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Another AD patch? 8.14, the patch that lied!

DW Diana··5 votes·2,339 views

Hi All,

So we all were expecting some changes to AP mages this patch. Why? Meddler described 8.14 as follows:

**Some 8.14 changes **

**We've just done some initial planning for patch 8.14. Some of the things we'll be looking at: **

**Monitoring how our changes in 8.13 that impact bot lane, gold/xp funneling and snowball have gone, in particular to see if we should go further in 8.14. Looking at mage balance, with a focus on mages who've been left in too weak a state after the 8.9 mana changes. We'll be assessing a range of champions for that, with changes expected to some, but not all of them. Some possible candidates include Syndra, Annie, Vel'Koz, Ahri, Cass, Viktor and Ori. Likely that some of those champions don't get buffed and some not on that list do though as we dig into things more. Likely a buff to Karma. We're working on some longer term stuff for her, but will likely give her some straight power as well in the short term. Potentially a buff to Liandries. **

The ONLY mention of bot lanes is "Monitoring how our changes in 8.13 that impact bot lane". So why do we ONCE AGAIN have Marksmen and assassins being the focus? We have changes to Fizz (not that I begrudge him this, he needs it and it has been a LONG time coming!), changes to caitlyn, tristana, varus and nocturne (poor guy only just got into the meta =/ ). We have costs being lowered on on AD attack speed and crit items. The ONLY mage change in the whole thing so far is for Taliyah, and that's a nerf!

Am I the only one who is starting to think that the promised Mage Changes, the ones we've been waiting for for several patches, are once again taking a back seat to the ADC's in bot lane, assassin's and other associated crit champions, or do you think they will start looking at mages now that they've done their mandatory buffs to bot lane?

Feel free to leave your comments below. I for one am pretty disappointed right now. Are you?

-- Loki --

23 Comments

Nhifu3 votes

Lux and Morgana are still really powerful in the mid lane, just saying.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Lux and Morgana are still really powerful in the mid lane, just saying.

Awesome. That's 2. What about the rest? xD

Also those two are mainly there as a second support, kinda like Karma mid was used to support later (though I hope they make her more carry relevant).

jocomotion1 votes

3 Zoe 4 Vladimir (both bot and mid) 5 Brand (bot) And two Average mage champs Karthus AurelionSol

These are all mages in a powerful state atm. Don’t get me wrong, overall the class is pretty below average, but don’t overblow their current weakness. Mages are at like a 4/10 (with 5/10 being average) and you’re treating them like a 2/10.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

3 Zoe 4 Vladimir (both bot and mid) 5 Brand (bot) And two Average mage champs Karthus AurelionSol

These are all mages in a powerful state atm. Don’t get me wrong, overall the class is pretty below average, but don’t overblow their current weakness. Mages are at like a 4/10 (with 5/10 being average) and you’re treating them like a 2/10.

Ok lets look at midlane a second.

Champion.gg mages you mentioned (including assassin/hypermobile ones that fit in the current meta...)

Champion Placement WR PR Zoe 5th 47.62% 4.30% Vlad 11th 48.30% 2.78% Brand Not played N/A N/A Karthus 30th 50.42% 1.02% Aurelion Sol 23rd 55.04% 1.46%

Yeah they all look great....

Don't like Champion.gg? Lolalytics doesn't make it much better, and neither does op.gg.

Then look at you list. 1 is hypermobile anyway, 1 isn't even in midlane because he can't complete. 3 more aren't even in the top 10 played. Then look at AD champions midlane... top 3, all AD with a combined pick rate of 17%. OUCH. Then look at the AP champions that ARE in the top 10? 3 assassins, 1 hypermobile hypercarry poke mage, and finally 2 more poke mages (1 working as a support unless late game happens, the other a roaming CC unless late game happens).

Final point to think about, there are 25 MAGES in the midlane pool, 14 hypermobile hypercarries. In the top 10 champions for play rate, 8 of them are hypermobile hypercarries, 2 are mages.

Note: I class hypermobile hypercarries as the following, and do not distinguish between AP and AD.

Hyper mobile: able to move quicker then normal through the use of abilities like dashes/teleports.

Hypercarries able to snowball and carry a team with just a small lead.

E.G Yasuo, Ahri, LB, Zed etc.

Mages need work dude, no matter how much you might like the current snowball or lose meta, mages need work. I'd rank them 4/10 if the average AP user was 5/10 and the average AD was 8/10, and THAT's if you count in some of them being able to be flexed to top (Swain/Vlad).

