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Not saying its good, but I can understand why damage is high

dontspinbutwin··4 votes·3,531 views

I honestly think that it's because of season 4. The infamous tank meta, where tanks were so effective that it was common to see many tanks in 1 game, and it was common to build full tank on assassins and still one shot squishies. I think riot doesn't want to recreate that, and as such, keep damage somewhat high, so tanks melt quite fast.

...However, its an idea thats only good on paper, extremely poor in execution: Damage is so high it punishes anyone who gets caught out equally, be it tanks or adcs. We've gone to the polar opposite of the spectrum, where damage is high and tanks are low. There are other questionable "nerfs", with the kaisa "nerf", the riven "we nerfed her too hard so heres a buff", and kicking poor aatrox down into the dirt. It's kinda clear that damage is kept high/adjusted specifically for what is fun to see in the LCS, and while I don't blame them for wanting the money from skins or tickets, it is a bit worrisome about the future of this game.

I hope a middle ground is somehow found, between "why is 300 armor talon one shotting me" and "why is maokai one shotting me" :/

20 Comments

SEKAI2 votes

Season 4 also had Feral Flare completely busting the game in and out, which then haunted Season 5 by becoming Devourer.

But ofc, people only remember that brief time when tank was good, and they were good in a sense that they probably did too much damage. So cool idea by making everyone do crazy damage, I guess.

Pika Fox1 votes

Damage really isnt all that high, and tanks arent going to just up and die quickly unless a DPS is on them, and most strong DPS that can do so in seconds just dont exist until 3+ items deep.

Jamaree1 votes

I don't even think damage is that high, I just think people remember not building any defenses and surviving the full burst of an assassin like that was somehow fair. Most post of people complaining about a champion doing too much damage or damage being too high tends to be games where they are playing naturally squishy champions, with not a single defensive item, against a fed opponent that had multiple levels on them. At that point, why SHOULDN'T you be one shot?

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

I don't even think damage is that high, I just think people remember not building any defenses and surviving the full burst of an assassin like that was somehow fair. Most post of people complaining about a champion doing too much damage or damage being too high tends to be games where they are playing naturally squishy champions, with not a single defensive item, against a fed opponent that had multiple levels on them. At that point, why SHOULDN'T you be one shot?

I play Mundo and build him almost entirely full tank (I say almost because sometimes I slide in a Liandry's Torment; and I don't have the habit of building Stoneplate, maybe I should get around to that at some point), I frequently walk out of a match with a combined 100k-150k on damage taken and damage mitigation. That isn't even the main dish, I point that out because I often don't feel it during the game since in most encounters I die instantly (talking about clocking in a single second or 2) when any number of enemies that's 3 or higher decide to focus on me. So if anything, that's the combined number of the busted overkill burst I took and died with instead of the amount of damage I "tanked".

Also, remember in earlier seasons when doing 30k damage on champions only comes from long matches and it would be enough to herald you as the mvp and the damage god of the match? Nowadays, we're looking at something like anywhere between 40-80k. There is definitely a substantial amount of additional damage being injected compared to the previous seasons.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

I play Mundo and build him almost entirely full tank (I say almost because sometimes I slide in a Liandry's Torment; and I don't have the habit of building Stoneplate, maybe I should get around to that at some point), I frequently walk out of a match with a combined 100k-150k on damage taken and damage mitigation. That isn't even the main dish, I point that out because I often don't feel it during the game since in most encounters I die instantly (talking about clocking in a single second or 2) when any number of enemies that's 3 or higher decide to focus on me, so if anything, that's the combined number of the busted overkill bursted I took and died with instead of the amount of damage I "tanked".

Also, remember in earlier seasons when doing 30k damage on champions only comes from long matches and it would be enough to herald you as the mvp and the damage god of the match? Nowadays, we're looking at something like anywhere between 40-80k. There is definitely a substantial amount of additional damage being injected compared to the previous seasons.

Do you have any pictures to support this?

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

Do you have any pictures to support this?

No, and I'm lazy to login to check since opgg doesn't seem to record very far back. EDIT: My Mundo game is now too far back to be on the match history anyway; just checked by logging onto client.

