Hey Riot? How are the current Ult changes for Kog supporting his identity?

Rebonack·Oct 14, 2016·3 votes·739 views

Y'know.

A late game damage centerpiece that not only has great damage himself, but also enhances his team's damage with hybrid shred? Because the changes to Kog's Ult presently on the table are reducing its scaling drastically in exchange for a slightly better early/mid game.

I seem to recall the last time Riot decided to remove scaling on one of Kog's abilities in exchange for more base damage it didn't turn out so great.

10 Comments

SergeantScuttlerOct 14, 20161 votes

I'm not sure but I think it's still a buff to his ult. from what it is now (which isn't saying much).

RebonackOct 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure but I think it's still a buff to his ult. from what it is now (which isn't saying much).

It's a slight buff against healthy targets (30 more base damage) and a pretty massive nerf against low health targets (x2 instead of x3, including the ratios). The Ult will still be a waste of mana if it is being used as a poke tool, just compare it to what Ez or Corki can put out.

Whether it is a nerf or not is largely immaterial to this topic, though. What I want to know is how these changes are actually helping Kog to have a reason for existing, because he's sorely lacking in one of those at the moment.

Kog And BallsOct 14, 20161 votes

The mana changes are a buff, but the hit the damage is going to take is not remotely worth it. Yeah you're gonna get a little more out of the ability on higher health targets, but making it harder for Kog to finish off lower health targets is not going to help his early/mid game at all.

I can't get a read on what these changes are supposed to accomplish, but they are going to hurt Kogs ability to secure a lead. Its like if they nerfed Jinx's ult damage by 1/3, but reduced the mana cost by 60.

ErockandrollOct 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cucked Maw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=flsf3OvQ,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-10-14T04:23:51.262+0000)

The mana changes are a buff, but the hit the damage is going to take is not remotely worth it. Yeah you're gonna get a little more out of the ability on higher health targets, but making it harder for Kog to finish off lower health targets is not going to help his early/mid game at all.

I can't get a read on what these changes are supposed to accomplish, but they are going to hurt Kogs ability to secure a lead. Its like if they nerfed Jinx's ult damage by 1/3, but reduced the mana cost by 60.

Not sure if that's a fair assessment of his ult. I'm not even certain how his ult scales, one aspect says it increases up to 150% based on missing health. another figure say it doubles against targets below 40% HP. and no clarity on if or how those two figures stack. (also, it's possible that "securing kills" is something that Riot wanted to avoid. That would result in a hypercarry who snowballs.)

But that in mind, you can't discount the mana reduction. and comparing it to Jinx ult is poor, as those ults are used in different ways. Partially because his ult only has a 2 second cooldown, (so a lower mana cost means a lot more ults) but also the fact that the subsequent casts are also reduced to 40. So comparing 50,100,150 to 40,80,120 over the coarse of 3 shots, you saved 60 mana. Also combined with the fact that the mana cost reset is also being reduced.

As for how this might affect his mid game. Their probably pushing his ult as DPS tool, and not just as an assassination tool. This would probably also promote his old Tri Force build, as he would get plenty of spellblade procs.

RebonackOct 14, 20163 votes

{quoted} As for how this might affect his mid game. Their probably pushing his ult as DPS tool, and not just as an assassination tool. This would probably also promote his old Tri Force build, as he would get plenty of spellblade procs.

Soooorta.

But y'know what would promote his old Triforce build even more?

A fully reverted Ult!

And the damage amp based on missing HP effects don't stack. It's one or the other.

ErockandrollOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Soooorta.

But y'know what would promote his old Triforce build even more?

A fully reverted Ult!

And the damage amp based on missing HP effects don't stack. It's one or the other.

If that's how the damage amp works, they certainly didn't make that clear.

And perhaps his old Ult would have been more supportive in a DPS build, but I think we all Know Why Riot won't do that. They have no intention of seeing his old AP siege build. (I don't recall them saying why, they just gutted it. My best guess is they didn't like how it interacted with Crystal scepter. )

[{quoted}](name=Cucked Maw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=flsf3OvQ,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2016-10-14T13:51:33.999+0000)

The thing is Hyper Carrys traditionally have abilities that allow them to secure kills and snowball. Jinx heavily relies on her ultimate to secure the first kill that allows her to begin her chain of passive procs that then allow her to snowball a single kill into many. Twitch has his stealth reset on kill and contaminate to finish targets that stray out of his AA range. Even Tristana with her burst combo and jump reset can snowball a single kill in bot lane to an easy double kill. So its not really something Riot wants to avoid its actually a mainstay of Hyper Carrys everywhere.

