Remove Keystones? Nah, how about nothing but Keystones

Rebonack·Dec 18, 2016·96 votes·4,010 views

Each category (Resolve, Cunning, Ferocity) gets, say ten to twelve options in it. Of these 30-36 choices, you get to pick three.

Three and ONLY three. Any three you want. Mix and match to create useful interactions that are best suited for your champ of choice. Power level would probably need to be a bit lower than current Keystone strength, but that's fine.

Why is this better than our present situation?

Well, for one there really isn't any choice involved. Typically there is going to be one, maybe two Keystone options that are attractive on your champion. Want that flat MR pen in Cunning but Deathfire is nicer for your pick? Tough shit. By doing away with the whole 'tree' concept completely, you pick the options that are best suited for what you plan on playing. And since there are so many options available, chances are there are going to be several nuanced combinations that would have pros and cons based on both your champ and the enemy team.

Real choices. That's what I want to see. Not 'always pick this one thing because this one thing is the best thing'.

96 Comments

JbelsDec 18, 201627 votes

Unfortunately, as much as I dislike the current mastery system, the smaller masteries are pretty much woven into the fabric of the game at this point. People may not realize it, but if all of those smaller masteries disappeared over night, they would notice in the morning, and they would not be happy

RebonackDec 18, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gd4v3WGm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-18T16:20:59.806+0000)

Unfortunately, as much as I dislike the current mastery system, the smaller masteries are pretty much woven into the fabric of the game at this point. People may not realize it, but if all of those smaller masteries disappeared over night, they would notice in the morning, and they would not be happy

Things like healing 20 HP off lasts hits every thirty seconds? Certainly. Ideally, there would be several in-combat (and out of combat) sustain Masteries to choose from. No doubt several of the 'little masteries' would probably see some flavor of incorporation into this system. They would just be a conscious choice rather than 'well, I need to take one of these things if I want Warlord's'

Automated RivenDec 18, 20162 votes

I totally understand the I need to take one of these things if I want X for heaven sakes I wish to god I could quit running biscuits on riven ... :(

Asayake 5150glowDec 19, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gd4v3WGm,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-18T22:52:54.603+0000)

I totally understand the I need to take one of these things if I want X for heaven sakes I wish to god I could quit running biscuits on riven ... :(

But longsword 3 biscuits!

IcyPepperDec 19, 20162 votes

Biscuits are important on Riven. I mean, you're always OOM :<

RisenDarkKnightDec 19, 20162 votes

Can't you just take assassin? 2% more damage in 1 v 1s seems useful..

Automated RivenDec 20, 20161 votes

not really. its like 8 more damage per AA. if you have 400 ad.

RisenDarkKnightDec 20, 20161 votes

It also buffs your Q, W and R. Seems better in matchups where you don't need early sustain too much.

Automated RivenDec 20, 20161 votes

yeah it doe. but the buff is so paltry that It is just a better all around to take buscuits. Example If you and I trade, you have assassin And I have buiscuts and during the trade you win it by 10 damage because of the assassin mastery. which is saying alot considering most matchups right now riven wants super short trades cause they are counters, or at least a tough lane anyhow and I pop my biscuit then that 10 damage bonus fyi in order to do 10 bonus damage to me you have to do 1000 damage in general you got just went negative because I gained 15 health instantly from popping the biscuit. in fact in order for you to out damage the healing that the biscuit heals me for you have to flat out kill me. and thats just one biscuit. This doesnt even count the refilible potions that I buy after my 3 biscuits and so on. The net gain is so much larger for the biscuits that its flat out worthless to take assassin unless it grants you a level 1 /2/3 kill (which if it does the odds of you not being able to aa one more time is really really slim.

Tldr the bonus health a biscuit gives you is useful 99% more of the time then the 2% extra damage.

Spaceman5pffDec 19, 20161 votes

Why Don't you run Assassin instead of Secret Stash?

You will benefit from it in lane since riven is a solo laner.

Unless you have a good reason for taking biscuits over 2% damage, but it sounds like you really don't like them.

