Cho'Gath is playable now huh? Let's change that. -The Boards

AmenPerson·Jul 19, 2017·10 votes·1,443 views

Why?

I don't care about what replies I get, I want to know why people want a champion that just became playable after years of being trash, to go back to being trash.

"Remove the health scaling from his ult." "Make it so he loses stacks on death again." "Reduce the amount of minions he can eat." "Give him a cap again."

Like, what?

And it's not even people complaining about his new changes to his E. It's people mostly complaining about changes from like, months and months ago. If Riot never made changes to the interaction between Cho'Gath and Gargoyle then, they're probably not gonna fix that now. Because that has always been around since they added Gargoyle. It was one of the biggest things on the PBE during the mid-season.

Just, accept that Cho'Gath is now good, after years of being one of the worst champions.

58 Comments

Mecha MaIphiteJul 19, 20175 votes

so just because he was bad before, he's allowed to be broken? that's a shit philosophy for balancing

nerfing his ult scaling isn't going to send him back to the dumpster, because he would still keep the buffs he got on basically every other ability

woodvsmurphJul 19, 20173 votes

He is hardly "broken". He is easily abused 1v1 in toplane or jungle. His kit is unreliable until the slow on his e becomes live and makes him more viable. He doesn't have the tank scaling of a malphite or maokai, nor the continuous dps and healing of a renekton or darius or illaoi. His ult is hardly enough to 1-shot anyone at any point in the game unless you get chunked super low or fed the crap out of him - even with gargoyle's. Any decent toplaner should be able to counter-pick and bully him or become tankier than him and use their cc to set up answering kills onto carries of the enemy team while still being tankier than cho until VERY VERY late into the game with cho having MANY stacks.

LadyRenlyJul 19, 20174 votes

massive aoe silence, absurd HP and 1k true damage nuke

its naturally a recipe for frustration, whether or not hes balanced

AhristocatsJul 19, 20172 votes

There is a difference between playable, and completly broken with 58% win rate (lolalyctic) which means completly unfair to play against

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20172 votes

ho'Gath has a win rate 53.50% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Cho'Gath's are earning a win rate of 0.00% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond V.

LoLalytics ranks Cho'Gath at 72 amongst all champions earning a tier grade of Gold.

This ranking takes into account the win rate of Platinum+ players, the pick/ban influence of Cho'Gath, the win rate and average rank of the best Cho'Gath players.

where are you getting the 58%?

SalronJul 19, 20172 votes

Jungle Cho'gath has a 56% or something last i checked

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20172 votes

57.22% with a 2.5% pick rate...

so its hardly ever picked and never banned... and its most likely old school cho jungle players playing him

and might have to do with the buffs to cinderhaulk as well

http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Chogath/

he is another tanky champ that if he gets near u . you are dead

nothing special

SalronJul 19, 20172 votes

Nothing special Yup that's why its getting nerfed next patch

Makes sense

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

oh no... they nerf all kinds of shit for all kinds of reason...

and that 57.22% win rate is jungle ... over all his win rate isnt that high

52.11% win rate top, and 48.46% win rate mid

WoonStruckJul 19, 20171 votes

Jungle cho is what's busted.

You get cinderhulk which adds another 20% HP. On top of that you can take bond of stone and %HP runes.

You just zoom your way to the ADC and hit stoneplate+R to 1 shot.

That's not including the fact that jungle cho used to have one of the fastest clears in the game, and now its even better because you don't need attack speed.

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

well with the changes to E on this patch should slow his clear speed ...

E only applies spikes for 3 basic attacks then goes on cd

WoonStruckJul 19, 20171 votes

Spikes do more damage.

He does a lot more burst going tank now, just about as much DPS, and doesn't need attack speed.

He's infinitely better now.

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

what makes his E stronger is the ratio from feast stacks and how it does damage based on the targets HP

but in jungle and in lane to cs should be harder cuz its not constant spikes for every auto like it use to be...

harder to cs with... more damage to to enemy

WoonStruckJul 19, 20171 votes

Generally you didn't want E on anyway so you didn't push too hard in lane.

In jungle, clearspeed's just as good but scales better.

AhristocatsJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

57.22% with a 2.5% pick rate...

so its hardly ever picked

and? ADC morde had 56% win rate and 2% pick rate in december 2015, then XP passive got nerfed

anything above 55% win rate is busted beyond believes

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

and lee sin has a 47% win rate people cry he is broken

orianna 50.05% win rate she is broken

sooo

the issue with mord bot lane is that he out leveled people ... with the bonus exp he got... so he flat out scaled via getting more levels faster...

but he wasnt broken... people just didnt know how to beat him...

AhristocatsJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

and lee sin has a 47% win rate people cry he is broken

just because your win rate is below 55% doesn't mean you're not broken, but when it's above 55% then WITHOUT A DOUBT you're broken, that's how stats work

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

lol ok that is what is so funny ...

if you have a bad win rate and people dont like the champ = broken

if you have a strong win rate =broken

there hasnt really been many broken champs... people use that term too loosely

kassidan in seasons 3/4 WAS BROKEN

WoonStruckJul 19, 20171 votes

Winrate without other supporting factors is a horrible argument to use.

As an example, the original AP Gragas was 100% pick/ban and busted beyond belief. 32% winrate because everybody tried playing it since it was broken and most had no idea how.

nm1010Jul 19, 20171 votes

It isn't about liking the champion, it is about their playstyle and contribution to the game. Lee Sin having a snare attached to his R is toxic since he is still allowed to flash aftering casting it while denying your flash. Orianna is very good at every stage of the game while being a bully and getting free tankiness to survive when other champions would not.

They don't necessarily need straight nerfs, but changes are definitely in order.

there hasnt really been many broken champs... people use that term too loosely

People who argue semantics usually don't have a strong position to defend.

kassidan in seasons 3/4 WAS BROKEN

Yup

AmenPersonJul 19, 20171 votes

Okay, real quick, actually curious, what about Sej? She's got a 7% playrate, and is .15 off from a 55% winrate.

AhristocatsJul 19, 20171 votes

no she doesn't

http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Sejuani/

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

ur right its 1.7% from 55% win rate

53.3% win rate so she is fine

AhristocatsJul 19, 20171 votes

indeed

AmenPersonJul 19, 20171 votes

Check op.gg.

woodvsmurphJul 19, 20171 votes

Aatrox Jax Khazix Kindred LeeSin MasterYi Nocturne Olaf Trundle Tryndamere Warwick XinZhao can invade jg early and kill him multiple times - putting him far behind. Half of them can build item 1419 and punish him so hard for stacking hp and have more than enough hp of their own that his ult means nothing even as they go 2 straight damage items with no tank stats. Cho is hardly "broken". People just aren't used to playing against him because he has been so utterly underpowered for a long time. Makes about as much sense as saying sivir is broken because she's getting a buff to her q or that janna is broken cuz of her late game shielding with support items right now. Sure she might be strong late game, but did you punish her weaknesses when you had the chance? Like skirmishing in laning phase? Picking a hard-engage or high burst damage support and killing them repeatedly, getting first tower, denying them cs, grabbing all the dragons early? Cho definitely has plenty of weaknesses to be punished easily, but if you don't punish him for them, then yeah it's no different from letting a fed darius or master yi run around your team and kill everyone.

ReySolomonJul 19, 20172 votes

Well said! I'm glad there are people like you around the boards.

AmenPersonJul 19, 20171 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

if there is two things the community hates ... are tanks... and adcs

i dont even know if cho is really that good... he gets tanky as shit late game.... but that if you get to late game...

they want no tank to do a bit of damage... then cry that tanks are shit in game

they want adcs to have no ability to use any armor pen/ lethality or range cuz they "abuse " items... cuz all tbe bruiser/assassins etc have a harder time 1 shot the adc cuz they have some defensive/survive ability.

AmenPersonJul 19, 20172 votes

I'm gonna say he's viable while he himself leans heavily on the really good scale.

At the end of the day though, he is still Cho'Gath, and Cho'Gath still has his problems. He's still got his major counters, and his major flaws, and all this stuff.

LustdemonJul 19, 20171 votes

You are misinformed about cho gath and you don't know how to use him. Only champ in game that can hit 6k health.That is a tank. Also they will do anything to push the sell of new champs and making cho gath so he now has a cooldown on his e and must be casted everytime you use it is just a crap move. Again cattering to crybaby ranked players wont help this game.This tactic is old.Cho may have issues on his ap/health scaling but my issue at the moment is only with the change of his E.

AmenPersonJul 19, 20171 votes

I mean, I'm a Cho'Gath main, I'm pretty sure I'm well informed about him.

And having an issue with his E is perfectly fine. They're nerfing that which I'm happy to see, he is very strong right now. My point is that the 'vocal' part of the boards complain about his ult combo that has been around for a while.

Asayake 5150glowJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I mean, I'm a Cho'Gath main, I'm pretty sure I'm well informed about him.

And having an issue with his E is perfectly fine. They're nerfing that which I'm happy to see, he is very strong right now. My point is that the 'vocal' part of the boards complain about his ult combo that has been around for a while.

I think people don't like that his E is so guaranteed and gives so much reliable damage. Personally I remember playing against a Cho as Riven (when I was shit at her), I did well in lane due to his weak laning, but he scale sooo well. I did a (probably shit) fast combo on him, and he would auto me a few times for 200 damage, then ult, and bam I'm dead due to 100% targeted damage. Sure there are other champions like that, but they're juggernauts, and last I checked, Cho wasn't a juggernaut. So people don't expect that sort of damage.