Frontline Fury2 votes

Uh... That's well and good, but you realize we're currently in patch 8.13, right? 8.14 is next patch. Also, mages are in a really really good spot right now - adcs are absolutely not. They were almost eliminated entirely from the game, and mages have taken their place in bot lane.

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fyvTT8Vt,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-03T09:21:47.169+0000)

Uh... That's well and good, but you realize we're currently in patch 8.13, right? 8.14 is next patch. Also, mages are in a really really good spot right now - adcs are absolutely not. They were almost eliminated entirely from the game, and mages have taken their place in bot lane.

http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html#balance

This is patch 8.14.

8.13 was already released (Remember the one with new Aatrox?)

OtterlyLost2 votes

You realize that patch 8.13 will be a three week patch right? .-. Theres plenty of time for changes to appear on the pbe for mages. The ones on there now honestly needed to happen though. There are not currently any mages suffering as hard in winrate as Varus; he has the worst winrate in the entire game with both cait and tristana only being slightly ahead of him. He needed buffs.

Furthermore, Nocturne is an issue that does need addressing though they didn't really address his real issue which is that his ult darkness lasts too long...

And you yourself even admitted that Fizz needed changes. These are all valid changes on the pbe.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

You realize that patch 8.13 will be a three week patch right? .-. Theres plenty of time for changes to appear on the pbe for mages. The ones on there now honestly needed to happen though. There are not currently any mages suffering as hard in winrate as Varus; he has the worst winrate in the entire game with both cait and tristana only being slightly ahead of him. He needed buffs.

Furthermore, Nocturne is an issue that does need addressing though they didn't really address his real issue which is that his ult darkness lasts too long...

And you yourself even admitted that Fizz needed changes. These are all valid changes on the pbe.

Ok, firstly this is patch 8.14, 8.13 has already gone out (mentioned this twice now...).

Secondly, it's not that I disagree with the changes. They are all valid and nessessary. It's the fact that Meddler went on about how he was going to work on mages and mage items in 8.14 for several patches. Every Dev Corner when someone asked about a mage he replied "8.14." Now that we're FINALLY in 8.14 the first thing he says is "Gunna be 3 weeks on this one guys!" and we're all sitting there going "Fuck it, an extra week means more work on mages right?" Turns out it was just so they could spend a week changing anything BUT mages.

It just seems to me that there were plenty of viable changes for mages that could have happened in other patches that were put off until this patch, and when it's finally their "turn", riot are STILL looking at the other groups they've been playing around with previously and ignoring the mages.

The changes to nocturne are superficial at best. Like you say its the duration of the darkness that's problematic for most people, and though 30% AD scaling on his ult may seem a lot, it's really not.

I'm not saying "these changes have no place in a MAGE patch" because that would be idiotic. What I'm saying is maybe on a patch where you say you'll focus on mages, when you've refused to look at them in other patches BECAUSE you planned them all for this patch, when you have so many people waiting for their mages to be playable again and holding out that it'll happen in the patch you have commented 10 or so times would be a mage patch, maybe, just maybe try to include more, or at LEAST as much, mage stuff then anything else?

Maybe it's just me...

OtterlyLost1 votes

I am aware of how patches work on live and on the pbe. You apparently arent aware that we will be on patch 8.13 for three weeks. There is still more time for things to appear on the pbe for patch 8.14. So chill your high horse and be patient. The balance team isn't one person; its multiple people. They can work on multiple things.

And furthermore, a lot of mages arent actually that bad off. Anivia is still good and so is karthus. And even though malz feels like crap to play, he actually has a decent winrate. Veigar and Cassiopeia aren't doing great but if they were, I'd be pretty upset; boards seems adamant that late game carries should be just that. Late game. It's their argument for having ADCs gutted and made awful.

Just a few mages that arent awful right now: Annie, ASol, TF, Ziggs, Taliyah, karthus, malzahar, anivia... they all have 51+% wr right now. Oriana even has a 50% winrate and she was considered pretty weak by mage standards.

The main ones that arent doing good are the artillery style mages like vel, brand, and xerath and I personally kind of hate when they are. They're pretty uninteractive to play against.

Where mages are really shining at is bot and it's not surprising... ADCs dont have the health regen, resists, or mobility to deal with many of the mages that end up down there... I honestly feel like them buffing mages is just going to make that more problematic. They should focus on what in the mid is causing problems for mages instead of buffing them and making them worse on ADCs bot.

