladder of buffs then they will all be on a relatively equal level.

Its just undoing the process before, of "This person was too strong so lets buff 2 people to match them" Eventually you will reach the starting point (which we never should have left)

Disembark4 votes

That's not gonna solve shit.

Literally making their kits feel worthless and make them carrier for items. Instead make their kits actually mean something instead.

Like lets say you nerf EVERY ADC to the ground? You'll legit start seeing shit like Kennen/Nidalee/TF building crit/aspeed bot lane.

Hibeki2 votes

Well no, you'll need to undo the powercreep process of crit items too. They were not always this efficient and cheap.

HaIlMonitor3 votes

Literally making their kits feel worthless and make them carrier for items. Instead make their kits actually mean something instead.

That is how ADC's work. Tons of damage for having Items....

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

"instead of buffing the weak ones, why can’t you nerf the broken ones?"

Wait, if Caitlyn and Ezreal are only meta now because the other strong adcs were already nerfed and not because they were buffed Rito is doing exactly what you want.

What are these ADC nerfs you speak of? Vayne and Kal are the only that received meaningful nerfs since like the start of season 7.

saltran2 votes

{quoted}

What are these ADC nerfs you speak of? Vayne and Kal are the only that received meaningful nerfs since like the start of season 7.

Tristana, Twicht and Kog Maw were also nerfed. And the FleetWork nerf was also good for a high range adc like Cait.

The fact that you call these nerfs meaningful nerfs but the nerfs leaded into those champs not being meta anymore doesn't speak really good about your analyst skills or the Boards reaction in general that also thought that the Jinx tweaks would make her extremly op.

saltran22 votes

Reverse Shyvanna, she's a dragon and turns into a woman with her ultimate.

Edit: Ignore this coment, was for other thread lul.

Zepper8 votes

Edit: Ignore this coment, was for other thread lul.

NO

Geauxx8 votes

I understand what you're trying to say... you're just going about it in the wrong way.

The nerf so and so argument so someone else becomes strong works for every lane and every champ.

Fisher No Chains6 votes

But it doesn’t work the same for other lanes.

ADCs as a class has a low number of champions compared to other classes, but the problem is not marksmen themselves but instead their itemization. As long as crit is allowed to be so cheap, yet so strong, ADCs will be strong and hard to balance for good.

Geauxx13 votes

They do work that way.

Ornn was an example. Swain is an example.

Toss is just about any tank in the top lane as an example.

Or not too long ago, malz got nerfed so others shined.

You're making the wrong argument for your case.

"champs get nerfed to the point other champs become strong" and try to use crit as a scapegoat but then use ezreal as an example right after?

Midlane mages stack cdr and blowup everyone until some of them get nerfed and others rise for it.

Fisher No Chains4 votes

But both Ornn and Swain got overbuffed before being broken levels of strong.

Malz got nerfed for the same reason: he got overbuffed when they gave his ult single target damage back, but it didn’t change much for champions that were already trash tier.

Lux? She’s getting buffed and she’s still garbage after seasons. Syndra? Still bad after the S7 nerfs to get her out of pro play. And a lot of other champions are still garbage after their counterparts got nerfed.

For adcs, instead, it’s different. Cait went from a 46% to a nearly 50% winrate and her playrate tripled after Tristana got nerfed. And Cait wasn’t even a bad pick vs her in the first place, it’s just that Tristana was so disgustingly strong that nerfing her allowed Cait to be at least playable again.

Basically, there are champions that maintain a 46%wr before AND after other champions get nerfed in top/mid/jung, thing that doesn’t really happen for botlane or specifically ad carries.

Geauxx4 votes

You're not even understanding the point that you originally started with.

Ornn got nerfed and others came up without being buffed for it, same thing with malz. trundle is meta now and he hasn't been buffed, others just got nerfed.

You're trying to hard to jump the bandwagon that when others want to join you, you cant even make the best argument for it.

Hell even olaf as another example just to toss that out there, became meta because others got nerfed in the jungle.

Anomander6 votes

Short answer: yes, as long as crit itemization is grossly underpriced AD carries will be strong.

ok

Both Caitlyn and Ezreal are back to 22%+ playrate despite getting zero direct buffs.

How does crit itemization help ezreal when he doesn't build crit??

Also I hate adc's.........

Troll for Trump5 votes

Every lane rotates.

The difference is ADCs rotate on a champ-by-champ basis

Mid, jg, top and supp rotate between tanks, divers, mages, assassins, wardens. enchanters, juggers etc.

So bot tends to feel a lot more limited

Hópe4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fisher No Chains,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grPu7yjt,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-07T19:33:44.330+0000)

With the only buff she got being Twitch and Tristana nerfs.

I’ve just seen a “are adcs really so op” post on the frontpage and I decided to answer with this thread, no hate towards Caitlyn because I don’t really mind her being strong over stuff like Tristana. Short answer: yes, as long as crit itemization is grossly underpriced AD carries will be strong.

Both Caitlyn and Ezreal are back to 22%+ playrate despite getting zero direct buffs. This should also make Riot think about how botlane is balanced. Nerf an adc = another one rises to crowd out diversity in the botlane, and then nerf again, meta shifts again, in an endless cycle.

The fact that ADCs are balanced in relation to each other could be an advantage though: instead of buffing the weak ones, why can’t you nerf the broken ones? It’s a win/win situation: lower the overall damage in the game and make botlane healthier, two things the community has been asking for forever.

Caitlyn is strong in pro play. Shes perfectly fine in our world...