Yeah, and people thought it was cancer. Riot nerfed Jinx, BECAUSE she was a Hyper carry who snowballed. (Also remember that was back in a day where Hyper carries were actually meta.) And really, you shouldn't even need to focus on Securing kills, as long as you are offering enough DPS. Cause that's your job as the ADC.

Kog And BallsOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, and people thought it was cancer. Riot nerfed Jinx, BECAUSE she was a Hyper carry who snowballed. (Also remember that was back in a day where Hyper carries were actually meta.) And really, you shouldn't even need to focus on Securing kills, as long as you are offering enough DPS. Cause that's your job as the ADC.

You are using the wrong tense SHE IS a hyper carry who snowballs probably the hyper carry who snowballs the hardest and she has come back into meta sitting at a comfortable 24.5% pick rate.

And you should focus on securing kills as an ADC your team should feed you kills when they can. You are literally the backbone of your team there to dish out damage in spades this goes doubly for Hyper Carrys who don't spike until they complete 2 or 3 big items. WTF do you mean don't focus on kills? Janna isn't suddenly gonna become a monster carry if she gets 3 kills. Buddy where is the logic?

RebonackOct 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If that's how the damage amp works, they certainly didn't make that clear.

And perhaps his old Ult would have been more supportive in a DPS build, but I think we all Know Why Riot won't do that. They have no intention of seeing his old AP siege build. (I don't recall them saying why, they just gutted it. My best guess is they didn't like how it interacted with Crystal scepter. )

Kog was using the new Crystal Scepter for several months and wasn't an issue at all. Reasonable (though not overbearing) win rate, lowish pick rate. Most aggressive mid-laners could shut him down pretty easily and I don't think I've seen anyone complain about AP Kog being Op since Athene's was added to the game.

If Riot wants Kog to have an Ult that's useless for poke, then they should just give him a totally new Ult instead of pussy-footing around the problem.

Kog And BallsOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not sure if that's a fair assessment of his ult. I'm not even certain how his ult scales, one aspect says it increases up to 150% based on missing health. another figure say it doubles against targets below 40% HP. and no clarity on if or how those two figures stack. (also, it's possible that "securing kills" is something that Riot wanted to avoid. That would result in a hypercarry who snowballs.)

If you hit someone above the 40% life threshold you get the up to 150% based on missing health damage anyone below the threshold takes double no extra damage just double the base.

The thing is Hyper Carrys traditionally have abilities that allow them to secure kills and snowball. Jinx heavily relies on her ultimate to secure the first kill that allows her to begin her chain of passive procs that then allow her to snowball a single kill into many. Twitch has his stealth reset on kill and contaminate to finish targets that stray out of his AA range. Even Tristana with her burst combo and jump reset can snowball a single kill in bot lane to an easy double kill. So its not really something Riot wants to avoid its actually a mainstay of Hyper Carrys everywhere.

But that in mind, you can't discount the mana reduction. and comparing it to Jinx ult is poor, as those ults are used in different ways. Partially because his ult only has a 2 second cooldown, (so a lower mana cost means a lot more ults) but also the fact that the subsequent casts are also reduced to 40. So comparing 50,100,150 to 40,80,120 over the coarse of 3 shots, you saved 60 mana. Also combined with the fact that the mana cost reset is also being reduced.

Both Kog ult and Jinx ult serve the same purpose to execute low health targets that have gotten away from them. Sure Kog ult has a lower cooldown, but you typically only get 3 shots to finish someone before they make it to safety.

Veteran Kog players aren't losing sleep over the base mana cost being 50 or the reset being 2 seconds shorter. 60 mana and 2 seconds isn't making or breaking games for them. If you are new to Kog and are still learning to be aware of your ults cost then yes the mana cost buff now means you get 5 shots instead of 4 now, but new players are always going to have the problem of taxing their mana to much with Kog ult thats part of his learning curve.

As for how this might affect his mid game. Their probably pushing his ult as DPS tool, and not just as an assassination tool. This would probably also promote his old Tri Force build, as he would get plenty of spellblade procs.

His ult used to be a DPS tool until they reworked it. This is a nerf do not be disillusioned by Riot cause they would lead the community to believe this is a buff and it just isn't. This is the lowest damage incarnation of his ult we've seen yet. As Kanye said right after patch 5.22.

Riot Doesn't care about Kog players

RebonackOct 15, 20161 votes

Man, sure would be swell if Riot would actually talk with Kog's players.