Dope Solo1 votes

Best way to bring adcs, and mages back into the game would be to nerf the assassins back to something reasonable.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

I am aware of how patches work on live and on the pbe. You apparently arent aware that we will be on patch 8.13 for three weeks. There is still more time for things to appear on the pbe for patch 8.14. So chill your high horse and be patient. The balance team isn't one person; its multiple people. They can work on multiple things.

Which would make sense if they'd not been so stringent on "this is the Jungle patch, Mages will wait until 8.14" "This is the ADC patch, mages will wait till 8.14" "This is the Fighter patch, mages will have to wait till 8.14" "This is the fixing the last 3 patches mistakes, mages will wait until 8.14" Well here we are at 8.14 so sorry if I don't think that it's someone else's turn to wait their turn.

And furthermore, a lot of mages arent actually that bad off. Anivia is still good and so is karthus. And even though malz feels like crap to play, he actually has a decent winrate. Veigar and Cassiopeia aren't doing great but if they were, I'd be pretty upset; boards seems adamant that late game carries should be just that. Late game. It's their argument for having ADCs gutted and made awful.

A couple of mages are playable at the moment in some matchups. I played Malz into an annie the other day, was really good, but up against a Talon? Nah I went Illaoi lol.

Just a few mages that arent awful right now: Annie, ASol, TF, Ziggs, Taliyah, karthus, malzahar, anivia... they all have 51+% wr right now. Oriana even has a 50% winrate and she was considered pretty weak by mage standards.

Look at the play rates of those.... I still have a 53% winrate on malz (more if I counted Normals), but I'm a malz main, and it was 60%...

The main ones that arent doing good are the artillery style mages like vel, brand, and xerath and I personally kind of hate when they are. They're pretty uninteractive to play against.

Oooo if we're doing the "we don't like playing against them so leave them nerfed" then I can bet there are many more people would rather see at the bottom of the deck. The top 3 champions being played right now are ALWAYS hated, so I feel this might not really be a strong argument.

Where mages are really shining at is bot and it's not surprising... ADCs dont have the health regen, resists, or mobility to deal with many of the mages that end up down there... I honestly feel like them buffing mages is just going to make that more problematic. They should focus on what in the mid is causing problems for mages instead of buffing them and making them worse on ADCs bot.

Define "Shining"? You mean some (Swain, Vlad and Ryze) are managing to stay relevant in bot lane because they get a full time babysitter? How many of them end up carrying the game like a Kai'sa Ezreal or Lucian can?

In any case maybe you should look at the stats for them in bot lane. Top 10 played ADC position: Lucian, Ezreal, Kai'sa, Jhin, MF, Jinx, Draven, Vayne, Xayah, Yasuo, Tristana. 11th? Finally Swain. 12th? Vlad... with an amazing 46.5% winrate...thats 28/31

OtterlyLost1 votes

Shining as in, even if their playrate is low, many of them have a 53%+ winrate. I'd say that was pretty good. And as for the playrate of the ones I listed for mid, alot of them have 5% playrates; how high a playrate do you need?

And finally, they also said that they'd be releasing a micro patch in the middle since it was going to be 3 weeks until the new patch hit. They just confirmed that the AD changes was part of 8.13b. So again, chill your horses and stop being impatient. :/

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Shining as in, even if their playrate is low, many of them have a 53%+ winrate. I'd say that was pretty good. And as for the playrate of the ones I listed for mid, alot of them have 5% playrates; how high a playrate do you need?

"Many of them" being Kayle (who isn't a mage). I mean... just look at the site. Also playrate is just as important as winrate, if not more so.

It's like saying "Hmmmm a £20 note or 5 £10 notes. Well £20 is more then £10 so gimme the £20!"

And finally, they also said that they'd be releasing a micro patch in the middle since it was going to be 3 weeks until the new patch hit. They just confirmed that the AD changes was part of 8.13b. So again, chill your horses and stop being impatient. :/

They JUST confirmed that what they released were AD changes, not AP? Well that would make sense really given the fact those ARE the changes on the PBE lol. Evidently you missed the point...

OtterlyLost1 votes

Yes, the point is that you're self entitled and spoiled and throwing a mini tantrum because riot didn't instantly work on mages. Mage players do it a lot even if there are champions and classes in worse shape. Tanks really could use more attention than mages as I dont ever see them anymore.

And they just confirmed the AD changes as being a 8.13b micro patch but it has been known for ages that there was a micro patch in the works. Had you stopped pitching your ft, waited and been patient, and stopped crying victim for your class, you would have realized that this was likely the micro patch for 8.13. Which will be with use for three weeks.

