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Why are people so mad they must learn how to use Veigars stun properly?

Agidyne··13 votes·790 views

No, seriously.

It's obvious Riot wanted the spell to be a teamfighting tool, something that punished the enemy for over extending by caging them in an small area for 3 seconds.

Veigars stun was never intended to be the AoE point&click Free Nuke button Veigar players got used to.

It was supposed to be a Zone COntrol spell.

His Dark Matter is hard to hit, and for a good reason.

It needs to be an unreliable Powerful Nuke that should be used as a Wave clear and not as another tool Veigar had to see how fast he could 100-0 you.

If you want to see a trully unreliable kit, see Sion.

The only thing pretty much garanteed to hit is his Roar of the Slayer, which is getting nerfed so it doesn't get maxed out first anymore.

Everything else he has can be dodged by just moving slightly away or sidestep.

Ofc this doesn't matter to you, you just want to have the option to land another 1000 damage nuke on top of me without me being able to do a thing about it.

Also, if items were enough counterplay to a champion, champions like Talon would have never gotten nerfed.

I mean, you can say item 3140 item 3111 item 3102 summoner 1 are enough counterplay.

Truth is, I really doubt anyone has ever won a game with a build such as this

Lucian item 3111 item 3139 item 3091 item 3102 item 3156 item 3065

Now I'm expecting this to get downvoted to Oblivion because people don't like it when the enemies dodge their stuff.

Instead they want to 100-0 the enemy from 1000 units and pretend it promotes any lane interaction at all.

33 Comments

tkmteam51583 votes

Its about time someone got up and told everybody to f*ck off. I'm sick of posting here and getting ripped up one side and down the other because you don't agree with the sheeple on these forums. Props to you man! I totally %100 agree! Up voted :)

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

Its about time someone got up and told everybody to f*ck off. I'm sick of posting here and getting ripped up one side and down the other because you don't agree with the sheeple on these forums. Props to you man! I totally %100 agree! Up voted :)

So what would be your input on Lee? would it be he needs nerfs. If yes you are a part of the sheeple.

tkmteam51581 votes

By no means do i think Lee Sin needs nerfs. He is pretty healthy right now, but alot of people are getting sick and tired of the high mobility right now, and its understandable.

Abyssphere3 votes

You spend the entire OP talking about what Veigar wasn't MEANT to do and how his abilities weren't meant to be used in those powerful ways, and how it's fair that Riot took away those strengths.

Guess what, he didn't get anything to replace them. Instant stun into 100-0 burst is all Veigar ever brought to the game, and he no longer has it. He also has no defense against ganks/assassins, no ability to ever use W on anything but minions and an arguably worse Q stack mechanic.

You're effectively telling people they should enjoy playing a champion that has no strengths. Why would they? Veigar with all of his former power wasn't even viable then, what makes him viable now? It sure as hell isn't waveclear with W and zone control with E".

Agidyne2 votes

{quoted}

You spend the entire OP talking about what Veigar wasn't MEANT to do and how his abilities weren't meant to be used in those powerful ways, and how it's fair that Riot took away those strengths.

Guess what, he didn't get anything to replace them. Instant stun into 100-0 burst is all Veigar ever brought to the game, and he no longer has it. He also has no defense against ganks/assassins, no ability to ever use W on anything but minions and an arguably worse Q stack mechanic.

You're effectively telling people they should enjoy playing a champion that has no strengths. Why would they? Veigar with all of his former power wasn't even viable then, what makes him viable now? It sure as hell isn't waveclear with W and zone control with E".

Potential Infinite scaling.

How is that not a strenght?

The mere fact of Veigar being in the game makes people not want to build Ability Power EVEN if ahead.

How is that not a strenght?

And how can you even say he got nothing in return?

He got lower cooldowns and lower mana costs on everything.

EVERYTHING.

He now has the ability to Poke you while stacking Ability Power.

Thing is, Veigar mains got too used to having a broken mechanic in their kit.

The mechanic got taken away and now Veigar actually needs to Aim his shit instead of just stunning you from 1000 units away.

His R still takes away 80% of a squishies HP in the late game, even with the 0.2 reduced scaling.

Hell, if you have 1000 AP, your R will deal 1500 Magic just by itself.

And it's not hard to get 1000 AP with Veigar, especially now.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Walking Titan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gTxYu6Km,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-02-26T17:46:24.438+0000)

Potential Infinite scaling.

