This champ already has shroud, E, ult, and gunblade slow to bail her ass out of any ganks or establish her engagements. Why does she get a fairly low CD harassment tool that serves as chase and peel and gives her movement speed on top given all her other tools?
By this point I'd rather they move her slow to her E charge so she can still chase champs down but not have a conal spammable slow to make her even more forgiving than she already is.
iiGazeii3 votesShe gets movement speed and slows because in most cases, she needs to back away to proc her passive. If she didn't slow her enemies, she wouldn't be able to hit them at the very edge of her Q range and come back in for an auto unless they buffed the crap out of the passive movement speed. And nobody wants that.
Her gameplay is centered around playing at medium range, weaving in and out from her targets to keep them at her preferred range. If landing the tip of her Q didn't matter, she'd just run at you spamming cooldowns. The speed manipulation is key to her play pattern.
The slow is the least of Akali's problems.
Crescent Dusk1 votesShe gets movement speed and slows because in most cases, she needs to back away to proc her passive. If she didn't slow her enemies, she wouldn't be able to hit them at the very edge of her Q range and come back in for an auto unless they buffed the crap out of the passive movement speed. And nobody wants that.
Her gameplay is centered around playing at medium range, weaving in and out from her targets to keep them at her preferred range. If landing the tip of her Q didn't matter, she'd just run at you spamming cooldowns. The speed manipulation is key to her play pattern.
The slow is the least of Akali's problems.
Most of her targets are ranged players who make proccing her passive simple, and she already gets the bonus movement speed once her passive is procced.
You also didn't read when i mentioned moving her slow to her E charge. If she lands the E and charges in, she gets to manipulate range with a slow, but the slow's usage is restricted to offensive usage so she can't just back to back Q and keep the jungler and her laner perma slowed in between her Q, her gunblade proc, and then the extra kiting blankets of the e dash and her ult dash on top.
It makes a half competent Akali player impossible to be pressured in lane because she has such an abundance of self peel. Assassins are intended to be weak to CC champs, and she's the one exception out of all of them.
iiGazeii2 votes[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ggiX0dxr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-17T21:10:24.143+0000)
Most of her targets are ranged players who make proccing her passive simple, and she already gets the bonus movement speed once her passive is procced.
You also didn't read when i mentioned moving her slow to her E charge. If she lands the E and charges in, she gets to manipulate range with a slow, but the slow's usage is restricted to offensive usage so she can't just back to back Q and keep the jungler and her laner perma slowed in between her Q, her gunblade proc, and then the extra kiting blankets of the e dash and her ult dash on top.
It makes a half competent Akali player impossible to be pressured in lane because she has such an abundance of self peel. Assassins are intended to be weak to CC champs, and she's the one exception out of all of them.
I did read your idea of adding the slow to her E. I didn't comment on it because it's a bad idea.
Kiting people around and being able to both engage and escape is Akali's thing. She's supposed to be slippery and difficult to catch. The trade-off is that her time to kill is lower than other assassins. She can't insta-kill you unless she's ahead. She needs to take extended trades with multiple rotations to actually get the kill.
She's just as vulnerable to being CC'd as any other assassin. If you get right in her face, she can't slow you. Her shroud is on a long cooldown. She simply doesn't have enough energy to spam Qs all the way back to her tower.
Your time to get ahead of Akali is before she builds Gunblade. If you aren't on top when she finishes it, you have lost lane. Start grouping with your team and stop trying to call your jungler in for ganks. All you'll do is feed her double kills.
Crescent Dusk1 votesI did read your idea of adding the slow to her E. I didn't comment on it because it's a bad idea.
Kiting people around and being able to both engage and escape is Akali's thing. She's supposed to be slippery and difficult to catch. The trade-off is that her time to kill is lower than other assassins. She can't insta-kill you unless she's ahead. She needs to take extended trades with multiple rotations to actually get the kill.
She's just as vulnerable to being CC'd as any other assassin. If you get right in her face, she can't slow you. Her shroud is on a long cooldown. She simply doesn't have enough energy to spam Qs all the way back to her tower.
Your time to get ahead of Akali is before she builds Gunblade. If you aren't on top when she finishes it, you have lost lane. Start grouping with your team and stop trying to call your jungler in for ganks. All you'll do is feed her double kills.