Automated RivenDec 20, 20161 votes

the bonus health is more important then the best case senario 2 bonus damage per aa you get in lane. A realistic combo in lane with riven at level six with assassin perfectly weaving every auto attack is around 20 damage. full combo thats with zero armor maybe 25 damage if you are already super fed and backed and bought a full item cause people fed the hell out of you. ( I should point out that its like 38 if you aa in between every single ability and use every passive charge.) and the stats just get worse being as how you are required to be alone in order to make use of the mastery and you want to be roaming as riven. You easilly gain more health back and its far more useful to get the bonus healing. by this I mean the benifit is far more likely to matter there is maybe 1 in 100 games where that 20 damage would have changed a all in into a kill, where as that bonus health that you get impacts 1 in 20 assuming that they both help that much.

devdev463Dec 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gd4v3WGm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-18T16:20:59.806+0000)

Unfortunately, as much as I dislike the current mastery system, the smaller masteries are pretty much woven into the fabric of the game at this point. People may not realize it, but if all of those smaller masteries disappeared over night, they would notice in the morning, and they would not be happy

if their champions felt too weak without stat buff masteries they could just buff the stats instead lol. Not sure what you mean by "woven into the game" because it is a very easy fix if they decide to remove them. Time consuming I will admit, but easy nonetheless.

JbelsDec 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

if their champions felt too weak without stat buff masteries they could just buff the stats instead lol. Not sure what you mean by "woven into the game" because it is a very easy fix if they decide to remove them. Time consuming I will admit, but easy nonetheless.

If it was easy, they would have done it a long time ago. Time consumption is the exact issue. It would take way too long to figure out the stat boosts that each champ needs for the early / late game, and not only that, but it would make the game that much harder to balance

devdev463Dec 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gd4v3WGm,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-12-19T18:59:47.302+0000)

If it was easy, they would have done it a long time ago. Time consumption is the exact issue. It would take way too long to figure out the stat boosts that each champ needs for the early / late game, and not only that, but it would make the game that much harder to balance

They havent done it yet because they feel that masteries are worth keeping in the game.

JbelsDec 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They havent done it yet because they feel that masteries are worth keeping in the game.

They're worth keeping because the entire game's balance would be thrown off without them

devdev463Dec 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gd4v3WGm,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-19T20:06:12.592+0000)

They're worth keeping because the entire game's balance would be thrown off without them

They're worth keeping because they add a new dynamic to league that riot is hoping to build upon more, not destroy completely.

l Helios lDec 19, 201614 votes

God damn you and your walrus option.

RebonackDec 19, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Helios l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gd4v3WGm,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-12-19T00:53:42.755+0000)

God damn you and your walrus option.

I've got a theme I've gotta stick to.

Pyro stole it once last year before the preseason item changes went live in one of his item topics.

I'll never forgive him.

l Helios lDec 19, 20162 votes

Must...resist...walrus...

Not...resisting...well...

DrugsForRobotsDec 19, 20168 votes

One thing that's always left me a bit confused...

They're called 'Masteries' but they don't actually promote mastery of the game, AFAIK. All of our options are raw stats with the occasional conditional effect or something. (Keystones obviously being powerful enough to be an outright item effect.)

There is this idea in game design that if you're designing a game you want rules and mechanics that encourage the kind of gameplay you (the designer) would like to see / want the player engaged in.

So what kind of gameplay does Riot want to encourage? Well, I would think peeling for your allies, focusing the same target, contesting and taking objectives, using the minion waves effectively, scoring kills and assists, warding, etc, etc.

For example, we don't actually have a mastery that rewards last-hitting. We have the 'Savagery' mastery, but that facilitates last-hitting, but it doesn't actually reward, or put the emphasis on, scoring the last hit. Likewise, we don't actually have a mastery that rewards us for warding or finding wards - both behaviors that you would think Riot wants to encourage in its players, since both actually indicate mastery of the game and are closely related to skill and rank.

Very strange.

Shaco

SnowplosionDec 18, 20166 votes

Gotta love how walrus has the most votes.

RebonackDec 18, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Gotta love how walrus has the most votes.

Only rarely that isn't the case.

SnowplosionDec 19, 20163 votes

Walrus is always the solution!

SkiasDec 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Gotta love how walrus has the most votes.

every time someone makes a poll, they manage to ruin it.

