“Unfortunately for the live game, adcs/supports need to be broken to be played in competitive”

Fisher No Chains··89 votes·3,991 views

Disclaimer: I don’t want to make another thread about adcs being broken and stuff like that, I want to write about... why they’re in their current state.

Just found an old Phroxz0n comment that made me laugh; look at the second post: https://www.reddit.com/r/LeBlancMains/comments/6wqe87/comment/dmax6n1

According to Phroxz0n (and not Riot Games itself even tho it’s pretty much Riot’s point of view too), botlane is indeed in a broken state and adc/supports are overtuned. But... they need to be like this because of Worlds.

What the actual fuck? I mean, I’ve even stopped playing regularly because the game is everything but fun (and I’ll keep playing for decay only until preseason), and you care about worlds for... about a season? ADCs/supports have been in this state for like 10 patches, even more for some champions (cough twitch cough) and yet we’ve had nothing to fix the problem.

Really, years ago it was “the game could not be balanced for a month because of worlds”, now it’s “the whole season is garbage, but during worlds you aren’t allowed to have fun because we need to have “”””””””exciting”””””””” games to watch.”

Not asking you to fix your game, I’m asking you, Riot, to be transparent with the players and admit that making this game UNFUN to play for worlds’ sake is just a big slap in the face to a lot of live game players.

75 Comments

Critmaster Garen53 votes

why do they care so much that marksmen have to be played at worlds?

and by that i dont mean to make them generally unviable for pro play, but isnt making them an optional strategic choice instead of mandatory still the goal?

this looks to me like theyre enforcing marksmen to be mandatory for a teamcomp for the sake of it. even if its specifically for worlds games its stupid as hell, as theyre not letting teams the option to develop their own strategies that dont revolve around marksmen + supports.

AirKingNeo7 votes

I continue to hail my remarks that the balance team should be fired and my reasons are out in the open. Only those who deny them would not follow.

DeathBurst17 votes

That's totally not how I understood phroxzon comment...

The way I took it was: "Enchanters' itemization need to be that strong, or Enchanters won't be played at all in Worlds (and we want some diversity in champ select, so we want Enchanters to be played)."

Mindworm Jim4 votes

I'm pretty sure what he meant was that Riot doesn't like to shake up the meta too much in the patches leading up to Worlds and he just did a poor job of spelling that out. (As you say, the alternative makes no sense.)

WDG Devour2 votes

Marksmen are a pretty big part of exciting moments of gameplay in Pro Play. I know that for sure.

Somebody Love Me3 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen are a pretty big part of exciting moments of gameplay in Pro Play. I know that for sure.

I personally prefer outplays from assassins and similar champs, instead of point and click nukes

WDG Devour1 votes

Point and click nukes is more skillful and better to watch than a one click nuke or just pressing R with no kiting etc...

Somebody Love Me2 votes

I was referring to the mobility aspect, or the work taken to get a kill. I like watching outplays where the champ uses their mobility and kit to the fullest.

I don't like watching tanks out play you by just eating everything you throw at them and then walking at you and ccing you until you die.

Or ADCs just right clicking you to death, unless its an ADC outplaying another ADC or even an ADC outplaying an assassin, as long as skill is involved, not just pure stats.

Let's use Jhin for example. I like watching those crazy W baron steals, or blue buff steals from a mile away. I hate when its "OMG LOOK AT JHIN SO MUCH SKILL OUTPLAYED" when it was just him Flash Q 4th shotting someone for all their health.

I personally love watching Kat and Zed in pro play, but they're not reliable enough to be played, so everyone plays the boring, safe stuff that's usually more point and click.

Teridax6820 votes

A few seasons ago, right after Worlds 2015, I made a thread talking about how Riot's extreme focus on balancing only at the higher tiers of play has come to the detriment of its enjoyment at large, especially when it comes to balancing around pro play. I think now's a good time to bring up this discussion again.

To some extent, I don't blame Riot for balancing around Worlds. It's a time when League is at its highest profile, where everybody's watching and, through the quality of pro play, judging the quality of the game itself, so it makes sense to want to fine-tune that as much as possible, even if it hurts the rest of the game for a short time. The problem, however, is that even when Riot doesn't balance around pro play specifically, they almost always balance around only a small percentage of the League playerbase, and do so throughout the entire season. The usual cutoff point cited is Platinum, which means League is only balanced around 10% of all players, so it is not surprising that so many more are dissatisfied with the current state of the game.