'This is her thing" is a bad argument to begin with and holds little weight. So is the brilliant idea that you should let Akali take towers unmolested and hope you can zerg down another lane.
Moreover, her time to kill is not slower than other assassins at all. With her ult up, which every assassin relies on anyways, she can one rotation any champ that's not a bruiser. With gunblade she doesn't even need to land her E.
Her combo is not any more delayed than Katarina's dagger combo, and it does more damage than anything Ekko does.
More importantly, her overbearing ability to dictate engagement makes her as much of a scourge in top lane as aatrox mid was, where the toolkit completely abuses champions and unlike ranged champs, she is way more resistant to ganks and is one of the best scaling assassins in the game next to Zed.
Prestige AkaIi1 votes'This is her thing" is a bad argument to begin with and holds little weight.
I agree.
her time to kill is not slower than other assassins at all.
It most certainly is. Unless she's ahead already it takes her about 3-6 seconds to 100-0 someone. The reason it takes her so long is because of how much she relies on her passive AAs to get damage on an enemy champion, and because of the way her passive works, she has to literally move away from the enemy champion(or wherever they were when she procced the passive) to get the bonus damage, which takes up a lot of time.
With her ult up, which every assassin relies on anyways, she can one rotation any champ that's not a bruiser.
It depends on a lot. If she already has an established lead in lane than yes, otherwise she'll usually need two rotations from of her Q and Passive. Though there are always exceptions.
Her combo is not any more delayed than Katarina's dagger combo, and it does more damage than anything Ekko does.
You compare Akali to the AP Assassin with the most delay on their abilities, and then compare both Akali and Kat to arguably one of the weakest AP assassins atm. You're really grasping for straws with this one.
More importantly, her overbearing ability to dictate engagement makes her as much of a scourge in top lane as aatrox mid was, where the toolkit completely abuses champions and unlike ranged champs, she is way more resistant to ganks
I agree with this one as well. While she's not as bad as she once was she's still pretty frustrating to go against as a melee toplaner, but that's also a matchup thing. It's not like she counters every champion that goes top, and even if you are in an unfavorable matchup there are still things you can do to win the game. Annoying but not unwinnable.
and is one of the best scaling assassins in the game next to Zed.
I wouldn't say she scales well, at least in the way you're putting it. She does better late than most assassins due to her survivability in teamfights which is largely due to her shroud.
Crescent Dusk1 votes[{quoted}](name=Prestige AkaIi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ggiX0dxr,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-19T11:24:25.648+0000)
I agree.
It most certainly is. Unless she's ahead already it takes her about 3-6 seconds to 100-0 someone. The reason it takes her so long is because of how much she relies on her passive AAs to get damage on an enemy champion, and because of the way her passive works, she has to literally move away from the enemy champion(or wherever they were when she procced the passive) to get the bonus damage, which takes up a lot of time.
It depends on a lot. If she already has an established lead in lane than yes, otherwise she'll usually need two rotations from of her Q and Passive. Though there are always exceptions.
You compare Akali to the AP Assassin with the most delay on their abilities, and then compare both Akali and Kat to arguably one of the weakest AP assassins atm. You're really grasping for straws with this one.
I agree with this one as well. While she's not as bad as she once was she's still pretty frustrating to go against as a melee toplaner, but that's also a matchup thing. It's not like she counters every champion that goes top, and even if you are in an unfavorable matchup there are still things you can do to win the game. Annoying but not unwinnable.
I wouldn't say she scales well, at least in the way you're putting it. She does better late than most assassins due to her survivability in teamfights which is largely due to her shroud.
I compared her to Katarina because the poster said no other assassin has the delay she does. This is demonstrably false, and I picked Katarina due to her, unlike Ekko, being in a strong win rate. I even made the point of not including Talon, who without ult also has a similar delay to Akali and even less sustained damage despite comparable one rotation damage post lv6 (most people are not dumb enough to fall for the Talon lv2 cheese just as any top laner should know to back off Fiora, Kled or Darius by lv2-3).