Teridax68Dec 18, 20165 votes

While I'd personally rather see the mastery system get removed entirely, this model looks worth trying out. In fact, you could even take that idea to its extreme and have players only pick a single keystone out of the full selection, which would not only be allowed to be even more powerful, but would really force players to make hard choices when selecting their mastery, and could potentially allow more room for variation. An advantage to a single-choice mastery system is that it would also allow players to do away with mastery pages entirely, which are tedious to update as balance and design changes get made, and instead immediately choose their mastery from a single page.

In either case, a drastic reduction in selected masteries could potentially even allow them to be "purchased" in the shop, much like trinkets: a current issue with the mastery system is how it disrupts lobbies, both by extending their duration (everyone needs time to adjust their mastery pages and pick a rune setup), and by reducing communication (everyone's too busy tuning their own stuff). Since masteries are essentially item passives without the base stats (most of the time), they could easily be made purchaseable at the start of a match, and non-refundable thereafter, which would likely diminish the number of people accidentally picking the wrong mastery page in the lobby. Currently, the system is far too complex to add in item form, but with one or three standalone choices, having masteries as "items" that would take up their own keystone slot could make customization a lot simpler and less stressful.

Speaking of which, the possibility of having masteries as items is one of the reasons why I think we should get rid of masteries: if the effect's good enough to have on an item, why not make it a proper item instead?

woobeeDec 19, 20162 votes

tfw memes are too strong for reasonable conversation

IA9hRfpP5qDec 19, 20162 votes

http://travelbybrewery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/keystone-light.jpg signed a contract with Riot.

ZeranaDec 19, 20162 votes

Let's talk about the keystones we want then.

Vision: the ward limit is doubled and wards now last 1 extra minute. As long as there are at least 3 wards on the map your ward vision is 30% greater and wards auto ping the enemy.

The wall: As long as a team mate is behind you, you both get 7% extra resistances

Hextech tinkerer: Item active cooldowns for the last active you used is reduced by 50% (this cannot occur for more than one item and is disabled until the item finishes its cd)

Healer: for every 3 missing hp you heal for 1 extra more if a nearby ally dies you heal for 20% more for 5 seconds.

Shielder: Your shields give 10% extra stats on whichever stat is the highest on the champion (this scales with shield base stats and can convert the bonuses if the shield is strong enough) This excludes ms unless the shield gives bonus ms higher than 80%.

Magic sigil: If you hit a champion with 2 consecutive spells in under 5 seconds, they lose 10 mr. This can stack up to 3 times

Sling: Auto attacks against the same champion for 3 autos gain momentum and increase attack speed by 20% stacking up to 3 times.

Ambush: standing still for 3 seconds in a bush gives you bonus ap or ad for 5 seconds (whichever stat is highest) of about 10%

Snake eater: Whenever you kill a jungle monster you gain bonus magic damage against monsters permanently by 1.

Stealth bomber: When invisible/camouflaged you gain for 5 seconds after leaving stealth a mr/ar reduction aura that reduces those stats by 10. After using you first ability or auto attack out of stealth it is disabled.

I'm sure there are more people want, lets talk.

ZeranaDec 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Let's talk about the keystones we want then.

Vision: the ward limit is doubled and wards now last 1 extra minute. As long as there are at least 3 wards on the map your ward vision is 30% greater and wards auto ping the enemy.

The wall: As long as a team mate is behind you, you both get 7% extra resistances

Hextech tinkerer: Item active cooldowns for the last active you used is reduced by 50% (this cannot occur for more than one item and is disabled until the item finishes its cd)

Healer: for every 3 missing hp you heal for 1 extra more if a nearby ally dies you heal for 20% more for 5 seconds.

Shielder: Your shields give 10% extra stats on whichever stat is the highest on the champion (this scales with shield base stats and can convert the bonuses if the shield is strong enough) This excludes ms unless the shield gives bonus ms higher than 80%.

Magic sigil: If you hit a champion with 2 consecutive spells in under 5 seconds, they lose 10 mr. This can stack up to 3 times

Sling: Auto attacks against the same champion for 3 autos gain momentum and increase attack speed by 20% stacking up to 3 times.

Ambush: standing still for 3 seconds in a bush gives you bonus ap or ad for 5 seconds (whichever stat is highest) of about 10%

Snake eater: Whenever you kill a jungle monster you gain bonus magic damage against monsters permanently by 1.