But you can test it yourself and play Mundo and build most of the typical stuff (but skip Stoneplate given I don't use it often), and see how long you last in any encounter where you're focused by more than 2 people at the same time (ofc, they have to be reasonably fed and not just you steamrolling through a snowball game). You probably would often feel that you don't feel as tanky as you thought you would be.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

No, and I'm lazy to login to check since opgg doesn't seem to record very far back. EDIT: My Mundo game is now too far back to be on the match history anyway; just checked by logging onto client.

But you can test it yourself and play Mundo and build most of the typical stuff (but skip Stoneplate given I don't use it often), and see how long you last in any encounter where you're focused by more than 2 people at the same time (ofc, they have to be reasonably fed and not just you steamrolling through a snowball game). You probably would often feel that you don't feel as tanky as you thought you would be.

I personally don't think you should be able to tank multiple people for long amounts of time to be fair.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

I personally don't think you should be able to tank multiple people for long amounts of time to be fair.

If you're a full tank Mundo or full tank in general, you really should be holding up for a solid amount of seconds even under heavy burst from multiple people.

I think at this stage basically either you have to go Stoneplate to actually tank stuff or you go bust (which Stoneplate completely kills your damage output so it's not like it's without a heavy cost). Things could be smoothen out.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

If you're a full tank Mundo or full tank in general, you really should be holding up for a solid amount of seconds even under heavy burst from multiple people.

I think at this stage basically either you have to go Stoneplate to actually tank stuff or you go bust (which Stoneplate completely kills your damage output so it's not like it's without a heavy cost). Things could be smoothen out.

It should be one or the other, you shouldn’t get to do damage while tanking five people, I don’t see how that would be fair.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

It should be one or the other, you shouldn’t get to do damage while tanking five people, I don’t see how that would be fair.

That will be true if only Riot doesn't inject all the sustain options in the world to damage doers. Most of the greatest defence items in the game are all hybrid mix offence-defence items, and Riot has introduced an obscene amount of leeching into the game (specifically to AD and spam-casters) when they know we're in a damage meta. All of this results in damage dealers being comparable or even significantly more tanky than actual tanks, while dealing immensely more damage.

Riot is also on a train to reduce the reliability of the tank's CC too and put them onto damage dealers too. How nice.

Magnesium141 votes

{quoted}

It should be one or the other, you shouldn’t get to do damage while tanking five people, I don’t see how that would be fair.

What's the use then, You are only stalling your death, because tanks cant escape and if they don't damage theirs nothing they can do, all tanks should just be converted to juggernauts like Nasus and Darius.

dontspinbutwin1 votes

Heres the thing: there are times where I've built 200ish armor and still struggled to survive against a fed ADC, or even an ad assassin. Lets say the enemy adc has around 320 ad. if I have around the average of 200 armor, I should be taking 120 damage per auto. With an average HP pool of 3600 hp (rounded a bit up to make division mildly easier) per tank, that means I die in about 30 autos.... not including crits or abilities or attack speed (which usually averages for an ADC to about 1.6), and not including other enemies, including those who's primary is AP.

Tanks should be meatshields. But they shouldn't feel horrible to play, and they definitely shouldn't be defined on whether they're successful or not by how good the backlines are on both teams. Tank's shouldn't be invulnerable to punishment for overextension or gettin caught out, but they also should have some form of threat against the enemy as well.

Jamaree2 votes

{quoted}

Heres the thing: there are times where I've built 200ish armor and still struggled to survive against a fed ADC, or even an ad assassin. Lets say the enemy adc has around 320 ad. if I have around the average of 200 armor, I should be taking 120 damage per auto.

Not how the damage is calculated at all.

With an average HP pool of 3600 hp (rounded a bit up to make division mildly easier) per tank, that means I die in about 30 autos.... not including crits or abilities or attack speed (which usually averages for an ADC to about 1.6), and not including other enemies, including those who's primary is AP.

With how easy it is to get 200 armor, I personally don't think that is fair to expect to take that many shots.

