Sion is a strong pick, but are you serious?

MorgManBasher·Jan 30, 2019·72 votes·19,040 views

Like I get that Sion is a strong pick, probably one of the few if not the only tank worth playing in the top lane, but are you seriously throwing all these nerfs at him at once while barely touching the ACTUAL top tier broken overpowered non-sense picks like

Like, are you actually memeing right now with these nerfs that literally do absolutely nothing? Oh no, less damage on Lucian w by 10 damage..WOW. Oh no, less damage on Liss's gap closer that she barely if ever uses for damage...WOW. UNPLAYABLE.

Meanwhile Sion is getting 30 damage cut from his Q and adding 4 freaking seconds to his shield cooldown. Again, wouldn't be that annoyed if you actually nerfed people that are considered even stronger picks than Sion.

How many people are complaining about compared to champs like

Again, I can understand the Q nerf, he needs toned down but are you seriously hard nerfing Sion when these champs are almost untouched? Yikes. Sion will survive the nerfs, don't get me wrong by at least attempt to nerf things blatantly broken like how ridiculously broken is with aftershock.

84 Comments

SekiroFedTwiceJan 30, 201950 votes

Yeah man, I know when I see Liss my thoughts are "Man that e damage is BROKEN" Totally isn't the aftershock making her broken at all, def the e damage.

KioshekJan 30, 201921 votes

Lucian is getting mana increaes as well as dmg nerf. With that... he won't be able to use it so often without running out of mana easier. And mana is rather important for Lucian imo. And with the fact he won't be using it as much his E won't get as much CD reduction and he won't proc his passive that often.

Lissandra Similar nerfs here. Her Q is getting it's mana cost increased. So again... she won't be able to use it as often. With the fact that on champ dot gg her most frequent build and her most optimal build doesn't have any mana items, on pro build a lot of build doesn't have mana item either or build some next to last... this nerf may result in build changes... which would affect her dmg and gamestyle.

With Sion you yourself said his Q needed nerf. So I will focus on W. What they did is basically just nerf is early game.. where tanks SHOULD be vulnerable. His late game shield won't change at all. Or rather... once you lvl up W to max you won't feel any difference.

{quoted}

Yeah man, I know when I see Liss my thoughts are "Man that e damage is BROKEN" Totally isn't the aftershock making her broken at all, def the e damage.

You can't nerf a RUNE bc some champs are good thanks to the rune. It would affect champs that are perfectly fine with that rune as well.

MorgManBasherJan 30, 20195 votes

{quoted}

is getting mana increaes as well as dmg nerf. With that... he won't be able to use it so often without running out of mana easier. And mana is rather important for Lucian imo. And with the fact he won't be using it as much his E won't get as much CD reduction and he won't proc his passive that often.

Similar nerfs here. Her Q is getting it's mana cost increased. So again... she won't be able to use it as often. With the fact that on champ dot gg her most frequent build and her most optimal build doesn't have any mana items, on pro build a lot of build doesn't have mana item either or build some next to last... this nerf may result in build changes... which would affect her dmg and gamestyle.

With you yourself said his Q needed nerf. So I will focus on W. What they did is basically just nerf is early game.. where tanks SHOULD be vulnerable. His late game shield won't change at all. Or rather... once you lvl up W to max you won't feel any difference.

You can't nerf a RUNE bc some champs are good thanks to the rune. It would affect champs that are perfectly fine with that rune as well.

If you honestly think these changes are going to actually effect Lucian/Liss in any way you are insane lol. They are going to remain pick/ban without question.

They need to nerf aftershock on RANGED CHARACTERS. That's what they need to do, but apparently that's too hard for Riot.

WHY DOES LISS, A RANGED CHARACTER, get to be next to unkillable because of aftershock? She gets 2 hourglasses already and an escape, yeah totally cool she also gets to be ridiculously tanky without needing any tank items. COOL.

Also tanks early game is actually one of the places they are the strongest, before conqueror kicks in. Conqueror is actually really garbage early game and ramps up. Grasp > Conqureor early game. Once carry top laners hit late game there is no late game for tanks thanks to the true damage.

KioshekJan 30, 20196 votes

I believe it will affect them... I am not saying they will immediately be useless... but it will have some effects on them. Logically.

