"The jungle should be a little easier this season, especially for struggling champs before"

SIayton·Nov 20, 2015·135 votes·6,520 views

What?

The jungle has seriously never been harder, and the pool of playable jungle champions has shrunk once again. I've NEVER died in the jungle as rengar, yet today I died to red after the top laner took the small krug'S exp. That would have never happened before.

Last season you could do blue > wolves > red and have smite up for red and basically be at full health for ganks after red. Now you pretty much have to back after your third camp if you can even make it there. The two "sustain" jungle items don't offer nearly enough sustain to give anyone that isn't a top tier jungler enough sustain to actually get through a clear healthy.

Not to mention your power spike as a jungler is later because you get your jungle item later and are forced to spend more gold on stuff that doesn't give you combat stats. I don't get the decision behind it honestly. Jungling feels awful right now.

141 Comments

ValyrianBladeNov 20, 201547 votes

First, note that Riot made a small error. I believe they made camps spawn 15 seconds earlier but didn't make smite charges start 15 seconds earlier (it may have been 10 seconds earlier IIRC). They're going to fix this, but for now it will have an impact.

They're also going to decrease the MR of some of the jungle monsters and buff refillable potion.

Otherwise: Notice that 1 refillable potion is only worth something like 1.5 health pots. It's really quite bad relative to health pots. So if you're taking a refillable and can't manage your first clear, maybe take health pots instead (although I can do a full clear with NO LEASH on AMUMU with refillable, I think that would have been unheard of before...). Then again, I used to be able to do a full clear on Hecarim with no leash, now I can't even manage 3 camps...

I think the big reason is Mastery changes. The jungle alone would be substantially easier if not for the mastery changes. The champions that benefit from the new masteries find it pretty easy. Champions that don't synergize with the new masteries so well? They're struggling. Fortunately, Riot has also stated that they're going to introduce a few more masteries to fill out the trees (rather than only 2 options on each level). Hopefully some of the new ones will give these champions what they need to be successful. The loss of basic stats hurts a lot of champions with lower base stats and lack of sustain. Most of the masteries that would really help only have their effect against other champions (e.g. Grasp of the Undying would be an exceptional pick if it worked on monsters...).

SIaytonNov 20, 20159 votes

I was thinking the same thing. Effectively, none of the Keystones do anything for junglers as far as clear except the one that gives you HP per camp cleared. I was just thinking how good grasp would be for junglers if it worked on anything other than champions. Hopefully the masteries they add are geared more towards junglers.

ValyrianBladeNov 20, 20156 votes

Yes, it'd be cool if they changed the caveat on Grasp from "half on ranged" to "half on ranged or against monsters"

Even the half healing + extra damage would be really useful. The keystones are otherwise garbage for junglers. Tanks can make use of bond of stone but with the 4% being projected to be nerfed to 2% that makes it even weaker. The extra health mastery is a total joke - 300 health will mean absolutely nothing by mid game (which is the time it will take to finish) - so much for a keystone...

Ariel the CruelNov 20, 20151 votes

300 health will mean absolutely nothing by mid game

Vladimir I disagree.

YumaS2AstralNov 20, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gq4FNonG,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-20T14:01:54.694+0000)

I disagree.

Jungle Vlad OP

HayRossNov 20, 20154 votes

item 2031 = item 2003

EndlessSorcererNov 20, 201541 votes

Refillable Potion = 1.33 Health Potions on your initial clear.

Refillable Potion = 200HP 3 Health Potions = 450HP

HayRossNov 20, 201561 votes

Oh my god, I am a fucking idiot. I thought that health pots gave back 100 health as well.

I deserve to be downvoted to oblivion

JARmatesNov 20, 20157 votes

I gave you upvote on this comment but downvote on your previous comment :)

Phil FlyNov 20, 20152 votes

sall good in the hood

FLDE RentonNov 21, 201510 votes

I respect a man that acknowledges his mistakes. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Talk to ze handNov 21, 20155 votes

i respect a mistake that acknowledges his men

AkeydelNov 21, 20153 votes

i respect acknowledgment that mistakes his men.

ADepressedLeonaNov 21, 20152 votes

I respect man that mistake acknowledgments

Chaotic ReksNov 20, 20152 votes

another thing, lifesteal from the jungle items work against scuttle too

Kuroi86Nov 20, 20151 votes

Then again, I used to be able to do a full clear on Hecarim with no leash, now I can't even manage 3 camps...

Really? I honestly managed a full five just with item 1039 and 3 item 2003

ValyrianBladeNov 20, 20153 votes

What runes/masteries?

I've noticed that going Gromp > Blue > Wolves > red > raptors > krugs results in one of two occurrences:

Die on wolves (can't do 3 camps)
Barely survive wolves, get level 3 boost off of it, smite red for health, manage full clear.

