Is nerfing Koggy's W really required?

Rebonack·Dec 2, 2015·2 votes·698 views

Current PBE build is removing the AD scaling from his W and instead setting its base damage at 2% MaxHP. Currently Koggy reaches that value at about 160 total attack damage. So... this is a nerf to his mid to late game power. A pretty hefty one, too.

I can see it potentially working as a systemic change to the ability, though. Too weak early? Adjust the %HP portion. Too strong/weak late? Adjust the %Attack damage portion. Who knows whether or not the numbers are right at the moment, though.

But I was wondering why this particular route was chosen as opposed to something simple like just bumping up Koggy's base HP a little? Incrementally bumping his base HP up by 10 until he finds a good balance point seems like it would be much safer.

13 Comments

qetzelDec 2, 20152 votes

Late game, Koggy is probably good enough. Early game, Koggy sucks. He needs the help early game. Early game changes are typically more impactful that late game changes. This change will affect his mid and late game positively because he will have done better early. He puts out enough damage late game that - even though it is a lot - he will be able to cope with the lost scaling. He doesn't need buffs to his late game, so you can't just tack the 2% on without taking something away.

RebonackDec 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Late game, Koggy is probably good enough. Early game, Koggy sucks. He needs the help early game. Early game changes are typically more impactful that late game changes. This change will affect his mid and late game positively because he will have done better early. He puts out enough damage late game that - even though it is a lot - he will be able to cope with the lost scaling. He doesn't need buffs to his late game, so you can't just tack the 2% on without taking something away.

I get this.

But what I'm asking is 'why not just bump his base HP up by 10 instead of kicking his late game damage in the gut?' If he's too weak early, increasing base HP has the most early game impact and the least late game impact. It's a safe, effective way to balance champions with hyper-scaling.

Salt Miner 49 ErDec 2, 20151 votes

It makes sense as a placebo fix because it essentially nerfs Guinsoo's on him from Riot's viewpoint. The problem with that, however, is that now Kog'Maw has 1:4 ratios for AD/AP on a bot laner. I realize it was pretty much this way before but that doesn't really solve any of his kit's inherent problems. Kog will still buy Guinsoo's and other on-hit items, it's just he's going to have even more diminishing returns for anything that isn't on-hit.

HabitzDec 2, 20151 votes

This might be a buff for me? I can't say that I reach 160 ad, I personally prefer the on-hit/as items. So reaching that point without having the ad to begin with seems like a good thing, right?

BoulderoxDec 2, 20151 votes

2% max hp per shot x 5 hits per sec x 6sec duration

60% max hp AA.... alone. item 3124 really just needs to go away... or just say MELEE ONLY can use it... or half effective on ranged champs

HabitzDec 2, 20151 votes

Plus on hit effects that I build like Wit's end and blotrk. Just attack speed is great on kog. On other champs I agree with you but it's right for kog.

RebonackDec 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

2% max hp per shot x 5 hits per sec x 6sec duration

60% max hp AA.... alone. really just needs to go away... or just say MELEE ONLY can use it... or half effective on ranged champs

Most of the champions that Rageblade is broken as balls on are melee. They stack it twice as quickly.

The only ranged champ that's abusing it is Kayle, but that's just because Kayle gets absurd any time a new item is created that synergizes with her busted kit at all.

RebonackDec 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aries Burst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fYpJBJxK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-02T16:04:14.143+0000)

This might be a buff for me? I can't say that I reach 160 ad, I personally prefer the on-hit/as items. So reaching that point without having the ad to begin with seems like a good thing, right?

It would be a buff to the damage on pure AP/OnHit/IAS builds, but a fairly small one.

It'll be a nerf to the late game damage on basically everything else.

HabitzDec 2, 20151 votes

I'm already doing pretty well with those builds so I'll take it haha

Salt Miner 49 ErDec 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aries Burst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fYpJBJxK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-02T16:04:14.143+0000)

This might be a buff for me? I can't say that I reach 160 ad, I personally prefer the on-hit/as items. So reaching that point without having the ad to begin with seems like a good thing, right?

You'd reach 160 AD with just item 3124 and item 3153 is one of the better items on Kog even after Riot shafted it. Not as a rush because it's a late-game item imho, but it's still one of the better items on him. Currently the core Kog build is something like item 3085 item 3135 item 3091 item 3006 or some such. He's like the original remade Kayle in that Riot expects you to stack on-hit effects because of the -45% damage debuff you have on your W for anything but last-hitting that affects your base damage but not the on hit.

HabitzDec 2, 20151 votes

I haven't tried void staff on him and I choose rageblade here and there. I'll definitely try this build later today. I do blotrk first, it's just my preference. To me void staff is situational. Wit's end should be sufficient at reducing mr if they're not actively building it. Maybe nashor's tooth in the case where they are not? They'd give the same ap with nashors also reducing cdr (when w is down good thing), 50% as and some more bonus on hit damage that'd scale with rageblade.

Salt Miner 49 ErDec 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aries Burst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fYpJBJxK,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2015-12-02T16:30:50.117+0000)

I haven't tried void staff on him and I choose rageblade here and there. I'll definitely try this build later today. I do blotrk first, it's just my preference. To me void staff is situational. Wit's end should be sufficient at reducing mr if they're not actively building it. Maybe nashor's tooth in the case where they are not? They'd give the same ap with nashors also reducing cdr (when w is down good thing), 50% as and some more bonus on hit damage that'd scale with rageblade.

The reason why you go Void Staff on him is that just like with Corki, a vast majority of Kog'Maw's damage is magic. You could go full ham and get nothing but attack speed and item 3020 item 3135 to do considerable damage. That's the thing about Kog'Maw is that Riot keeps saying Corki is the magic damage bot-lane carry but he only has 2.0 AP ratios if you consider the full damage from Valkyrie since he gets 55% of his total AD as magic damage on autos.

Whereas Kog'Maw with the changes to his W no longer being based on AD as well as AP gets 1.7 AP + .75% every 100 AP for every hit of W in magic damage.

HabitzDec 2, 20151 votes

I get that I'm just saying if the enemy team isn't building mr for whatever reason then it seems like nashors + wit's is better than doing void staff.