Well... you know which champs that use Aftershock are ranged and not broken? Rakan and Thresh YES. Theese two are ranged and imo they are not broken if they use aftershock... but if you would nerf aftershock on ranged champs you would nerf theese two as well. I personaly sometimes use aftershock on Bard and Morgana aswell and I don't believe they are broken bc of it... so why should they get nerfed just bc they are ranged??? (Maybe even other champs that I didn't think of.) So yeah... you can't just say "THEY NEED TO DO THIS" and don't think about how it will effect other champions.

With crit items changes true dmg in game will fall down. And I even heard that they want to remove Conqureor. So yeah... make tanks tanky AF for the WHOLE game so there is no room for beating them... good idea. Even if they won't remove Conqureror... champs that use it are not in every game.. but almost everygame has atleast one tank... so yeah... again make tanks unbeatable for any teams that don't have Conqureor user.

~~btw. If Conqureor is garbage early game... shoudn't you win the lane and make the Conqureor user irrelevant for the rest of the game? So why is Conqureor even that big of a problem for tanks? ~~

MorgManBasherJan 30, 20193 votes

Also your comment about Bard and Morg with aftershock as a defense to aftershock being broken on ranged is a meme. They have keystones they already use that are great on them, leaving a rune broken on champs because you like to meme on other characters that aren't even really using the rune isn't a reason to keep something broken.

KioshekJan 30, 20194 votes

I am not "meming." I really played Bard and Morg with aftershock before... I am not playing them this way now just bc I don't really play them so often anymore. ^^

Rolling SEvansJan 30, 20194 votes

While his examples aren't great its idea is correct. Regular tanks or engage supports are perfectly fine with aftershock. It's only the one or two use cases, as prevalent and abusive as they are, that are ruining the rune. The idea of the rune is great the way it is but giving flat resist is the issue. Revert it back to percent of current resists or health and maybe just lower the % value from before and you have a more balanced rune again

TobykachuJan 30, 20194 votes

Rakan almost exclusively takes Guardian and Thresh is broken in general and needs to be toned down in some way

Ravenous HowlsJan 30, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I believe it will affect them... I am not saying they will immediately be useless... but it will have some effects on them. Logically.

Well... you know which champs that use Aftershock are ranged and not broken? and YES. Theese two are ranged and imo they are not broken if they use aftershock... but if you would nerf aftershock on ranged champs you would nerf theese two as well. I personaly sometimes use aftershock on and aswell and I don't believe they are broken bc of it... so why should they get nerfed just bc they are ranged??? (Maybe even other champs that I didn't think of.) So yeah... you can't just say "THEY NEED TO DO THIS" and don't think about how it will effect other champions.

With crit items changes true dmg in game will fall down. And I even heard that they want to remove Conqureor. So yeah... make tanks tanky AF for the WHOLE game so there is no room for beating them... good idea. Even if they won't remove Conqureror... champs that use it are not in every game.. but almost everygame has atleast one tank... so yeah... again make tanks unbeatable for any teams that don't have Conqureor user.

~~btw. If Conqureor is garbage early game... shoudn't you win the lane and make the Conqureor user irrelevant for the rest of the game? So why is Conqureor even that big of a problem for tanks? ~~

I think you have made some great points but I disagree with conqueror. There are items in the game already to deal with tanks, mortal reminder and Lord dominiks regards. Conqueror is an inflated damage source on champions who are typically already oppressive. Tanks should be rewarded to some degree for building tanky but AS/AD carries, melee or ranged, should not get free true damage and instead trade a part of their build to include it.

KioshekJan 30, 20193 votes

Well I never said I like Conqureor... actually I really hate that rune. And the "Tanks should be rewarded to some degree for building tanky." Is basically what I want and what I meant with "tanks SHOULD be vulnerable in early game" in my first post. I think tanks should be vurlnerable in early game and tanky AF in late game with lot of tanky items... that's why I really like the IE change and the fact there is a possibility that they will remove conquereor.

The "If Conqureor is garbage early game..." was just "joke" targeted to the OP.

Ravenous HowlsFeb 1, 20191 votes

Ah... Sorry I misread or didn't catch the context you meant. Conqueror has been BS since it's inclusion as a rune. It was just Riot's sad attempt to assuage the cry baby carry top laners who couldn't snowball off tanks as easily. While I understand Grasp is stronger the point at which it over takes conqueror is usually the point the game is already decided one way or the other...