This begs the question as to why Riot doesn't try to balance for more players: typically, the reason cited is that there's much more variance at lower tiers, such that balancing there isn't the most effective, and while there's likely some truth to that, I personally feel there's a lot more that could be done to improve things there. The balance team is stretched thin as is, as League is a very complex game with a lot of different players, but I feel at least some portion of the difficulty has been self-induced: when you balance champions by making them harder to play or more punishing when played poorly, you're setting them up for a ton of variance per skill level, which leads to major discrepancies across ranked divisions. Similarly, making champions or entire classes of champions rely super-hard on mechanics that have tremendous variance across divisions, such as support itemization requiring pro-level amounts of team focus on the marksman, also sets the game up in such a way that it can only be properly balanced across a tiny slice of the total population.

I think it's high time we dropped the pretense of all being elite players, and stopped asking Riot to implement difficulty for the sake of difficulty: wanting a champion to have infinite potential for mastery is great, but designing a champion to be difficult to pick up purely for its own sake is not good. Similarly, implementing mechanics with a huge variance based on cooperative play, such as the support-marksman duo, and doing nothing to make those mechanics smoother for less professionally organized players, including solo players, is not a good thing either. Asking for a champion to be more difficult to learn, or excusing problematic mechanics on the elitist basis of not being at a high enough ranked division to handle them, is simply asking for a less balanced game that will be harder to adjust in the future. Riot really needs to start looking into which mechanics have the largest variance across Ranked divisions, and needs to start working hard on smoothing these mechanics over, or at least padding champions who rely on them with mechanics that have an inverse degree of skill variance so that their power is more consistent.

As a side note, I'm kind of disappointed that this decision hadn't been made clear to us in an official Riot statement. When the devs announced a few patches ago that they were making targeted balance changes to specific champions just for Worlds, I thought that was perfectly understandable, and was thankful that they were being fully transparent about those decisions. Had I also known that ADC-related support itemization was being deliberately tuned around Worlds, I would still be frustrated with its state in-game, but would at least have been happy to know that Riot was aware of the issue, and that it was likely going to be addressed immediately after the competitive scene ended. The fact that the level of transparency around Worlds balancing has only been partial, suggests to me that Riot still has some improvement to do before we players get to stop second-guessing their decisions, and the intent behind them.

Morticianjohn4 votes

I totally agree. It's fine to have high skill cap champions but not every champion needs to have this great discrepancy between experienced players and players picking them up for the first time.

Teridax684 votes

Exactly, and on top of that, I feel often a lot of players tend to confuse a champion's skill cap with their skill floor. A skill cap or ceiling is the limit to which something can be mastered, and so is the upper bound to how well you can do, whereas a skill floor is the lower bound, i.e. how easy something is to learn. Ideally, every champion should have a high skill cap and a low skill floor, but I feel so many players confuse the two terms, or simply assume that a champion can't be both easy to pick up and challenging to master at the same time, that they end up literally praising a champion for being difficult to learn, even if that translates to horrible win rates at release and excessive buffs right after, as well as excessively complex designs further down the line. I'd happily take another updated Warwick over a dozen Yasuos or Kalistas, particularly since in those latter cases their initial difficulty usually masks serious counterplay issues.

Kloqdq2 votes

even if that translates to horrible win rates at release and excessive buffs right after, as well as excessively complex designs further down the line.

Ornn Feels good to be a hidden OP :')

Corrupt Bliss2 votes

I sort of disagree. From a game health aspect, champions like Garen are not that great. Garen is extremely easy to pick up, not difficult to master, and (at least for me) becomes extremely one dimensional and boring. I love high difficulty champions as they allow room for improvement. One dimensional champions lead to stale game-play in my opinion.

I believe the more complex and challenging a champion is, the more variety it can bring.

Teridax683 votes

But that is exactly my point, though: Garen is the other side of the coin, where he has insufficient potential for mastery, and as a result becomes a pubstomper who suffers in more organized play, like most juggernauts. The fact that he is easy to pick up is a good thing, the fact that he doesn't do much more when mastered is not.