So there's a very fine line between the two. Hecarim fell in to the former for me, but 1 rune/mastery change could affect that (or even just getting a leash). Also not sure if I tried with health pots or only with the refillable.

Kuroi86Nov 21, 20151 votes

0/18/12 Wanderer, Runic Affinity, Merciless, Dangerous Game, Intelligence, Stormraider's Surge Recovery, Explorer, Runic Armor, Insight AD reds, AR yellows, Scaling MR blues, two CDR quints and a MS quint.

If bot side, start Red with leash, then Wolves, then Blue, then Raptors, Krugs and finish with gromp. If top side, smite Gromp, then leash Blue, Wolves, Red, Raptors, Krugs and finish Gromp last.

Start Q W E. Max Q, then put a second point into W before maxing E and max W last while leveling ult whenever possible.

You can do a full clear, though after getting Red and Blue I typically look for a gank. Anyone below 2/3 health in top or mid should be a good target.

ProfDrDeathNov 20, 201527 votes

Raising awareness to this:

All the jungle camps had the regeneration sigil, the small buff that restored HP and mana on killing the large monster, removed. Which is what might contribute to the bad first clears.

Phoenix Kotori Nov 21, 20151 votes

Are you fucking serious? Removing the gold off the jungle items was bad enough, but nope this too...

Fuck the jungle I am done dealing with this, time be a Quinn main and queue for top or mid every game next ranked season.

GelsominoKillerNov 20, 20154 votes

You're right. I tested hecarim jungle and i was baffled to how he actually goes oom on 2nd camp. His clears are pretty bad too.

I strongly dislike the new mastery sistem. It has been moved from class oriented to champion oriented: so it dictates champion viability and creates a meta of "who can better abuse the mastery?".

Example: 8% shield mastery is stronger on janna compared to tresh. This gives janna more power. Janna is 100% going to take it

yay nibbersNov 20, 201512 votes

Not only is it harder on any champ without innate sustain but you only get more gold in the very early game, overall you get less from farming the jungle now that the tier 2 jungle items don't give bonus gold anymore. To make things worse, the jungle items are much more expensive now (425 total gold more in the case of Runeglaive just because they had to take the AP away from Sheen for lord knows what reason), not to mention Hunter's Potion eating up 400 of your gold. In total it costs 3075 gold to get Runeglaive and Hunter's Potion Right now, which also costs two item slots. You used to be able to build the Trailblazer Runeglaive for just 2250 gold to get your full jungle item which also gives decent sustain.

Why does it cost 825 gold more (775 gold for Warrior and Cinderhulk, 600 gold for Devourer) to do more or less the same thing I did last season? Gold gain increases don't make up for this gross increase in cost. It takes much longer to complete your jungle item and all we get int return is... Rift Herald? A warding item which doesn't actually upgrade smite? An expensive refillable potion that loses usefulness by midgame?

I swear Riot has it out for junglers. It's some crazy update just about every season now but this season but this season really takes the cake. It's not enough that laners have to ruin our fancy new jungle items as they came out in season 5 (Cinderhulk and Runeglaive) but now we're getting shafted for... what exactly? Why are we hit harder in terms of gold costs than everybody else?

EndlessSorcererNov 20, 20159 votes

I've not had any issues jungling.

I've done full or near full jungle clears on Diana, Rammus, Xin Zhao, Shyvana, and Sejuani quite easily.

If you are having issues or can't figure out how to survive your initial clears, try the following path:

Krugs (smite) -> Raptors -> Red Buff (Smite) -> Wolves -> Blue Buff -> Scuttle Crab -> Gromp

Also, don't bother taking the Refillable Potion unless you plan to immediately upgrade it to Hunter's Potion. Most champions I've played have no sustain issues after they've finished their unenchanted Jungle Item (Tracker's Knife, Skrimisher's Sabre, Stalker's Blade), so just start with 3 Health Potions. It gives you 250HP more on your initial clear.

SIaytonNov 20, 201512 votes

All of those champions have pretty healthy / fast clears tho. I don't think they are the best examples. Try Wukong jungle and let me know how it goes.

Death by GlamourNov 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

All of those champions have pretty healthy / fast clears tho. I don't think they are the best examples. Try Wukong jungle and let me know how it goes.

Clear small camps first then go back to your red at lvl 3. Get decoy lvl 2 and buy normal red pots.

EndlessSorcererNov 20, 20158 votes

I gave Wukong jungle a try in a custom game without a leash.

Items: Machete, 3 Health Potions Runes: 1 Armor Quint, 2 Attack Speed Quints, AD Marks, Scaling Health Seals, MR Glyphs Masteries: 18/6/6 (taking damage and damage reduction against monsters). Skill Order: EWQE Path: Krugs (smite), Raptors, Red Buff (Smite), Blue Buff, Scuttle Crab

I ended with around 250HP. I had mana issues nearing the end of Red Buff and when fighting Blue Buff (I think I used E to finish off a Raptors once when an auto would have done it).