3-6 seconds is exactly what it takes most other assassins who aren't fed. Play Zed when he's not fed, he has to land 2 Q's, set the shadow before hand, land the e, swap in and proc his passive auto. Hell, try an unfed Fizz as well. The fact is, most mages aren't dying in a single rotation to assassins right now (partly thanks to most of them taking barrier and bone plating) and this is why mid lane is such a shit show in LCS with mostly control mages and now even fucking tristana featuring in the LCS. Akali is not special in this regard, rather she's privileged because unlike Katarina, Talon, Fizz, Ekko she's seen actual play in the LCS alongside Zed recently because those are the single two assassins with strong laning phases and teamfight capability due to their wealth of self-peel tools.
Annoying but not unwinnable is an understatement. You are in complete loss of control of the lane since you can't even manipulate the wave around setting ganks on her because her toolkit makes her so ridiculously good at foiling ganks, so at best you're looking at falling behind in CS slowly and becoming irrelevant while the Akali hits her gunblade power spike and starts roaming. This is the complete reverse of most ranged champ cheesers, because Vayne, Teemo, and even the "busted" Karma are far more easily ganked than Akali is. In general ranged champs are oppressive in top lane but very easily prone to ganks and pushing the lane; Akali does not experience this downside while having the updsides of little retaliation to her harassment unless you pick something like a Riven or Renekton.
She most definitely scales extremely well by assassin standards. Zed, Akali, and Fizz scale extremely well while others like Talon and Katarina have hard fall-offs.
5050BS2 votesOh you mean she would need skill?
Snowbrand2 votesWhy put her slow on E? If she hits it, she is gonna get close to that champ anyway. I think her slow on W is fine, she already lost her heal on it. And you can dodge it just like you dodge a darius q or aatroxx q. Zed have a slow on his E2, why can't akali have it if Zed can?
Crescent Dusk1 votesWhy put her slow on E? If she hits it, she is gonna get close to that champ anyway. I think her slow on W is fine, she already lost her heal on it. And you can dodge it just like you dodge a darius q or aatroxx q. Zed have a slow on his E2, why can't akali have it if Zed can?
Because her E is her "I'm going in and you're not getting away" tool.
Darius and Aatrox q's have wind-up. Akali's Q is instant.
Zed's slow is on a 22 sec base cd.
Snowbrand2 votes[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ggiX0dxr,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-19T17:23:17.564+0000)
Because her E is her "I'm going in and you're not getting away" tool.
Darius and Aatrox q's have wind-up. Akali's Q is instant.
Zed's slow is on a 22 sec base cd.
But if it is her "your not getting away tool", then the slow doesn't matter anyway. It's redundant.
Crescent Dusk1 votesBut if it is her "your not getting away tool", then the slow doesn't matter anyway. It's redundant.
Not remotely, because a dash doesn't guarantee sticking power, but a dash with a slow in it does. it's a lot easier to deal with an ulting ahri if your e snares her, for, say, 4-5 seconds. Similar for any mage or ADC.
If you think a dash does its job just on its own, imagine Diana with only r and no E; she would have no sticking power whatsoever, and this is why Talon is such a weak laner as well, because he dashes in, gets CC'd, and landing return rake is so completely unreliable since the recall is so slow it gets juked out that Talon gets kited to death by most meta mid laners and thus is forced to rush Tiamat, push waves and roam since he can't 1v1 his laners.
Snowbrand1 votes[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ggiX0dxr,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-20T22:43:04.096+0000)
Not remotely, because a dash doesn't guarantee sticking power, but a dash with a slow in it does. it's a lot easier to deal with an ulting ahri if your e snares her, for, say, 4-5 seconds. Similar for any mage or ADC.
If you think a dash does its job just on its own, imagine Diana with only r and no E; she would have no sticking power whatsoever, and this is why Talon is such a weak laner as well, because he dashes in, gets CC'd, and landing return rake is so completely unreliable since the recall is so slow it gets juked out that Talon gets kited to death by most meta mid laners and thus is forced to rush Tiamat, push waves and roam since he can't 1v1 his laners.
Yea, then it should be on E2 and not E1 at least
Crescent Dusk1 votesYea, then it should be on E2 and not E1 at least
......Which is exactly what I said in the OP.
The thigh guy1 votesIf you need to say “oh and” more than once when describing an ability to someone that isn’t an ultimate, you might have an overloaded ability.