Stealth bomber: When invisible/camouflaged you gain for 5 seconds after leaving stealth a mr/ar reduction aura that reduces those stats by 10. After using you first ability or auto attack out of stealth it is disabled.

I'm sure there are more people want, lets talk.

For reasons unbeknownst to me, I was banned for seven days from the boards. For Snake eater? Now the ban appears to be gone. Was this a glitch? I hope Board monitors don't just do blanket bans and actually read the comments and consider vocabulary evolution.

MagimodellerDec 18, 20161 votes

It's a cool idea. However, wouldn't they need to beefed up if you only get 3? That or change the rune system to complement the lack of the masteries in between, which would be pretty good too.

RebonackDec 18, 201614 votes

{quoted}

It's a cool idea. However, wouldn't they need to beefed up if you only get 3? That or change the rune system to complement the lack of the masteries in between, which would be pretty good too.

Riot is planning on doing a Rune pass pretty soon. I figure that if something like this were done with Masteries, then Runes could pick up the slack on the raw stat side of things. Basically, Runes would be for stats. NONE of the Masteries should be giving stats. They should be giving unique, interactive passive effects.

MisterShamelessDec 18, 201610 votes

This is a solid way to establish Masteries with Runes filling in the gaps and vise versa instead of them doing very similar things.

HazyCloud7Dec 18, 20161 votes

A lot of mages need the points in savagery to last hit under tower with their really low base AD. They would all have to take it by default, and as a result they'd have only 2 choices.

invisiblecat1Dec 19, 20161 votes

If there are going to be 3 then they should have added power to a current one, because someone with CotC, Warlords, and thunderlords just gives too much damage, sustain, AND survivability

RebonackDec 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If there are going to be 3 then they should have added power to a current one, because someone with CotC, Warlords, and thunderlords just gives too much damage, sustain, AND survivability

The three Masteries you pick would (probably) be weaker than the current Keystones. The current Keystones would ostensibly make it into the new system, but they would be nerfed accordingly (except maybe Grasp. Poor Grasp). Sure you could grab several offensive options (people already do, they're just boring offensive options) but then that would mean you're missing out on, say, a Mastery that reduces recall time to 2 seconds and gives you a speed boost that stacks with Homeguard.

Because there would be so many options, you balance them by forcing people to pay the opportunity cost of not getting the other ones. The end result is that a full Mastery page should give about as much power as they do on Live. It's just more focused power.

DrahcirDec 19, 20161 votes

how does walrus have more votes than yes or no?

QuinnovaDec 19, 201611 votes

because walrus.

DrahcirDec 19, 20161 votes

... fair enough.

MrBuffingtonDec 19, 20162 votes

Coo Coo Cachoo

BensbackDec 19, 20161 votes

I just want the old masteries back and unbreak champions. I still see waaaaaaay too much thunderlords to my preference.

Just give us a system that is balanced and meaningful not a braindead system. I like how someone proposed a system about rewarding us for playing well like rewarding last hits (doesn't serrated dirk reward extra damage for every last hit?), warding etc.

TeCoolMageDec 19, 20162 votes

old masteries were just stat sticks

new masteries have way too little choices

get the best of both with the suggested system here

ElikainDec 19, 20161 votes

I don't think this would fix anything. Simply increasing the number of Keystones would bring champions many options to choose from but you would still not avoid champions having the best keystone they synergize with and finally being reduced to one keystone they can play optimally with, disregarding the rest.

VexingRavenDec 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't think this would fix anything. Simply increasing the number of Keystones would bring champions many options to choose from but you would still not avoid champions having the best keystone they synergize with and finally being reduced to one keystone they can play optimally with, disregarding the rest.

This isn't a problem if every champion has a keystone they synergize well with. The problem right now is that some champions synergize extremely well with certain keystones (CoTC, Thunderlords, and Fervor) whereas some champions are forced to make due with rather underwhelming keystone choices. I agree with OP that having a bunch of equally powerful masteries taken in any order would be better than the current system by far.

ElikainDec 19, 20161 votes

Who are the champions that are forced to make due with suboptimal Keystones?