Tanks should be meatshields. But they shouldn't feel horrible to play, and they definitely shouldn't be defined on whether they're successful or not by how good the backlines are on both teams. Tank's shouldn't be invulnerable to punishment for overextension or gettin caught out, but they also should have some form of threat against the enemy as well.

I agree, but I also don't think you should get to do no damage while ahead just because your opponent bought 1 or 2 damage items.

Saezio1 votes

Just go watch season 3 world championship and the damage and ADC did to a full tank compared to now.

Back then, a full double shuriken + E from zed in lane was 20% of the enemy's HP at best. I think you are not taking into account how much more damage and how much less defences the current rune system provides compared to the old runes+masteries.

I am not saying assassins were in a healthy state back then, but Zed/Ahri/K6 were all being picked in pro (remember the famous Faker vs Ryu 1v1 with zeds?)

Right now there are oneshots everywhere, without even playing the combos perfectly. LB needed to get her opponent to like 40% to all in them with ignite, Today, LB picks TP and still oneshots from 80% hp.

Damage IS that high. And defences are lower as well.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

Just go watch season 3 world championship and the damage and ADC did to a full tank compared to now.

Back then, a full double shuriken + E from zed in lane was 20% of the enemy's HP at best. I think you are not taking into account how much more damage and how much less defences the current rune system provides compared to the old runes+masteries.

I don’t think that was good though, why should you do so little damage while that was the only thing you did.

I am not saying assassins were in a healthy state back then, but Zed/Ahri/K6 were all being picked in pro (remember the famous Faker vs Ryu 1v1 with zeds?)

Right now there are oneshots everywhere, without even playing the combos perfectly. LB needed to get her opponent to like 40% to all in them with ignite, Today, LB picks TP and still oneshots from 80% hp.

Damage IS that high. And defences are lower as well.

Doesn’t help that people don’t even buy defenses period either.

Pandemic Punch1 votes

Well when it has been 5 seasons since the Tank class was good, that is problematic. You would think Riot would attempt to switch things up every season. Have a season where Tanks can shine then have a season where they don't. Have a season where Assassins are good and a season where they aren't. Mages, Hyper carry ADC's, Caster ADC's, etc etc etc..

Instead, it has been high burst with almost no Tanks for nearly 3 seasons. Very boring. They need to switch it up to keep things fresh.

D4M2X01 votes

tanks+bruisers were equally strong in season 4-5 and assassins required getting fed otherwise they resorted to splitpushing. bruisers had to adapt their build towards the situation while tanks built fulltank.

now what happens since season 8?

tanks build full AP. bruisers build full dmg. stealth 1 clickers can go 0-7 early but its ok theyl still 1 click u and end up 18-9

Darkdemon6531 votes

There has been a point where tanks did too much damage. There was never a point where they didn't take enough damage.

Exin01 votes

{quoted}

I honestly think that it's because of season 4. The infamous tank meta, where tanks were so effective that it was common to see many tanks in 1 game, and it was common to build full tank on assassins and still one shot squishies. I think riot doesn't want to recreate that, and as such, keep damage somewhat high, so tanks melt quite fast.

...However, its an idea thats only good on paper, extremely poor in execution: Damage is so high it punishes anyone who gets caught out equally, be it tanks or adcs. We've gone to the polar opposite of the spectrum, where damage is high and tanks are low. There are other questionable "nerfs", with the kaisa "nerf", the riven "we nerfed her too hard so heres a buff", and kicking poor aatrox down into the dirt. It's kinda clear that damage is kept high/adjusted specifically for what is fun to see in the LCS, and while I don't blame them for wanting the money from skins or tickets, it is a bit worrisome about the future of this game.

I hope a middle ground is somehow found, between "why is 300 armor talon one shotting me" and "why is maokai one shotting me" :/

Wau treating high damage problem with even higher damage :D Damage is so over the top that champions are blending together. Class means nothing its just about mobility + burst and if champion dont have these two attributes its troll pick. People are mad that supports gets full damage but it only natural when outside chaining CC no quantity of utility help.

Daddy Ants1 votes

Tanks need defense stat buffs but damage nerfs.

Tanks like Poppy, Sejuani, Rammus, Leona do insane damage for "Tanks"

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