How is that not a strenght?

The mere fact of Veigar being in the game makes people not want to build Ability Power EVEN if ahead.

How is that not a strenght?

And how can you even say he got nothing in return?

He got lower cooldowns and lower mana costs on everything.

EVERYTHING.

He now has the ability to Poke you while stacking Ability Power.

Thing is, Veigar mains got too used to having a broken mechanic in their kit.

The mechanic got taken away and now Veigar actually needs to Aim his shit instead of just stunning you from 1000 units away.

His R still takes away 80% of a squishies HP in the late game, even with the 0.2 reduced scaling.

Hell, if you have 1000 AP, your R will deal 1500 Magic just by itself.

And it's not hard to get 1000 AP with Veigar, especially now.

What I mean by strengths is reasons to be picked. Free AP just ties into "instant deletion" and with his kit being much, much less reliable at doing that thanks to the E nerf it's a strength he can only tenuously claim to have now. Forcing the enemy mage to consider their build is powerful but you're not going to pick him for that unless you're particularly scared of Cassiopeia, who will absolutely destroy him in lane anyway (and can negate his stun with her ult if she gets trapped anyways).

My point is - before this he had the strengths you list - free AP, making the enemy worry about going glass cannon, etc. He also had a reliable stun, some resilience against ganks/assassins and some good kill potential in lane. He's lost everything I just listed in that sentence and all he's got that you've listed is slightly better poke and lower CDs/mana costs.

It's not a good trade. Veigar typically poked well in lane anyway and had less reason to farm because of the stronger ratio on his ult. Reducing his mana hunger and making his cooldowns slightly better is really nice but it does not in any way make up for the glaring weaknesses they've introduced to him, nor the essential strengths he's lost. They've not given him any new way to harm the enemy, no new utility, no new niche. They've murdered half of his playstyle and not given him any sort of new playstyle to replace it outside of "oh but he can poke more now".

We'll see what happens when the win rate comes in, but I guarantee it's not just a case of "people don't want to play him without doing unfair stuff".

BluePolarizer1 votes

Infinite scaling doesn't mean good late game. Nasus could potentially have infinite damage but since his tankiness is finite and he has no gapcloser, several champs can kite him (Kalista, Vayne, old Azir) and kill him before he can even touch them.

Same with veigar. Against long range mages, he can have 9999999999999 damage if he wants, but unless he has flash he can't even touch them without them being CC'ed first.

Orbv1 votes

Infinite scaling is actually a competitive curse. Champions will lose entire games for their team because the enemy chose a champion with a phenomenal early and mid. And Veigar has always had to aim his stun, it wasn't a point and click stun, you could always plan ahead and move forward or back to avoid it landing right on top of you. now you have a full second to do that.

The thing is, do you honestly poke people with Lux's Light Binding through minions? You should, but it's hard and it's telegraphed. Everything is very telegraphed with his new kit. If anything Zhonya's and mobility counters him even worse than before.

GloriousKaiser2 votes

If you want to see a trully unreliable kit, see Sion.

wat.

Agidyne1 votes

{quoted}

wat.

Onslaught of Shadows is very easy to sidestep and can be dodged with mobility spells or flash. While Sion is unable to use flash to reposition himself during the ult.

Decimating smash needs to charged for a whole second in order to be useful. Otherwise it will just apply a weak slow and deal nearly no damage.

And Soul Furnace has no Guarantee it will hit aswell. The shield can be broken after all.

GloriousKaiser1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Walking Titan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gTxYu6Km,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-02-26T15:18:24.609+0000)

Onslaught of Shadows is very easy to sidestep and can be dodged with mobility spells or flash. While Sion is unable to use flash to reposition himself during the ult.

Decimating smash needs to charged for a whole second in order to be useful. Otherwise it will just apply a weak slow and deal nearly no damage.

And Soul Furnace has no Guarantee it will hit aswell. The shield can be broken after all.

All true, but isn't he supposed to be like that? A slow lumbering titan that sacrifices sutainable DPS for burst? And the ultimate is justified by it's extreme travel distance. Hecarim can't match that. Also it's funny when he shouts COOOWWWAARDSS when running away with it.

by the way it's Unstoppable Onslaught.