I had 710 gold at 4:10 which was enough to upgrade my jungle item. I would have probably been healthy enough to do the wolf camp as well if I had received a leash..

Nowhere near as good a clear as the other junglers I mentioned (though using flat armor seals would have definitely helped), but definitely doable.

Also tried Kha'zix jungle with the same runes, masteries, and items. It was quite brutal. Skill Order: QWQE (only took Q at level 1 since I had no leash, would normally take W for the heal).

Krugs (smite) -> Raptors -> Red Buff (smite)

After Red Buff I backed to buy Hunter's Potion. I then proceeded to clear:

Gromp (smite) -> Blue Buff -> Wolves -> Raptors -> Krugs

After that, I had enough gold to purchase my jungle upgrade. Once again, I was running into mana issues at the end of Red Buff.

Honestly, doing something similar may be a good idea on Wukong to. If you had a leash or took Scuttle Crab before doing Red Buff, you would probably be able to survive it with the Refillable Potion.

SIaytonNov 20, 20156 votes

Thanks for taking the time to do that. I think the problem with these clear paths is that ganking early doesn't seem to be an option anymore. I personally don't like to gank unless I have 75%+ HP and it seems like you have to back after your first 3-5 camps, get items to help you clear more healthy, clear again, then gank. This means you're ganking later and the ganks are less effective because you don't have combat stats when before you would have had like a long sword or something.

ValyrianBladeNov 20, 20152 votes

I typically (even before this patch) would do my first full clear, base for an upgrade to my jungle item and either pots/wards/boots/an offensive item, then head towards the camp I want to do next (often wolves) while looking at the two adjacent lanes to see if I can get an easy gank.

So I'd recommend doing the same, look for that early gank before starting your second clear ( / finishing your first clear after basing).

In reality, you should always be looking for easy ganks though. The number of times a jungler has ganked top at level 2 or 3 with under 35% health when his ally was under 15% and the enemy top was under 25%, thereby getting a kill for his team rather than the enemy and completely changing the direction of the lane (a level 1 or 2 death pretty much ends it in top lane) is unbelievable.

About100midgetsNov 20, 20151 votes

i have a pretty easy time with Kha'zix in the jungle. I start talisman with three health potions and i'm usually able to do a full clear with a half decent leash. Start at Gromp, do blue, wolves, then straight to red. I'm also pretty healthy and able to gank top or mid. Skill order QWQE.

EndlessSorcererNov 20, 20151 votes

Is that with or without a leash?

About100midgetsNov 25, 20151 votes

if i want to gank i will most likely get a leash at krugs. But if want to counter jungle a bit more i will get like one or two aa's from my laner on the respective camp.

ProfDrDeathNov 20, 20157 votes

Raising awareness to this:

All the jungle camps had the regeneration sigil, the small buff that restored HP and mana on killing the large monster, removed. Which is what might contribute to the bad first clears.

Virgin RayNov 20, 20156 votes

Ranger's Trailblazer was supposed to help junglers with crappy clearing, and since it's removed I think s6 is eliminating those junglers.

Cloud PotatoNov 20, 20152 votes

OP is talking about first clears, before Machete upgrades are available.

Troy242621Nov 20, 20154 votes

Feels like it's far, far harder with some champions, mostly the same with others, and a couple have benefited in a huge way. Least that's been my humble observations.

GankLordNov 20, 20154 votes

I can't even Jungle Moakai anymore that's what hurts the most.

YuGiHoNov 20, 20154 votes

it doesn't matter if item 3124 is good right now Evelynn still dies on her first buff

Palmeiras SerieBNov 20, 20153 votes

The jungle has seriously never been harder

Nah, I think it was harder on last preseason

Warwick god tier >>> errything

PharohNov 20, 20153 votes

I completely agree with this, with junglers like Elise who has passive health regen the jungle is no harder than it was before, but with just about any jungler I play MonkeyKing Jax RekSai I can barely survive taking my 3rd camp after blowing both charges of item 2031 I have to back with barely enough to get item 1039 Not to mention now it takes much more than a full clear to get my actual jungle item. I honestly dont see what was wrong with the old jungle, sure it could've used a little tuning for some champs but overall it was fine. I just want my old item 1041 back, get rid of the stupid and item 2032 or at least buff the hell out of them.

Sincerely, A very pissed off jungle main

PharohNov 20, 20151 votes

NOT TO MENTION the insane amount of anger I feel when a god forsaken Shaco or Rengar comes and kills me immediately after or while I'm trying to take my first buff camp.

