Of course, when they are actually planed as reworks and not butcherings, ''gtfo of that lane'' nerfworks, or ''we dont care about that champion so we will give the job to idiots'' failworks.
The list of bad reworks far outdoes the good reworks.
And the list of uneeded/badly done reworks far far outdoes the needed but scraped reworks.
Jbels25 votes#mordekaiserneverforget
Voluug1320 votes#TrueKarmaWasDeleted
Jbels11 votes#TrueKarmaWasDeleted
You know I was never actually here to try the old Karma, but her kit looked interesting as fuck, if a little confusing. Well, I mean I was here, I was just new and didn't buy her in time
The5lacker3 votesAs someone who's played Old and New Karma, New Karma is objectively better and people just complain because old Karma was "Unique."
I much the same way that someone with downs syndrome is unique.
Voluug1310 votesOld Karma's numbers were better. Her Mantra system was better. Her niche was better. She had the game's best shield, best team haste and one of the best heals on the entire game thus far. her kit flowed like silk and allowed a Lee Sin levels of flexibility.
Scarma is a one trick pony with underwhelming mantra effects except for MQ and gutted numbers. Her shield is pathetic, her Mantra E is pathetic. She is a literal Q spambot with only one real skill combination W->RQ.
Also, Old Karma had everything against her, while Scarma has fantastic itemization. Old karma barely enjoyed Athenes, and didnt even see Liandri's or new Morellonomicon, Archangel's or Luden's.
Llanite3 votesNEW KARMA LOOKS 1000% BETTER.
Voluug132 votesOh you mean the broken back a$$/b00bs wannabe stripper #14 of League? The one woman in LoL that didnt have a ridiculous Liefield pose or wasnt ''sexy'', and thus had to be corrected? Spare me the bullcrap please.
The only good thing of Scarma is her particles on spell.
Not to mention her new voice sucks - the old one is so much better. I have most of her older skins - but I hate that voice so much I only use the Actual Karma Skin when I play her from time to time.
SeductiveGrandpa3 votesNot to mention her new voice sucks - the old one is so much better. I have most of her older skins - but I hate that voice so much I only use the Actual Karma Skin when I play her from time to time
Bitch please, Sah & La Sah bididibidbid is obviously the better one.
Voluug132 votesThe new voice is forced, strained and too rough.
The older voice is calmer, soft yet powerful.
Clearly the best winner is the old.
EDIT: The Old karma VA actually did research on how to sound calm yet powerful.
Voluug1310 votesHer kit flowed really well in avery good way. Its like Lee Sin's kit without being overloaded. It allowed you to confront several situations with different abilities not always in the same ''rotation''.
Her passive was a less hp more ap passive that could have been gone or reworked. It was pretty much a non issue if it was deleted.
Her main feature was Mantra, her Ult, that unlike the new mantra added effects to her spells that complemented her theme. Her defensive spells gained an offensive edge and offensive spells gained a defensive edge. It also had 2 charges and less cooldown. Her abilities had 6 levels too since mantra was a one point wonder (like actual Jayce/Elise).
Her Q was a conical damage spell similar to Morde's E. Mantraed it became an AoE heal that healed for a base plus a % of missing HP, on top of the damage with was pretty good.
Her W was a tether that had various effects, mainly on the target. If allied it speeded them up, if an enemy it slowed them down. Whatever was the target, allied units that touched the tether itself were speed up by it, and enemy units were dealt damage. Mantraed it doubled it haste/slow numbers. It started underwhelming earlygame, but at level 6 it was ridiculus at 40% cdr: it had a 5s duration on a 6s cd. It had a 85~% uptime for a constant 20% haste for your entire team or a permaslow, 40% if mantra'ed.
Her coolest spell was her E, which was a single target shield with the biggest ratio and base in the game back then. Kinda like Janna's but the difference is that Karma's was much better with AP, so her shield quickly outscaled Janna's. Mantraed it dealt damage around the shielded unit equal to the shield's numbers. it was an awesome ability that allowed her to stop bursty all-in and counter assassin midlaners that werent LB.
Her weaknesses where pretty clear too: Low range, no mobility, mana hungry, no hard CC. Lux was her worst match up back then, a good Lux could keep Karma at bay and poke her out of mana and out of lane. One of her best match ups was against Diana because the moment Diana tried to all-in Karma she was met with a shield and respectable burst plus a slow.
sigh I miss Old Karma.
Chaotic Reks4 votesi would've played the fuck out of that
Voluug135 votesLiterally the only things she needed were Athene and a meta change. She existed together with Athene for around 1-2 months.
She could have basically murdered the entire assassin meta alone in her pre-rework state. Zed? Fizz? Kha? Yasuo? Karma reacts like this :
Voluug133 voteshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsCT_Bfa63s Also this.
Riv x Kobe3 votesHer kit flowed really well in avery good way. Its like Lee Sin's kit without being overloaded. It allowed you to confront several situations with different abilities not always in the same ''rotation''.