TobykachuJan 30, 201912 votes

Whilst you're right about Lucian on paper, you've neglected to notive Essence Reaver is getting reverted this patch which will likely become his core item.

FlemmanJan 30, 20197 votes

exactly my thought, ER change will negate those nerf

ThefrostyvikingJan 30, 20198 votes

Its worth noting that while ER gives mana and CDR it does however lose out in DPS compared to botrk, sustain as well.

Lucian will be easier to deal with in lane if he decides to rush it, short range means easier to poke and drive out of lane.

KioshekJan 30, 20199 votes

{quoted}

Whilst you're right about Lucian on paper, you've neglected to notive Essence Reaver is getting reverted this patch which will likely become his core item.

Em...

{quoted}

exactly my thought, ER change will negate those nerf

... you two act like he will get ER pre-bought like Viktor has item 3200 . lol He needs to buy that item... so either he will rush it and sacrifice other items... or he will get it later in the game. And no matter if he rush it or not... he will still play some amount of game with that nerf being in action.

And like... that's what usually happens with nerfs. You got your mana cost increased? You buy mana / mana regen items. So if I do this logic to Sion... his W is getting longer CD early.. so he will probably buy more CDR early on. WOW problem solved.

give head patsJan 30, 20192 votes

{quoted}

is getting mana increaes as well as dmg nerf. With that... he won't be able to use it so often without running out of mana easier. And mana is rather important for Lucian imo. And with the fact he won't be using it as much his E won't get as much CD reduction and he won't proc his passive that often.

Similar nerfs here. Her Q is getting it's mana cost increased. So again... she won't be able to use it as often. With the fact that on champ dot gg her most frequent build and her most optimal build doesn't have any mana items, on pro build a lot of build doesn't have mana item either or build some next to last... this nerf may result in build changes... which would affect her dmg and gamestyle.

With you yourself said his Q needed nerf. So I will focus on W. What they did is basically just nerf is early game.. where tanks SHOULD be vulnerable. His late game shield won't change at all. Or rather... once you lvl up W to max you won't feel any difference.

You can't nerf a RUNE bc some champs are good thanks to the rune. It would affect champs that are perfectly fine with that rune as well.

Aftershock as a whole is overtuned at the moment though. That few seconds of borderline invincibility early game is insane. It's especially relevant in the botlane. When a pyke for example pulls you with Q or stuns with E, you and your teammate literally don't do damage.

Beast BrawlerJan 30, 20195 votes

Okay I want to have a constructive argument on tank balance. I personally feel they should be stronger than most other champs in the early-mid game but fall off a bit later when everyone has their items and abilities. The reasoning for this is that tanks should have higher base values on their abilities and lower scalings, so they're not very good going full damage to incentivize them building tanky, or be useless later. This is where I feel Sion and Cho'Gath are unique, due to their infinitely stacking health mechanics. Malphite and Rammus are also rather unique, due to the fact that at least some their damage scales off of armor and mr (and ability power) meaning they can do damage by being hard to kill. Thoughts?

JuancaGadorJan 31, 20191 votes

they reverted lucian nerf...

KioshekJan 31, 20191 votes

Well I didn't know that when I wrote my comment, did I? .-.

Moody PJan 30, 20199 votes

About time, Sion has been stupid for too long

MorgManBasherJan 30, 201912 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gQ5XWJNa,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-01-30T11:47:44.933+0000)

About time, Sion has been stupid for too long

Again, he needed to be delt with but the fact they address him over the blatantly broken ones is beyond ridiculous.

Sewer SideJan 30, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gQ5XWJNa,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-01-30T11:47:44.933+0000)

About time, Sion has been stupid for too long

Fakts

ThefrostyvikingJan 30, 20196 votes

How is Lissandra OP tho?

Her damage isnt really super high, she doesnt have insane range or mobility nor does you need to play against her in a particular way.

Rather to me she just seems good overall, but especially in teamfights thanks to her passive, and the aftershock build counter assassins and divers whom both are popular at this time which in turn boosts her winrate.

A small nerf seems pretty reasonable, she´ll remain good in the good matchups and she´ll be worse in the others.