LUXANNA HOSHIDO4 votes

literally said this exact same thing when trist was strong but people want to complain it's a kit problem

ThunderSkelett3 votes

? there are way worse and stronger adcs

saltran2 votes

{quoted}

? there are way worse and stronger adcs

But she's strong in pro play so whe will get nerfs, in SoloQ she's average but not op imo.

KlydeFrog3 votes

lol wow so let me explain about ez. its called mana flow band got buffed and SHOULD ALWAYS be taken on him. read what it does

saltran3 votes

I would add that OP is exaggerating a bit, Caitlyn had like 48% winrate, yeah she was weak in soloQ but that's really far from being troll pick.

Violet Fields3 votes

There's always going to be a strong ADC, in other words, all ADCs could be trash but there's always one that's going to be slightly better than the next.

Elohaven3 votes

Nerfing ADCs means tanks won't be shredded fast enough which causes issues for gameplay.

Caitlyn is actually not a tank shredder. She and Ezreal suck at this job mainly because their kits are for poking/targeting squishies. Caitlyn's entire kit is mitigated by a ninja tabi and Ezreal falls off quite hard. Right now, ADC state is fine. I believe Kai'Sa maybe an outlier but anyone else is in need of buffs or QoL changes. Top-laners, Jax, Irelia, and assassins like Zed are picking up again.

Conqueror really shifted the meta

Raiyza3 votes

Cait needs nerfs? Really?

Better nerf irelia. Oh wait...

Supreme Senpai693 votes

That's how it works. This game isn't a vacuum. If you buff Draven, Caitlyn's win rate is going to go up because Draven's play rate will go up and Caitlyn counters Draven. It is impossible to change one aspect of league without changing another. Balance is hard, yo.

deadlychuck3 votes

It's because it's not the champions which are particularly OP, it's the class.

By that I mean the items, masteries, and stats, surrounding the champions tailored specifically for them. If you were to remove all official marksmen from the game, then you'd see people complaining about how OP ADC TwistedFate Teemo Ahri Kennen Janna are

A Bad Nasus2 votes

The problem is adcs doing too much damage too early in the game with only a few items. I have no problem with their lategame since by design they should scale harder than other classes, but their earlygame needs to take a hit.

Aimléss2 votes

Wait, wth is Caitlyn getting nerfed she doesn't even have a 50% winrate on like any website... Such BS, I bet she's getting nerfed cause she's good in pro play as usual.

AFilthyCaitMain2 votes

LC$, thats why

ChaddyFantome2 votes

tbh, Caitlyn was already pretty stupid imho and has been for several seasons now.

Lit Corn2 votes

except that she actually wanst a " troll pick ", and since her as growth got buffed back and she can crit tower, while the current meta's goal is to destroy squishies with crits from high range , she became meta, not quite accurate as she was never a troll pick, and actually got a buff too ...

YuGiHo2 votes

i would live to see all adc get nerfed to the point where bot corki is viable again.

saltran2 votes

{quoted}

i would live to see all adc get nerfed to the point where bot corki is viable again.

Corky isn't viable bot because he was reworked into a midlaner.

Rendrex1 votes

{quoted}

Corky isn't viable bot because he was reworked into a midlaner.

He's could still work bot when your team has no magic damage.

YuGiHo2 votes

No, that was not riots intent with the rework thats just what wound up happening. like graves migrating to the jungle.

Śhunpo2 votes

Ezreal actually has a 40%+ pickrate....sorry to burst yo 22% bubble xD

Colton1471 votes

Caitlyn is still an auto-loss troll pick. She still has her non-existent damage and can no longer bully the enemy like what she is suppose to be doing.

saltran19 votes

{quoted}

Caitlyn is still an auto-loss troll pick. She still has her non-existent damage and can no longer bully the enemy like what she is suppose to be doing.

wat

Arcanine191 votes

Thats literally tristana in a nutshell

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Cait will always be top tier as long as she has even decent damage, because she can kite well by design.

That's the main criteria pro´s have when stacking peel on the kog or equivalent doesn't work.

DracosKasu1 votes

The adc complaint generally go down when the hypercarry arent meta. Personnally I would have remove the idea of hypercarry in-game because they are generally unfun for other player.

Teridax681 votes

I think this just goes to show how isolated balance really is in bot lane, and how misleading stats can be when viewed without context. In this particular case, the only reason many marksmen don't have massively higher win and play rates is because there are a handful of other marksmen who just so happen to be even more powerful. Because competition among marksmen still just boils down to who is statistically the most powerful, rather than who contributes a particular strength, it becomes this winner-takes-all situation where whichever two strongest marksmen get all the attention, and everyone else becomes comparatively much less relevant, even if they're still super-strong in their own right. De-isolating bot lane by introducing more classes, and making a bigger effort to diversify the marksman class, could go a long way towards painting a truer picture of the state of balance in bot lane, and preventing such balance islands from occurring in the future.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Fisher No Chains

I don’t like those changes to IP/Blue essence
General Discussion121 comments
314
votes
"Having a high pick rate and a high win rate is a signal of balance issues"
Gameplay166 comments
170
votes
Riot listened! They gave Swain a new haircut!
Memes & Games37 comments
131
votes
Every time Gnar is meta I ask myself why Frozen Mallet exists
Gameplay197 comments
104
votes
And there we go, another patch without Vayne or Riven nerfs
Gameplay113 comments
104
votes
"Zhonya's was nerfed because it gave too much in terms of both offensive and defensive power"
Gameplay200 comments
101
votes