No. No it did not. There was a reason that she was rarely played and was a bad pick for almost every team comp. People forget how bad she actually was because "change is bad".
She was not a champion that was "clear" in any way. She heavily relied on everyone else knowing how her kit worked and gave a lot of burden of knowledge to every player in the game, which most players do not want. She was weak in every role, and was too heavily reliant on low HPs to be useful. Its fun how back in the day everyone complained about how bad old Karma's W was, especially mantra W, and complaining about how awkwardly narrow her Q was. But no, no you're right her Q and W were good and well designed.
Old Karma wasn't bad but she wasn't good either.
1 800 MID LANE20 votes#ripcassiopeia
Voluug1310 votesI bought her Mythic skin and played her for 1 year. She was reallly cool as a DoT/poison siege/zoner mage.
After 1 match of Crapsiopeia I got carpal tunnel and much much disappointment.
Captain Aishi2 voteshey i got in an aram with cass recently, and I got into an epic 1v1 fight with the enemy ryze... I lost because he was better than me at mashing his keyboard :(
Riv x Kobe2 votes#TrueKarmaWasDeleted
"True Karma" was a poorly designed champion who was next to impossible to balance and was the poster child of burden of knowledge. If your team didn't know what she could do she caused a lot of problems, and her abilities were so awkward that it was hard for anyone who didn't know her kit to know what she was actually doing.
Voluug133 votesGood to know that Morello's bandwagoners still repeat the same kind of stupidity.
Since apparently you like to be treated as an idiot by Riot, you may have not noticed that ''burden of knowledge'' is an old and ancient thing that they have since long put away when designing.
are way more knowledge dependant that Old Karma was, whose only skill that needed some knowledge was her W. Aside from that every single other skill was pretty clear. A (sometimes exploding) shield and a conical damage spell (that sometimes healed). If you somehow think Mantra was somehow unclear the you are in fallacy because Mantra hasnt stopped being exactly the same kind of spell.
Pika3102 votesYes and the list goes on:
I'd even go so far as to include champs like Yasuo and how he relies on ally knockups.
Malicious Metal11 votesThey should have rework Warwick instead of Mordekaiser T^T Alas, poor Morde, I knew him well.
Slamurai Jack7 votes
All champions that have gotten good reworks just since I've started playing. Especially Sion.
Voluug1311 votesNidalee's didnt solve any of her play pattern problems and only added more power. She had to be overnerfed to reach a point where she wasnt completly centralizating and dominating.
Viktor wasnt really a rework as more of reworking the hexcore, but his kit remained the same.
Veigar's was terrible and needed constant buffs to make it work, and now borders on too powerful apparently. Cass 2.0.
Master Yi's was simply deleting his AP ratios and adding some power back in the form of W's true damage.
The rest I can agree. But we cant simply say that all the reworks are fine when most reworks have very different scale changes - some are subtle and some are extremely radical.
Photos of Ghosts2 votesNida is less likely to oneshot with her spears. Veigar overall makes sense - he just needed the W windup buff earlier, without some of the previous other buffs. Master Yi is now problematic only in b4 and below, I'd say it's fairly better than before.
Voluug135 votesEverytime a new AS jungle item comes out, Master Yi becomes a problem everywhere. It was the problem of Feral Flame. Reworked Master Yi alone made Riot nerf and finally remove FF because it was ridiculous at all levels, even in diamond.
Veigar's doesnt really make sense - it was a bunch of nerfs because of Korean Support Veigar countering mobility disguised as a ''compensation'' buff for the removal of DFG. It was the same that Zilean and Teemo - complete nerfs for a small compensation that basically dumped on the entire champion and its playstyle. Their ratios and their utility have been butchered for some small compensation mechanic.
Nidalee HAD to be overnerfed because her rework was shit and addressed NOTHING about her toxic and one sided playstyle, only added MORE power on top of that. Nidalee's rework is easily one of the most biased reworks ever - she only got more power at the cost on slightly less wide spears.
Dingding1232 votesI no longer play Veigar or Xerath after their respective reworks. They were my mains up until then.
OrcDuckyPaladin6 votesAm I the only one who misses old Fiora? I love the visual update, but I was good at the old her XD
KidSpectre6 votesBuild Tiamat then full damage Press R Win
Mhm. Musta taken a lot of skill.
WarlockLaw4 votesSkill or not, it was pretty fun
Sometimes I just want to play brain dead champs
Remlap12232 votesBut it's not fun to play against.
Captain Aishi2 votesi loved going up against old fiora, a chance to play AP Xin and laugh all game long :(
Death by Glamour5 votesRip karma
CoTheSlow4 votesI like some of the reworks are ok. I feel like most of the venom (tehee) from the Cass rework wouldn't be so bad if riot hadn't been such tools during the making of her. The promises that they would listen ... and then not doing that is what I feel left the bad taste in the players mouth, the actual re-work was more of a catalyst.
If they had been up front and said this is the version of Cass we wanna focus on (considering the spam e was an actual thing) and then worked out a way to get a happy medium between the two I think people would be a little less mad but they chose to focus on one style of the multi style champ while telling the community they were listening. As someone that liked the spam e version of Cass I don't hate the re-work I just hate how they handled it.