Agidyne2 votes

{quoted}

All true, but isn't he supposed to be like that? A slow lumbering titan that sacrifices sutainable DPS for burst? And the ultimate is justified by it's extreme travel distance. Hecarim can't match that. Also it's funny when he shouts COOOWWWAARDSS when running away with it.

That's the thing.

Veigar stun was never supposed to be that reliable.

It was supposed to a "wow, looks like you are inside, now you are fucked" not a "lol point&click stun op"

skyfall6194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Walking Titan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gTxYu6Km,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-26T15:26:27.220+0000)

That's the thing.

Veigar stun was never supposed to be that reliable.

It was supposed to a "wow, looks like you are inside, now you are fucked" not a "lol point&click stun op"

but he was. the reason his w has such a long delay is because you are meant to combo it with E stun. this is the main problem i have with new veigar is that his entire kit is unreliable for a super squishy. sion can get away with unreliability because he will get multiple chances to to use his qwe in a fight due to his super tankiness while veigar will not.

Agidyne1 votes

{quoted}

but he was. the reason his w has such a long delay is because you are mean to combo it with E stun. this is the main problem i have with new veigar is that his entire is is unreliable for a super squishy. sion can get away with unreliability because he will get multiple chances to to use his qwe in a fight due to his super tankiness while veigar will not.

It wasn't.

Riot themselves said it.

His W was designed as a Wave Clear spell that could be comboed with his E if the enemies tried to leave the Area.

But not as a Guaranteed hit.

Gorsz1 votes

Thats bullshit, if that was the case Riot had many years to change it.

Riot can gut any ability in the entire game and then say "well it was never intended" etc etc. They could literally use that excuse on any single change they want to make.

This is pretty bullshit, it would be like after years capcom decides to change how Ryu's fireball and uppercut work.

Agidyne1 votes

{quoted}

Thats bullshit, if that was the case Riot had many years to change it.

Look at the fucking spell.

Do you think a fucking Hexagon is supposed to be used as an Instant Stun from 1000 units away?

No, it's supposed to lock you in and leave you there.

Riot can gut any ability in the entire game and then say "well it was never intended" etc etc. They could literally use that excuse on any single change they want to make.

No, they couldn't.

They could never say Ezreals Q isn't meant as a poke ability

They could never say Braums R isn't a Zone control spell

They could never say Darius R isn't supposed to be an Execution

This is pretty bullshit, it would be like after years capcom decides to change how Ryu's fireball and uppercut work.

Lol

Why are you bringing Capcom into this?

They are like, 5 times more thristy than Riot when it comes to money.

I mean, they had people pay 40$ for 4 new characters lol.

Gorsz1 votes

You didn't really address anything but saying "nun unh", and then went an entirely different direction when I mentioned another competitive game.

Ok, so what you're saying is veigars spells has been doing something it was never meant to do for five long years. Give me a damn break.

Agidyne1 votes

{quoted}

You didn't really address anything but saying "nun unh", and then went an entirely different direction when I mentioned another competitive game.

Ok, so what you're saying is veigars spells has been doing something it was never meant to do for five long years. Give me a damn break.

Do you remember when Gragas was using his R to Barrel Snope people instead of Disrupting teamfights?

It had the exact same issue as Veigars E.

Gorsz1 votes

Uh... they didn't even change the way Gragas R works.... they lowered the numbers.

They fundamentally changed the way veigars E works after five years.

Agidyne1 votes

{quoted}

Uh... they didn't even change the way Gragas R works.... they lowered the numbers.

They fundamentally changed the way veigars E works after five years.

Exactly

Explosive Cask was being used for the Damage and not for the Disruption it brought to the table.

Although that supposed to be the most attractive point of the spell.

So they changed it.

Do you remember when Sion used to have a Point&Click 2 second stun?

They didn't like it, it was targeted, lasted too long and nuked really hard if Sion went the AP Route, so they removed it with the rework and gave him a more unreliable potential 2 knock up stun but that allows counterplay.

Do you remember AP Master Yi?

Press W and overheal every slight bit of damage you are dealt, even through Ignite?

It was stupid, so they changed it.

Veigar is not the only champion who ever had a massive overhaul on an ability.

There are many more. Hell, did you know Tryndameres passive used to give him Crit Damage aswell?

If he critted you once with an Infinity Edge, you would just die.

Riot tends to remove stuff that is not healthy for the game.

Darius R used to completely reset, Yasuo used to get shields for dashing, Lucian used to have his Dash reset with Culling kills, etc.