What Garen needs isn't necessarily more complexity (that's just the information overhead required to understand the champion and make use of them), but more depth, which is the number of valid choices he can make at any given time. Garen is a notoriously shallow champion, where practically the entire extent of his gameplay amounts to pressing QWER in sequence, and facerolling the enemy if you're ahead. He needs to have a bit more nuance to how he plays, which means at least being able to use his abilities independently of each other for their own purposes, and not just fall into yet another pre-rework Xin Zhao combo. Adding this depth may require adding some more complexity, but complexity is not something you want to add to a kit for its own sake, as it is a cost, and not a benefit.

I also agree that champions who offer a continuous challenge tend to have more variety, but I completely disagree that champions need to have lots of complexity or this high initial difficulty to achieve that. Warwick is a prime example of this, as he's a champion who's expressly designed to be very easy to succeed with right from the start, yet who also has enormous variety to his gameplay and potential for mastery. Even more difficult champions like Bard or Sion have kits that are quite easy to understand, and that have some basic level of effectiveness that naturally scales with skill, namely the use of their ults over long distances. It is this kind of inbuilt fluidity to the usage of their abilities that allows them to be good at all elos, even if there's still a degree of skill variance.

Subject 519 votes

It's kind of funny because it's the 1% appealing to the 1%. In other words, the business is a business and it'll worry more about business than the community.

https://puu.sh/xLaHK/42655ba8ad.jpg

Fisher No Chains13 votes

Except that they get probably more money from the community rather than pro play?

I mean, after all we’re all customers.

Subject 52 votes

{quoted}

Except that they get probably more money from the community rather than pro play?

I mean, after all we’re all customers.

Whales make up a lot more money for Riot than the average player, numbers don't mean as much until long periods of discontent boil up to one major mistake; via the wilderness in Runescape. One streamer is equal to a thousand or so casual players, probably more - some pro streamers are worth more than 10K Casuals because they've bought literally every skin possible.

ChargeItDownMid4 votes

[deleted]

Skins Project2 votes

Please tell me your kidding.

A coordinated team that spends time practicing playing together, and being optimal when it comes to mechanical ability, balancing for them balances for solo Q?

Really?

Reallllllly?

That basically means, any champion with a high skill cap gets gutted, while champions with no mechanical poweress get buffed hard.

E.G. your proposing a Garen at 100% efficiency should be able to evenly match a riven at 100% efficiency. That is not how balance works.

Like this is fucking dumb, you want balance? Go play a single player game. #It Is Literally Impossible To Balance Shit If There Is Skill Considered.

I Main Swain21 votes
Slice n Dice em2 votes

So why isn't yellow called banana?

Auz the Ripper2 votes

Because English already had a word for yellow. Before the fruit orange (and name) was brought to england, the color orange was just called "yellow-red"

I Main Swain14 votes

i will say that adc's as a concept are incredibly difficult to have balanced in a game with as much damage, mobility, and cc as league. if they cant either survive for long enough of deal enough damage theyre just fodder for the enemy team, but on the flip side if you give them too much survivability through stats, items, or abilities or if you give them too high damage then you get what weve had for a large portion of this season

Teridax686 votes

I can somewhat agree with this. Kit overload is frequently a hot-button topic on Gameplay, but I feel beyond just some particularly egregious kits, League is a game where every champion is overloaded to some extent. Champions not meant to specialize in crowd control have multiple forms of CC on their kits, dashes and movement speed boosts are so common that having at least one gapcloser is considered the baseline for mobility in most cases, and at this point everyone has more damage than is needed, including tanks, a class not meant to deal much damage. In this respect, marksmen having access to burst through Statikk Shiv/crit, or tankiness through life steal and support itemization, isn't a unique case. However, the presence of these features merely builds up to an environment where champions need to be overloaded just to be considered valuable, which is why Ornn, a tank with 4+ different instances of crowd control and good durability, is considered weak purely because he deals no significant damage.

I feel if there's been one running theme for design issues this season, it's been the problem of arms races: when a feature exists that is causing problems, adding another feature just to counter it tends to make the issue worse and more complicated, yet that is the path Riot has taken for many of their more recent balance decisions: defensive support itemization, for example, was buffed in response to marksmen dying too quickly, which ignored the underlying issue of damage saturation in League. Grievous Wounds were made common to practically all classes in response to the increased power of healing, which still left life steal in a spot where it's too strong as a baseline. The only occasion where the arms race factor was reduced directly was with tanks, who lost a lot of health early on and no longer built Sunfire Cape, and even then, the lack of removal of anti-armor effects like Black Cleaver, Last Whisper, etc., and subsequent buffs to the base damage of several tanks, meant the problem simply shifted a little instead of being resolved. If Riot wants to address these problems and not make their own job harder further down the line, I feel they're going to have to start addressing these problems at their root, nerfing or pruning features that are excessive and dismantling the nest of counter-mechanics they implemented to paper over those.