YumaS2Astral7 votesI like some of the reworks
If they had been up front and said this is the version of Cass we wanna focus on (considering the spam e was an actual thing) and then worked out a way to get a happy medium between the two I think people would be a little less mad but they chose to focus on one style of the multi style champ while telling the community they were listening. As someone that liked the spam e version of Cass I don't hate the re-work I just hate how they handled it.
Tristana's rework had a downside, however. It made AP builds very weak, if not unviable, as E does physical damage now.
It made AD Tristana a lot better, but killed AP Tristana.
CoTheSlow7 votesTristana's rework had a downside, however. It made AP builds very weak, if not unviable, as E does physical damage now.
It made AD Tristana a lot better, but killed AP Tristana.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I still think it was a good re-work overall. If not a little unfair to those who liked AP Tristana, but in the end I think the changes were for the better overall.
ModCaptainMårvelous3 votesI think the community needs to sit down and decide what a rework is.
Personally, I wouldn't call something like Zilean a rework. In my mind making his Q a lobbed skillshot does NOT drastically alter his character to the point of it being a rework. Likewise, out of all the juggernauts I would only call Mordekaiser a real rework. Most of the other characters had a drastically preserved playstyle and their kits maintained the core, original playstyle with only number tweaks.
Sejuani and Trundle were more VUs than GUs, the core gameplay remaining the same with only the character's...character changing. (More so with Trundle than Sej).
So, with this is mind, here's the short list of what I truly consider reworks/characters completely changing.
Everyone else I would lable as gameplay changes that, while likely significant, don't change the character enough to justify calling it a massive rework. (Sorry Cass fans)
Voluug135 votesZilean's was an straight up nerf because he was countering assassins in lane without even counting in his weaknesses like lack of sustain, range, mobility and terrible mana costs. The best example of the ''gtfo of that lane'' nerfwork.
And Cass was an overbuffed, and then overnerfed, farse made by Stashu, with a power fantasy pulled out of his ass that no one wanted.
Captain Aishi2 votesdarius is a complete shift of his role as a champion and his play pattern he went from being a sustainless dueling splitpusher to being a teamfighting draintank... he's basically a completely different champion since his rework even his itemization completely reversed, you used to go 1 maybe 2 defensive items and the rest damage and now it's 1 damage item, maybe two and the rest focused on defensive stats, triforce went from core on him to absolute garbage and cleaver went from situational purchase to core item :(
ModCaptainMårvelous1 votesI disagree.
Darius is still the lane bully and "Extend the fight if you dare" bruiser he always has been. The difference is the threat used to be "the longer we stay in the fight, the more dangerous it is for us when it comes to his dunk" to "If we stay in this fight Darius is going to become a monster with or without his dunk".
All that changed with his Drain tanking is that Darius can afford to build slightly more damage than he could before, which was Darius relying on mostly base damages and tanking up hardcore. He's still incentivized to build tank more than damage because his kit has a massive, innate damage boost. He still wants to apply bleed now because it'll give him massive benefits. He still wants that 5 stack dunk because it will make him snowball.
I really, really don't see Darius changing from who he was to what he is now.
Captain Aishi2 votesfights as darius pre rework used to last between 2 and 5 seconds depending on how tanky your opponent was, and new darius is much more punished than old one for buying damage, since he loses on the effectiveness of his Q heal and AD from passive, while his gutted attack speed makes attack speed items an awful investment
he basically went from my 2nd most played champion to 'i'm never touching that again' due to how much difference there is in playstyle and role in a team :S
Shonjl1 votesThat is kinda strange since old Darius wasn't hard to fight again, new one beat him in lane isn't much an option anymore. Its don't allow yourself to die or feed him now basically.
Linna Excel2 votesI gotta disagree with you on this one.
Nidalee's role in the game completely changed after her rework. You never see her in lane anymore. She doesn't sit back and chuck spears of doom all day. IMO she's actually more annoying now.
DragonShea3 votesOf course, when they are actually planed as reworks and not butcherings, ''gtfo of that lane'' reworks, or ''we dont care about that champion so we will give the job to idiots'' reworks.
The list of bad reworks far outdoes the good reworks.
And the list of uneeded/badly done reworks far far outdoes the needed but scraped reworks.
Yeah Dayum shame.
Blade of Justic3 votesSion got destroyed and replaced with "CC Tank #12".
They couldn't even keep his role as a melee ADC. Nope! Must be Nautilus now.
freeformline2 votesI'm always a little sad that they changed his title to The Undead Juggernaut while making him less of a juggernaut than old AD Sion.
TerminatusOmega3 votesOLAF, ill never fuking forget
Hugify1 votessays reworks are always good
affirms the existence of bad rework afterwards
Mk.
Voluug135 votesSomeone failed Sarcasm 101 apparently.
Lintu Puck1 votesand boards complaining far out number any other kind of thread these days :/