I played Morgana support with Thunderlord's, Windspeaker's and even Deathfire Touch when i needed to opt into those Keystones. Not to say that since Morgana has multiple choices that all champions have them the same but i don't expect that every Keystone can fit her, considering the Mastery path you need to opt in to reach the said Keystones.

VexingRavenDec 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Who are the champions that are forced to make due with suboptimal Keystones?

I played Morgana support with Thunderlord's, Windspeaker's and even Deathfire Touch when i needed to opt into those Keystones. Not to say that since Morgana has multiple choices that all champions have them the same but i don't expect that every Keystone can fit her, considering the Mastery path you need to opt in to reach the said Keystones.

For starters, any champions that like to be tanky but don't have a hard CC or would synergize better with health (like the old Strength of Ages).

ElikainDec 20, 20161 votes

I wouldn't constitute champions "that would like to be tanky" as tanks, without proper tools to fit the class. SotA was already broken in that regard because you already saw Nidalee taking it. A lot of other squishy champions that went jungle opted into Strength for this very reason - it eases the clears, it makes them harder to kill during invades or ganks while still having the option to not buy a single HP item and have 300 HP more than usual. It was also bringing a lot of jungle sustain when capped.

Tanks already have a mastery and that's either Colossus (CC tanks) or Grasp (fighter tanks). These two provide great stats for tanks, they really don't need a keystone that allows them to get tankier without items.

VexingRavenDec 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't constitute champions "that would like to be tanky" as tanks, without proper tools to fit the class. SotA was already broken in that regard because you already saw Nidalee taking it. A lot of other squishy champions that went jungle opted into Strength for this very reason - it eases the clears, it makes them harder to kill during invades or ganks while still having the option to not buy a single HP item and have 300 HP more than usual. It was also bringing a lot of jungle sustain when capped.

Tanks already have a mastery and that's either Colossus (CC tanks) or Grasp (fighter tanks). These two provide great stats for tanks, they really don't need a keystone that allows them to get tankier without items.

Except Grasp is completely useless in the jungle, and getting tankier without items is exactly what COTC does.

ElikainDec 20, 20161 votes

No, health stacking is permanent while getting a shield off CC prevents damage in that situation, it falls off after a few seconds and has a CD. I don't like the idea of getting tankier off jungle minions as much as i would be opposed to the same idea of carry type junglers getting permanent AP or AD from a keystone that does the same.

Cho'Gath ult is more fair as he gets permanent HP stacks for successful Feast kills but if you manage to kill him, he loses half. Mejai's is fair because you stack it off champion kills but you lose half when you die and have to work for them again. You need to set back a player that has this benefit or they just keep getting harder and harder to kill, almost to the point of being a top priority target but being impossible to deal with, even with multiple people.

I can understand that there's a lack of a jungling Keystone but consider the following

jungle is open for AP, AD and tank champions. All of these types champions can make use of the said keystones in some way, that help only when you engage with other champions. You shouldn't have a mastery that supports your afk farming playstyle. It's the exact reason why Devourer was removed. Introducing a scaling keystone on scaling champions is just asking for trouble.

For example, Kindred was one of the examples who benefited the most from a Sated Devourer (Shyv and Yi) and needed to be nerfed specifically in mind that their balance should always revolve around this item. And that meant they were completely weak without it. Vlad and Akali's performance was also held back by an item - WotA.

Glory ln DeathDec 19, 20162 votes

Just make each keystone "spike" during certain phases of the game. Some keystones are awesome early game, but fall off in mid and late game, some are great mid game but meh early and late, etc.

That way it will change completely depending on the player and the game. If they have a bad lane match-up, grab one or two early game masteries to get through it. If they like being late game monsters, grab three late game masteries. If they want to be consistent throughout the game, get one of each. And, they have to take into account what masteries the enemy might take, and when their spikes might be.

ElikainDec 20, 20161 votes

I don't think that would work either. The last thing you need is keystones that are taking their sweet time scaling or falling off hard during a game because it offered more early power. You already know in what position are flat runes vs scaling runes. All are in favor of flat stats, scaling runes definitely offer more but no one is willing to take that risk and lose a lane because they can't deal with early poke.

Power creep would be one of the major problems for scaling keystones. If two power spikes coincide (champion's and keystone's), a champion would be rather overwhelming to deal with, even without the major items.