I Main Swain3 votes

i feel like the only way adc's will every truly meet the idea people have of being a dps low survivability champion that's healthy vs other champions would be if they gave them an enormous range or a whole lot of self peel, the former of the two being unviable if for no other reason than the fact that interactions with turrets wouldnt make it feasible. otherwise, they will always be either very weak or OP because of their inherent nature.

i entirely agree about the direction league has been heading. theyve been overloading kits more and more, stacking large amounts of cc, mobility, and damage onto everyone so much that at this point any champion that doesnt have at least one of those and part of another is just not very viable. eventually, and if you ask me pretty soon, it will all come to a point where riot will have to do some major changes to a lot of champions. the simplest although not very desirable solution would be to lower champion damage across the board (adc's, tanks, mages, everything) however that could also lead to other issues such as painfully long games and shields and heals becoming too strong again. if you ask me riot should redo their latest tank overhaul and give some of them better and more balanced kits (Sejuani still salty that riot took my favorite jungler and shifted her from a late game team cc offensive goddess to a "remove one enemy champion from the game" bot) and give them some of their "selfish" tank items back so they can once again be actual tanks and not just kinda tough to kill supports. mages and assassins idk which would be higher on priority but both need some serious help. mage kits are fine but their items are crap, and vice versa with assassins.

and honestly ill say right now i could be totally wrong about whats going to happen and what they need to do but i can say for sure that riot needs to make more of a defined distinction between classes and champions. tanks take little damage and deal little damage but have a lot of cc. adc's take a lot of damage but deal really good consistent damage and have little self-reliance. assassins take a lot of damage and rely on fast ability combos but if they dont have their abilities or they get outplayed theyre pretty screwed. mages are squishy and entirely ability reliant and can deal a lot of damage that way but they have to worry about mana more than other classes and theyre entirely reliant on their ability cooldowns. it used to be as simple as that, when did that change?

Teridax685 votes

I feel range on marksmen is already strong enough as is, as it's allowed certain marksmen to turn into lane bullies and attack melee opponents with little fear of retribution. Perhaps range growth could be a thing, as it's already been added on Gnar to balance his laning phase out, but I also feel changing ranges tends to feel messy and unclear. I feel the main issue with marksman survivability right now is simply that marksmen get hard-focused by the enemy team, so of course they tend to die quickly when that happens. However, Riot's answer to this has apparently been to literally make marksmen so survivable that they can still not die even when being the target of literally every player on the enemy team, which is pretty much exactly the opposite of how I think the problem should be handled. I think this is but one more reason for why marksmen shouldn't be the only valuable carries in the game, and bringing some mages, fighters, assassins, even tanks or supports to similar levels of priority would allow that pressure to be relieved, especially if not all marksmen end up being carries by default.

I also agree, I feel Riot's driving themselves into a corner by overloading their kits. Just look at Evelynn's VGU: I like her new kit, but she now has sustain, hard CC (and soft CC too), two gapclosers and some utility on the side. In order for an assassin to compete with her, they're going to need a similar amount of features or just tons more raw power to compensate, which risks turning them into another Ekko or pre-nerf Zed. Similarly, setting the bar for tanks at 3+ forms of AoE hard CC, plus spammable PBAoE nukes, does not exactly make for a very diverse roster, and it's this kind of issue that I think has severely harmed Galio, Maokai and Sejuani with their own updates.