And finally, before the micro patch, there were several mages doing well, both with a small playrate and without. Swain was doing very well with a 53% win rate and a pick of 5%(again how much pick rate do you need?). Now while the pick rate is small, the winrates of mages like brand, Swain, veigar, ziggs, and malzahar are still good botlane. If you need to play your precious mages, I really dont understand why you dont take them bot lane. they are viable there, the lane diversity is there. Make the playrate more meaningful.

Also zilean, taliyah, asol, ziggs, karthus, twisted fate, and malzahar are still fine midlane. Twisted fate has then highest pick rate in mid lane overall, I'd say he's doing really well.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, the point is that you're self entitled and spoiled and throwing a mini tantrum because riot didn't instantly work on mages. Mage players do it a lot even if there are champions and classes in worse shape. Tanks really could use more attention than mages as I dont ever see them anymore.

And they just confirmed the AD changes as being a 8.13b micro patch but it has been known for ages that there was a micro patch in the works. Had you stopped pitching your ft, waited and been patient, and stopped crying victim for your class, you would have realized that this was likely the micro patch for 8.13. Which will be with use for three weeks.

And finally, before the micro patch, there were several mages doing well, both with a small playrate and without. Swain was doing very well with a 53% win rate and a pick of 5%(again how much pick rate do you need?). Now while the pick rate is small, the winrates of mages like brand, Swain, veigar, ziggs, and malzahar are still good botlane. If you need to play your precious mages, I really dont understand why you dont take them bot lane. they are viable there, the lane diversity is there. Make the playrate more meaningful.

Also zilean, taliyah, asol, ziggs, karthus, twisted fate, and malzahar are still fine midlane. Twisted fate has then highest pick rate in mid lane overall, I'd say he's doing really well.

Yeah I was going to give a structured response, but then I saw it's primarily abuse and made up stats. Done with you now.

OtterlyLost1 votes

Not made up; pre micro patch there were several mages with high winrates bot lane and Swain is still listed as high tier through op.gg. but whatever, please be done. Nothing I said was inaccurate even the supposed "abuse"

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Nocturne is actually strong & pretty bursty. Imo, the thing I hate more about this dude is that stupid 4 to 6 seconds Darkness buff on his ult, especially when he takes Presence of Mind.

DW Diana2 votes

{quoted}

Nocturne is actually strong & pretty bursty. Imo, the thing I hate more about this dude is that stupid 4 to 6 seconds Darkness buff on his ult, especially when he takes Presence of Mind.

I know he is, he has been for ages tbh, but as someone who bought nocturne has his FIRST champion (actually a friend bought him for me when I was level 12) I have really enjoyed seeing him be viable for once.

The darkness on his ult was always there, they just increased it from 4 seconds to 6 seconds at max rank, and it's really the reason for his ult's name (paranoia). The nerf will make fuck all difference to him tbh, just annoying that the focus is once again on AD champions instead of the mages as they promised.

Fízz v21 votes

velkoz buff

[sg-ahri-3]

CestinoDiFrutta1 votes

B U F F

A H R I Ahri

OmegaNITRO1 votes

Simple, Riot is fairly stubborn, they went way too far with pushing snowball and gutting ADCs, they now realize it's a big problem, but they don't want to backtrack on what they did so far.

So expect AD tuning for a while until they come up with a solution that fixes their mistakes which is different enough that they don't have to undo those mistakes.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Simple, Riot is fairly stubborn, they went way too far with pushing snowball and gutting ADCs, they now realize it's a big problem, but they don't want to backtrack on what they did so far.

So expect AD tuning for a while until they come up with a solution that fixes their mistakes which is different enough that they don't have to undo those mistakes.

Yeah that'd be understandable if they hadn't gutted mages before ADC's...

R1bbon1 votes

To be clear, I'm not telling you what to do, this is simply a suggestion for you to consider.

In the future you should consider not structuring your board post like one would structure an article from a media outlet. I am referring to the sensationalist title, followed by the body of text, and closed with a "comment down below" and a signature. I am saying this, because people like me are going to read this and we're not gonna immediately think about what you're trying to say, but instead think, "Why is this guy being so dramatic about it?" Thoughts like this may have been what caused a certain reaction in these comments.

Also, the point many people are trying to make is that there is still time before 8.14 goes live, and the PBE could still update with new mage changes before then. It's also possible that the changes will ship straight to live. 8.13, the patch everyone is well aware is live now, is a 3 week patch. What this means is that this patch will continue to be updated during the 3 week period with Mid-Patch Updates. All of the changes you listed, are part of the Mid-Patch update. What this means is that all of the changes you listed will be coming before 8.14 ships out.

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