KETSU0Nov 20, 20152 votes

lol i was the rengar kekekekek

peachplumpearNov 20, 20153 votes

How are you doing badly on Rek'Sai? When I jungle Rek'Sai I do a full clear in 3:50 and end with almost full HP.

Start machete and 3 HP pots. Hunter's Potions are bad for Rek'Sai because she doesn't use mana and her burrow will restore HP anyways. Start Q level one and get W second (CC + Health Regen) then E at level 3. Gromp start and clear every camp left to right from there, smiting Gromp and then Red Buff.

RisenDarkKnightNov 20, 20151 votes

You'll be more heatlhy with krug smite then with gromp but yeah, Rek'Sai has amazing sustain/clear. Jax also clears well with krug smite + counterstrike. Wukong does get wrecked though.

TDubHNov 20, 20152 votes

Hmm Jax's success is based on runes setup, on a secondary i have a lot of trouble but on my PBE account where i have access to change my runes in pretty much any way i can clear Krugs -> Red -> gromp -> blue -> wolves before backing, easily, just has to do with timing krugs and counterstrike

Battlecast SonaNov 20, 20152 votes

Let's forget that with your jungle item completed if you choose to stay in the jungle and farm you can now outlevel everyone on the map thanks to jungle exp changes.

Refillable potion by itself is bad, but if you make a hunter's potion basically anyone in the cast can jungle.

Instead of trying to jungle like you did last season, maybe take a look at what you may have to change. Sure, it may be a little harder to start out, but junglers have a lot more EXP available to them in the jungle now. Proper farming and gank timings can give you significantly more gold and EXP than you gained before, rewarding risky play, and thanks to those selfsame EXP changes a lot of devourer junglers will come out of the jungle higher level or at the same level as their solo laners, even without ganks.

YCitizenSnipsYNov 20, 20151 votes

IDK I don't play jungle but it seems like more people complained about preseason 5 jungle.

SIaytonNov 20, 20153 votes

That was mainly because of the transition from spirit stone. It was a pretty drastic change to S5. S6 is basically S5 hard mode.

Cloud PotatoNov 20, 20151 votes

I've been able to Jungle with every champion in my list, even freaking Azir. With varied success, of course. Here's my advice, considering that my Jungle path is Krugs > Red > Blue unless I'm unable to clear it that way with a champion:

1: Avoid item 1039 like the plague unless you cannot clear without running out of mana. The health leech is nice but the extra damage from item 1041 's on hit will generally be superior. It may also be better to do Gromp > Blue > Red than take , but I didn't bother to check (Heavy Hands is just too good).

2: Masteries should be 18/6/6 with Fervor of Battle as your keystone. The extra damage on hit will make your clears a lot faster. Take the reduced monster damage from Resolve and cookies from Cunning. Depending on how well your champion can do in their first clear, you can change your Masteries, but you should do this one as a starting point.

3: If you're playing a Ranged Jungler, kite as much as you can. Really makes your clears a lot better. Kindred, Teemo, Vayne, and for some reason Varus can end up at Blue on full HP, sometimes with cookies remaining. If you're Melee with a ranged ability, doing a bit of kiting can sometimes save you a hit or two, but it's not really as helpful.

Jungle Lux GodNov 20, 20158 votes

Just letting you know, Fervor of Battle does not work on monsters. You will stack the buff, but the extra damage only applies on champions.

Also, there are quite a few champions that find Hunter's Talisman a lot better. Fiddlesticks and Azir all would benefit a lot more from Talisman than Machete for clearing speeds because Fiddlesticks doesn't auto attack much to get value out of Machete and Azir can't proc on-hit effects while soldiers are out, rendering Machete useless compared to Talisman.

SwordGruntNov 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cloud Potato,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gq4FNonG,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-11-20T11:22:20.656+0000)

I've been able to Jungle with every champion in my list, even freaking Azir. With varied success, of course. Here's my advice, considering that my Jungle path is Krugs > Red > Blue unless I'm unable to clear it that way with a champion:

1: Avoid like the plague unless you cannot clear without running out of mana. The health leech is nice but the extra damage from 's on hit will generally be superior. It may also be better to do Gromp > Blue > Red than take , but I didn't bother to check (Heavy Hands is just too good).

2: Masteries should be 18/6/6 with Fervor of Battle as your keystone. The extra damage on hit will make your clears a lot faster. Take the reduced monster damage from Resolve and cookies from Cunning. Depending on how well your champion can do in their first clear, you can change your Masteries, but you should do this one as a starting point.

3: If you're playing a Ranged Jungler, kite as much as you can. Really makes your clears a lot better. Kindred, Teemo, Vayne, and for some reason Varus can end up at Blue on full HP, sometimes with cookies remaining. If you're Melee with a ranged ability, doing a bit of kiting can sometimes save you a hit or two, but it's not really as helpful.

Fervor of Battle is only supposed to work against champions.