While I feel class definitions are a little softer overall than they're made out to be (it should be possible, even recommended, for a champion to go outside the typical bounds of their class, so long as they make proper tradeoffs for it), I also agree that class definitions are a little sketchy right now. Marksmen in particular are supposed to be squishy and DPS-focused, yet are among the best drain tanks in the game, purely because of how strong life steal is, and on top of that are also pretty bursty. Mages and assassins are meant to have high downtimes, but that has become increasingly difficult to implement in an age where items are saturated with CDR. Tanks and fighters I feel are the classes with the most overlap, as they're both supposed to be tanky and usually melee, yet only one class is meant to specialize in CC and the other in damage: during Seasons 2 through 4, fighters were considered better tanks because they had tons of damage in addition to decent amounts of CC, but right now many tanks are essentially better fighters, as they have better durability, better CC, often comparable mobility and quite a lot of damage. Designing tanks to have good base damage on their abilities, plus mobility and crowd control, has effectively turned them into more loaded and reliable divers, which is why I feel the Tank Update actually increased the overlap between tanks and fighters, instead of better separating the two classes.

This Preseason may not be the time Riot chooses to overhaul the game's underlying mechanics beyond runes and masteries (which is already a massive task), but I do agree with you, I hope at some point they look back at some of their design decisions and start pruning unnecessary mechanics off of champion kits, and perhaps even items. My personal philosophy here is that a champion should not have a feature on their kit unless it's meant to be an essential contribution they're supposed to make, and I feel there are a ton of effects that don't obey this at all, and were simply there to make the champion feel better, or just to add an extra balance lever in an environment where everyone already has excessive features added to them for that same reason. If the game is so hard to balance that champions need CC or utility added onto their kit to not snowball too hard either way, that should be held as a definite sign that the game itself needs to be balanced around being less snowbally, and merely papering over that flaw has caused a lot of feature creep, and eventually brought us back to a place where even the most overloaded champion can be too snowbally (some of them are even among the snowballiest champions around).

RainbowIcee3 votes

Good point, another point as the audience watching worlds it is almost more entertaining watching a mage or a top laner make jukes and plays and rotations to kill players, far more entertaining than seeing an ADC auto attacking something to death. What's more this type of scenario only makes the pro players even more scared to engage on a fight, we want to see entertaining or well played fights but these changes and balances only makes them want to fight less. I only really watch a few matches of worlds and never the LCS during it's season BUT from my observation from last year's worlds the pro players are terrified to duel each other for the most part. It's a clown fiesta now players are too scared to engage on their own based on skills they have to wait for the jungler or laners help to engage in a fight but quickly disengage if they don't have the number advantage. If a Rioter is reading this! I don't feel like watching worlds, the matches get more boring by the year, and it's not because the game got stale or there's not enough new things, it's because you're destroying the strategy in the game and making the game forced scripted were there's clearly only 1 winning formula. It's not exciting to see what would faker do, or what would TSM come up with. We already know, they're gonna farm, play safe and 3 v 1 someone. Then snowball objectives and push to win. That's boring as shit mates.

[zombie-brand-clap]

XDDD12 votes

As a solo laner, just knowing that nothing you do matters besides asking your jungler to camp bot makes it feel like I'm just queueing up to spectate. With the exception of being able to pressure bot somewhat. Whenever I get a jungle gank as a solo lane that goes well I always have the sinking feeling in my stomach knowing that the jungler spent resources in a role that's not important since I can legit never do anything with it besides choke out the laner.

Here's Scarra's opinion on same concept

CytheGuy12 votes

#BringBackDuoBruiserBot

Sohleks9 votes

I completely fail to understand why he says adc's being broken makes professional matches better let alone "playable"

Especially when meatbags and hypercarries is the most overplayed and consistent meta in professional play for years.

If anything it makes more sense to say adcs should be underpowered in live matches for professional play. I'm not saying they should be. But how on Earth did we enter a world where adcs need to be overpowered in normals for competitive play?

Blåbæret4 votes

Nothing of what he says makes any sense. He says a lot, but read it carefully enough and it's an empty space filled with text of zero meaning.

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

Something i noticed A LOT from rioters on reddit. Most comments regarding balance complaints are big empty walls of text

xJLx MCHammer9 votes

Yeah I kinda stopped playing this game once I realized the design philosophy Riot decided to follow

They constantly pushing for ADC to be the main and only carry. There are many mages left that can carry but the numbers are decreasing since season 4. They just buffed two mages recently (last patch). Mark my words, they buffed to decrease the CD but they will nerf the damage in a patch or two

Meanwhile, more ADC buffs this patch...