Gorsz1 votes

So ill bring it back again, they're such a terrible game balancing company that they leave unhealthy things in the game for five years.

Like I said, they can deem any single thing in the game as "unhealthy" and change it. Thats insane to me.

Count Tobi2 votes

I downvoted you because your name isn't the Walking Midget, to understand what it's like to be Veigar

BluePolarizer1 votes

Looks like Riot is catering to the bronze/silver segment, who think that getting 100-0'ed by a short ranged, immobile, extremely squishy burst mage is all that incredible.

If its that amazing, why is Veigar not pick-or-ban in LCS?

Sir Yamazuki2 votes

{quoted}

Looks like Riot is catering to the bronze/silver segment, who think that getting 100-0'ed by a short ranged, immobile, extremely squishy burst mage is all that incredible.

If its that amazing, why is Veigar not pick-or-ban in LCS?

A champion doesn't have to be played in the LCS to be good. Soloq and LCS games are no where even close to being the same. His squishyness or range is rather irrelevant when his stun was so easy to land making it impossible to reliably reach him even if you had mobility unless the Veigar was soo poorly positioned or had no clue what they were going. It only took me one game of playing him to realize how easy it was to win as Veigar.

Gorsz1 votes

Veigar had a bad pick rate, and win rate in solo queue.

Also isn't played by pros in competitive. Better nerf the dog shit out of him.

Sir Yamazuki1 votes

{quoted}

Veigar had a bad pick rate, and win rate in solo queue.

Also isn't played by pros in competitive. Better nerf the dog shit out of him.

How is having a higher pick rate than almost 60 champions "low"? If he ever had the popularity of other champions he would've just been nerfed right to the ground before the changes.

Gorsz1 votes

Anyway you want to try to spin it buddy. 4-5% pick rate is incredibly low, and which is it? Can Riot just magically claim an ability was never meant to work a certain way 5 years later, or does Riot Games leave overpowered things in the game for 5 years without changing them?

Either way, this game company is full of shit.

Riot has no idea how to make a competitive game. What if super smash brothers, or street fighter guts their fighting champions, fundamentally changing how they work, years later?

Agidyne1 votes

{quoted}

Looks like Riot is catering to the bronze/silver segment, who think that getting 100-0'ed by a short ranged, immobile, extremely squishy burst mage is all that incredible.

If its that amazing, why is Veigar not pick-or-ban in LCS?

It has been said many many times, the only reason why Veigar isn't at a Pick&Ban stage in the LCS is because he needs to max out his W in order to Wave Clear.

Which is the last spell he usually maxes

The same applies to Rammus and Fiddlesticks.

Rammus needs to max out his W in order to have successful ganks, but he needs to max out his E to wave clear.

Fiddlesticks needs his Q maxed out in order to gank properly but he needs his Drain maxed out if he wants to have any sort of damage whatsoever

Gorsz3 votes

So you're saying he isnt viable in LCS, but yet hes so incredibly OP.

Ok..

BluePolarizer1 votes

Uh so Veigar support gets played once, then Veigar gets trashed. Coincidence?

W waveclear, lol, people save it for the burst and just last hit usually.

Sirsir1 votes

In the League of Mobility its just too easy to dodge his stun. And by dodge it I mean get out of the circle before the stun even comes up so they don't dash out stunned.

Plus people were expecting a buff after the removal of DFG, at least a small one. This was without a doubt a nerf.

Don't get me wrong I agree that the stun nerfs were necessary, hopefully Riot is gonna play around with his kit a bit more, maybe reduce the delay to half a second, maybe even make the cage smaller so you have a small chance to actually land Dark Matter, and Vei will be fine.

Also that reductio ad absurdum buildpath.

Blastermine1 votes

Veigar's E was always broken op. However it was the only thing that made his laning phase work. He doesn't have insta kill burst until late. So the huge stun fixed that and gave him a proper threat radius. Now he has an extra 275 range on Q, so Riot decided that the E no longer needed to be so overpowered. Also 275 units takes about .75 seconds to travel.

Gorsz1 votes

We have a genius here!

Something was "never intended" to do something for 5 years? Sure bro, sure.

Btw, we DID learn how to use the stun properly. We have been learning for years, and after 5 years Riot up and changes the fundamental element of the ability. Stop blaming the players for this type of shit.

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