And that was before Stoneplate was a thing.

AmetDeCryptJul 19, 20171 votes

basically yeah fuck him I won't pretend I don't have a chip on my shoulder on riots love of giving every single tank a true damage nuke ult like candy but really all that needs to be done is change his ult from true damage to magic so now stoneplate's damage reduction works on him and he's not walking around with a 4k ult everywhere and tanks can actually counter him.

AmenPersonJul 19, 20171 votes

I mean or they could make it so that Gargoyle reduced true damage. Which would make ulting, then pressing Gargoyle the better option then just pressing Gargoyle and ult.

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

but it only has a 10% bonus hp ratio ...

so maybe its more the hp stacking in general on the feast ...

item 3193 just gives him more hp... so its any HP he gets that increases the damage on his ult

AmenPersonJul 19, 20171 votes

Well, I used this as a base to determine whether or not the damage reduction should work on True damage.

A Cho'Gath with 4000 health will have an ult that deals 1050.

Double that health from Gargoyle, then he has 8000, and the damage on his ult increases to 1450.

If you add the 60% damage reduction from Gargoyle to that though, it's lowered to 870.

Much less tasty. It removes his one shot potential that people complain about, but keeps his Locket combo (which people complain about).

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

right... but ... as long as he gets bonus hp stacks from feast that dont go away... and keeps stacking plus the passive bonus hp on cinderhulk (20% bonus hp)

so even with out gargoyle ... he is getting 10% bonus true damage for having HP regardless where it comes from

AmenPersonJul 19, 20171 votes

Well, yeah. But you will always get more health, aka more damage, from Gargoyle's.

... I'm actually pretty lost on this conversation?

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

he gets rewarded with more damage for having more hp regardless of where the bonus hp comes from... via stacks, items. etc

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

question we need an answer too is whether or not true damage is reduced from activating item 3193

AmenPersonJul 19, 20171 votes

The way it currently is, no, it isn't. It's just free damage right now for Cho'Gath. Damage reduction does not affect true damage in anyway. It's my opinion why Darius and Rek'Sai are so good against Phantom Dancer.

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

then that might wanna be looked into by riot

idk

AmetDeCryptJul 19, 20171 votes

problem is riot's whole stance on "true" damage it can't be reduced at all. I mean if they let one thing through next they know there's items reducing this "true" damage and it just becomes another form of damage.

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

ok i get that but when an item when active is suppose to reduce your damage dealt as you gain this massive HP pool plus u are gonna only really use it when near 3 or more so you have the extra +40 armor/mr then that item should still reduce any damage you do ...

AmetDeCryptJul 19, 20171 votes

so... convert it to mr? maybe up the scalings to compensate

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

the issue comes back to the scaling on his feast where the more bonus hp he has the more true damage it does... it has a 10% bonus health scaling so when he activates the item and gets the huge HP pool that directly gives him more true damage via the scaling on his R with bonus hp scaling

then you add in the HP stacking from the stacks of feast... plus the passive bonus hp of cinderhulk (+20% bonus hp) it all applies to the scaling

and its not out the possibility for cho with stacks + cinderhulk bonus hp passive + gargoyle plate bonus HP active to get over 6000 hp so thats 600 more true damage tacked on to his based true damage of his R and it still has a 40% ap ratio TOO so at max rank on R base damage is 675 true damage +40% AP +10% bonus hp lets say he dont get ap just 675+600 bonus hp is 1275 true damage on his R to targets just for an example

AmetDeCryptJul 19, 20171 votes

so convert it to magic damage what did I just say boy

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20171 votes

1ST OFF

IM NO BOY...

2ND OFF

ITS TRUE DAMAGE ... SO YOU WANT HIS WHOLE R CHANGED TO MAGIC DAMAGE?

AND 3RDLY

IT ISSUE IS WHEN YOU ACTIVATE item 3193 AND GET THE 100% BONUS HP FOR BEING AROUND 3 ENEMIES OR MORE ITS SUPPOSE TO REDUCE THE DAMAGE YOU DO... BUT THEY DONT APPLY THIS EFFECT TO TRUE DAMAGE

IN THIS CASE IT SHOULD.... THAT WAY ITS NOT A BUSTED ITEM ON A CHAMP WHO WILL END UP WITH +100% BONUS HP +80 ARMOR AND MR WHILE HE DOES 1400+ TRUE DAMAGE TO A TARGET

AmetDeCryptJul 20, 20171 votes

I still know true damage reduction is never going to be a thing. that's why you convert it to magic damage, so it's naturally reduced by stoneplate.