Anyways... worlds is fun to watch. I hate knowing say watching it is what makes he live game unbalanced

Verxint9 votes

Now this is some hypocrisy

Darius We can't MasterYi have champions Tryndamere be broken Yorick in solo queue XinZhao just Volibear for Udyr the Pantheon sake of Illaoi being Heimerdinger viable DrMundo in Worlds

Edit: Aatrox Annie Karthus Kindred Mordekaiser Quinn Shaco Skarner who else?

General Esdeath 8 votes

Riot please, stop doing this shit.

Blåbæret7 votes

Well, I mean, if they want to make the game complete shit for the players funding their economy then they are free to do so. Unfathomable that anyone would balance their game around the 0,1%. I guess Riot thinks watching right-click spam from the ADC is fun to watch (news flash: it's not).

The game feels like complete dog to play because of bot lane. Marksmen in specific though, have been an issue for many years. They need fundamental changes.

But hey, keep on ignoring your playerbase. Watch as people go play better games. Keep nerfing mages!

dominusx6 votes

How is watching that garbage role oneshot everything with autoattacks exciting? there is absolutely no skill involed to adc. BUT MUH POSITION bit'h shut the hell up. I die faster as a 6 item Darius than you as a 5 dmg items squishy carry with all the BS draintanking. Adc needs to become irrelevant and the entire game will become way WAY more fun to play.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

You clearly never played in season 3 for example.An 0/10 assasin one shots a 10/0 adc easily.How is that any different?

dominusx5 votes

beta player. and i'd prefer that meta over some shitty click a button and do 1600dmg per 1.3 seconds champion hitting me from 600+ range.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

Oh please,there is no adc that can deal 1600+ dmg with one aa LOL.And 2 buttons with stealth is nothing better.

dominusx5 votes

average adcs have like 1.7 1.8 as when their core is built. so yeh really rough math and you get that dmg in that time frame.

nGio5 votes

Yeah, I rarely play the game anymore tbh. I play to hit gold in all 3 divisions, then stick to some ARAMs, with a yearly visit for URF/Hexakill/One For All.

"Hmmm let's see what's new. Fiora reverts, Cait buffs, Vayne win rate climbing, Janna at 55%, and dumpster ass Nexus Siege. Be back late October to see if one of the 3 rotating game modes that matter are live."

PaffWasTaken5 votes

I don't even understand Riot at this point. At the worlds, I see an ADC right click on a champ and obliterate it, and THEY consider it exciting? It's far more fun to see some mage/bruiser plays rather than marksman that are litterally the most boring champs in the game. So no, it dosen't seem like Riot balances the game for Pro Plays, they balance it to their sole liking, their opinion on the game seems to be the only thing that matters

Sire Hippington4 votes

“Unfortunately for the live game, adcs/supports need to be broken to be played in competitive”

From my experience, this statement is just pure bullshit. Support+ADC is WAAAAAAAAAAY stronger in proplay than in soloQ by default, so adc/support have to be broken in proplay/high elo in order to be viable in normal games.

Most complains about adc beeing weak come from low elo players, most complains about them beeing to strong come from high elo, And it's easy to see why since adc have a hihg skill-ceiling beteen kiteing mechaniks and positioning, and they rely(or rather profit) more than other classes from good coordination and hihg team synergie, and all those things increase alot with elo.

The state of adc has nothing to be with worlds or riot focusing on proplay, it's just poor design decisions and balanceing within the last seasons overall that lead us here

ToddlerPacifier3 votes

Considering how broken catch up XP is (especially in the JG), I'm not surprised. They made it so much harder to carry after making far better decisions than your opponents

Dengeden1 votes

Really, years ago it was “the game could not be balanced for a month because of worlds”, now it’s NO

Yeah, you are so quote-mining him. This is exactly what he said.

And quite frankly, I don't think this quote is worth much. Riot always kneejerk nerfs champions for the slighest reason (and you ignore it, look at the Censer nerfs, 0 reaction from you), even if it's something monstrous like an ADC daring to be in the top 15 winrate list. So them or their employees calling something "overtuned" doesn't mean much.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Because riot didn't nerf censer. They even buffed it#s midgame. Ofc we are not reacting to something like that. Welp seeing how two teams always have atleast one ADC per side who all do the same more or less having one with an abnormally high winrate would kinda equal a zed with 60% winrate.

Dengeden1 votes

Yeah that 5% too stronk. Sure.

And lol no. Zed is in his prime was picked or banned every game, child.

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