Lucian is more iffy though, he is strong but a large reason he is so strong is because all his counters are either weak or dead, to be honest i am unsure he needs anything more than minor nerfs while the weakest marksmen could use some buffs albeit preferably not to their damage.

IP MasquerenaJan 30, 20193 votes

Probably an assassin main.

What I discovered recently is that it doesn't matter how much damage something has, it matters if assassins can kill it 100-0 in 0.0001s. If the answer is yes, then it's balanced, if the answer is no, "broken op broken rito nerf"

MorgManBasherJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Probably an assassin main.

What I discovered recently is that it doesn't matter how much damage something has, it matters if assassins can kill it 100-0 in 0.0001s. If the answer is yes, then it's balanced, if the answer is no, "broken op broken rito nerf"

How on earth am I an assassin main if the topic is about Sion? lol Liss is pick or ban in solo que and proplay, how is she not overpowered? Even in twitch rivals she was picked almost every single freaking game, even seeing people go Liss vs Liss. The champs busted with aftershock, it makes her ridiculously tanky without needing any tank stats

IP MasquerenaJan 31, 20193 votes

"even seeing people go Liss vs Liss"

Well, your whole point is invalid, as only in Blind Pick you can have the same champ on both sides, so that's impossible to do in pro play or ranked.

Now, she's not pick or ban in every elo, as I've seen 1 Lissandra in the last 2 weeks in ranked and she was feeding.

For high elo, it can be understandable that she's a much more common pick, after all, she's a team fight monster, and that fact is what makes her such a dominant pro play champion, as those guys know how to cooperate.

As for the "assassin main", that was a bit of a joke, as they are ones who complain the most vehemently when something that isn't a tank (like Sion) is hard to kill.

Beast BrawlerJan 30, 20196 votes

Honestly it was extremely foolish for them to make Aftershock, which was advertised as a tank rune, scale off of AD and AP and not HP Armor and MR. Riot should just fix that and it'll be golden, problem solved.

Anchorit WracajJan 30, 20195 votes

Lissandra is not broken. Rengar is,Talon is,Kha zix is,Leblanc Is,Evelynn is. Well...we gotta say goodbye to a last true standing tank in the game..rest in peace friend.

JuancaGadorJan 31, 20191 votes

Rengar is garbage right now, you get fed or you get reported.

Evil WithinJan 30, 20195 votes

Honestly, I can get behind some Sion nerfs but 100% aftershock needs a nerf.... 70-120 armor for a mage that is pure denial for most melee champs is insane cough cough Lissandra

Abibyama IIJan 30, 20193 votes

Why would Lucian get nerfed when others ADC are getting buffed? Caitlyn being good again is his real nerf

And can you not leave half the things for Liss and Lucian while mentioning everything about Sion. Really convenient especially both getting their mana cost increases and both of them uses mana a lot

Really convenient

MorgManBasherJan 30, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gQ5XWJNa,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-01-30T12:30:54.967+0000)

Why would Lucian get nerfed when others ADC are getting buffed? Caitlyn being good again is his real nerf

And can you not leave half the things for Liss and Lucian while mentioning everything about Sion. Really convenient especially both getting their mana cost increases and both of them uses mana a lot

Really convenient

"Buffs" when all the items are nerfed verisons to their formal selfs. Not an ADC player, but to call these changes buffs are extremely pushing it considering we don't know how they will effect the game. So MAYBE, just MAYBE they can hold off on Lucian nerfs till they see how crit effects the game first, but overall it's suppose to be a net nerf numbers wise. As for Liss, if you think these "mana nerfs" are going to effect Liss you are in a damn dream world. Aftershock is making her so ridiculously overtuned, safe and broken and hasn't been addressed for so many patches now.

I'll tell you what, I'll trade that 4 second cooldown nerf on Sion's W for Liss's mana nerf. Fair trade, right? She can add 4 seconds to one of her spells and Sion can get the mana nerf. :>)

KioshekJan 30, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I'll tell you what, I'll trade that 4 second cooldown nerf on Sion's W for Liss's mana nerf. Fair trade, right? She can add 4 seconds to one of her spells and Sion can get the mana nerf. :>)

You can't "switch it" like this. If you look at their stats... Lissandra's mana basic mana pool when lvl 18 is 985 Sion's on the other hand is 1039.6. And Sion has even bigger mana regen. ;) And then the abilities comes to play... to use her full combo at lvl 18 Liss (without the upcoming nerfs) needs exactly 312 mana. Sion 285 mana.

So yeah... Sion probably wouldn't even notice his mana cost being increase.

QivuJan 30, 20193 votes

i think the liss nerfs are shit and unneeded

aftershock is the problem this shit needs to be removed

Flower BòyJan 30, 20193 votes

Sion isn't even that good tbh,same with ezreal who is also getting nerfed

BrightWîngsJan 30, 20193 votes

Sion did need nerfs was kinda aids but I agree shit like Lucain and Jax and even Vayne now are just gross and don't even compare to how bad sion is currently

KarfussJan 31, 20193 votes

They ALL needed nerfs, and they ALL got nerfs. Liss and Lucian didn't just lose damage, they gained mana cost.

Yes I agree, Liss and Lucian's nerfs probably won't do a single thing to put them in check. Though we can't go around pretending Sion didn't need nerfing, or is any less deserving of being nerfed. Lucian and Liss will just get nerfed again in the next patch.

BUDLIGHTBRONZEJan 31, 20193 votes

Sion is broken though

Pandemic PunchJan 30, 20192 votes

~~Where are you seeing these changes?~~

Nevermind, I found it. I don't think these changes are THAT big of a deal. His E max is still strong. I will admit that I am annoyed by the shield cool down nerf though.

Marian CrossJan 30, 20192 votes

Yeah we totally need a super tank still to be the strongest tank. He is such a bore to watch and play. plus they are nerfing the teir champs.

PB4UAMEJan 30, 20194 votes

Oh no literally only one tank was viable in any solo position or jungle, gotta gut him before champions that are actually pick/ban or warping the competitive/high Elo META. its Season 9, can't have a single fucking tank viable. Fuck defense, 100-0 insta-burst is all League has ever been about, amiright? Let's buff ADCs and Assassins some more while we're at it, and give them some new items, instead of the tank/bruiser items we were going to release for over 6 months. because, again, fuck all those champions, right?

Yets4240Jan 30, 20192 votes

cries in completely unviable tanks, missing Atma's and the abomination that has become of Spear

FOR JUSTICEJan 30, 20192 votes

a bit late, but they actually pulled the lucian nerfs btw. lol

DeusVultJan 30, 20192 votes

I think that they are nerfing Sion because he excelled at both being very tanky and also being able to deal a lot of damage. With lucian, he deals a ton of damage, but if you can land a spell or two on him, he dies. Sion, especially after the buff to Sunfire, can build pretty tanky and still do a ton of damage (albeit pretty avoidable damage) with his very high base damages on Q and W, along with E giving him armor reduction.

Frog goes mooJan 30, 20191 votes

I think this one was targetted towards proplay.

LovelleJan 31, 20191 votes

Which basically cripples him for the average player.

Frog goes mooJan 31, 20192 votes

Not really. Sion is one of the champs you can just blindpick because of how mind-numbingly easy he is to play. There was even a strat, that's still used today but not as prevalent due to the enforcement of bans, called "inting sion" that you would literally int the enemy team and still end up winning because of how tanky he was and how strong his objective pressure is. He's a character that gets rewarded for dying early game and can cheese enemy buffs. His winrate for the past 3 patches have been within the top 5 for top lane and his playrate complements that as well. And this is also a character that many people play when autofilled top lane so it's kind of crazy that his numbers are still returning that high.

I actually welcome the nerfs. Kind of tired of how safe that character is and how obnoxious his playstyle is. It'd be nice if they would nerf conqueror before they did nerfs to sion though, but he's still too strong of a top laner especially for a tank, both in regular and pro play. I just said that this is more targetted to pro play because sion, even as mind-numbingly simple as he is, still shows up a lot in proplay because of how safe he is and how much peel and cc he has.

LovelleJan 31, 20192 votes

Is he really that easy? I can barely do anything with him, even in his current state. I personally find Nautilus easier and more rewarding to play than Sion.

Frog goes mooJan 31, 20191 votes

I'd say he's really consistent. Maybe not easy per se, but really consistent and forgiving.