Zoe nerfs have landed on PBE

AmenPerson·Feb 9, 2018·96 votes·5,078 views

And thus the holy lord came down onto our bare land, and said here my children, enjoy these nerfs.

Zoe [Context] Paddle Star (Q) Paddle Star no longer applies More Sparkles' damage to enemies past the first hit.

Spell Thief (W) Minions can no longer drop Teleport. Sleepy Trouble Bubble (E) [Removed Effect] No longer notes "When an enemy champion falls asleep, Sleepy Trouble Bubble's cooldown is reduced by 10/15/20/25/30%." "Removing Drowsy now prevents the affected target from asleep." "This includes effects such as Cleanse, Mikeal's Crucible, or Quicksilver Sash, as well as champion CC removals such as Alistar ult.

167 Comments

Harden StepbackFeb 9, 201827 votes

Thank god for that TP nerf.

Dope SoloFeb 9, 201816 votes

Ok, a small nerf to a big damage problem. Lets hope this brings chunkbitch down to earth a bit.

RainbowIceeFeb 9, 201819 votes

the nerf on her E is pretty steep which is warranted because that to me is the biggest BS. That she's just spamming that thing and if you just so happen to get hit someone it's going to get a CD reduction. Like wts? thank god that's gone. Also removing drowsy removes the sleep effect this is great. Why did it take soo long though ?

Votable JesterFeb 9, 20188 votes

I think the original intention with the E cd thing was that it has a longer cooldown if you miss it, but because it can't be coded that way, they phrased it as a shorter cooldown when it does hit a champion, which sounds op.

I think it would have been better to just increase the cooldown in general but keep that % reduction on hit.

The drowsy change is great though, should have been that way from the start.

AmenPersonFeb 9, 20183 votes

Personally, I wouldn't mind if they changed it so that the % refund was only given if it hit someone directly, and not if they accidentally walked into it. As well as make the sleep pool smaller, just so that it doesn't block off entire jungle paths.

And drowzy just needs to begone by my cleanse. Just like a Malz suppression. :^)

RainbowIceeFeb 9, 20182 votes

but even if it was like that when she did hit someone the CD was pretty damn short so i don't think that was the case

PoskeFeb 9, 20182 votes

Laughs in Thresh Q

Guess who designed thresh? CertainlyT Guess who designed zoe? CertainlyT

Nothing to do with coding its just "innovative" CertainlyT repeating himself

Malix FarwinFeb 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Laughs in Thresh Q

Guess who designed thresh? CertainlyT Guess who designed zoe? CertainlyT

Nothing to do with coding its just "innovative" CertainlyT repeating himself

He also designed Zyra and when was the last time you seen Zyra banned?

As far as thresh goes he is picked a lot because he was designed extremely well and he is never banned because people do not consider him overpowered. CertainlyT gets a lot of flack when there are champions that exist right now he had no parts of that people complain about just as much. People are just on the bandwagon.

Like its so silly i mean for example when Kalista is balanced theres not a peep but the minute she is OP ppl say "its bcz of CertainlyT", same with Yasuo but when literally any other champ not designed by him is OP ppl do not blame the developer of said champ.

Remember Ekko release? What about Tank Ekko? how many ppl blamed the Developer?

What about Fizz? did you know the same developer who did Fizz also did Lulu and when both those champions were problems no one said "well because those devs make problem champions".

vgamedudeFeb 9, 20187 votes

An overnerf to appease whiners who had no facts to back up anything when she wasn't even broken. Great.

Audacity To TìltFeb 9, 201823 votes

{quoted}

An overnerf to appease whiners who had no facts to back up anything when she wasn't even broken. Great.

Wasn't broken? Yeah, she was just high pick/ban in both pro and casual play for fun, right?

vgamedudeFeb 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Audacity To Tìlt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3yE3eB1c,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-02-09T06:34:08.313+0000)

Wasn't broken? Yeah, she was just high pick/ban in both pro and casual play for fun, right?

Ya bro that 50 percent winrate or below, so busted. Unreal.

EasiestBestGodFeb 9, 201812 votes

She supposed to be "mechanically demanding champion" yet everyone can play her. Azir's win rate is below %45 while Champion is actually srong as hell. That's what should happen with Zoe too. Stop qq'ing. This nerfs are more than deserved. Just because you can abuse her yo don't need to cry.

vgamedudeFeb 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

She supposed to be "mechanically demanding champion" yet everyone can play her. Azir's win rate is below %45 while Champion is actually srong as hell. That's what should happen with Zoe too. Stop qq'ing. This nerfs are more than deserved. Just because you can abuse her yo don't need to cry.

You literally have zero evidence or facts backing up why she's apparently busted. People like you with nothing but baseless qq are why she got nerfed too.

Again. What about gp? What about riven?

Audacity To TìltFeb 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You literally have zero evidence or facts backing up why she's apparently busted. People like you with nothing but baseless qq are why she got nerfed too.

Again. What about gp? What about riven?

You literally don't even know who you're replying to now. Gp and riven aren't overpowered at this point in time.

vgamedudeFeb 9, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Audacity To Tìlt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3yE3eB1c,comment-id=000600000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-09T09:08:42.938+0000)

You literally don't even know who you're replying to now. Gp and riven aren't overpowered at this point in time.

Im honestly astonished you all still don't get it.

Statistically speaking riven and gp are more broken than zoe. That's my entire point. People say she's high skill cap and difficult so she shouldn't have a high winrate, well gp and riven both are high skillcap, most would say higher, and they have HIGHER winrates than zoe and are statistically superior.

AmenPersonFeb 9, 20187 votes

Honestly I say it's hard to calculate how strong she could be, considering she has a ~70% ban rate.

Which means that ~30% of games she has a chance to be picked, and even then she's not a 100% pick for that ~30%, as she's actually got a ~7% pick rate.

And then even with that ~7%, she's only winning in 50% of those games.

Since she's banned so much, not a lot of people are able to get to her, so we cannot see the actual value of her win rate. It would be a lot easier to figure out how strong she was, if say she had a ban rate of ~45% and a play rate of ~15%.

Pika FoxFeb 9, 20184 votes

Most new champs are pick/ban on release in pro play, regardless of their strength, unless theyre obviously bad. Theres less information about them so less people know how to properly play or build a teamcomp against them. Thats a major benefit.

Audacity To TìltFeb 9, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3yE3eB1c,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2018-02-09T07:10:45.969+0000)

Most new champs are pick/ban on release in pro play, regardless of their strength, unless theyre obviously bad. Theres less information about them so less people know how to properly play or build a teamcomp against them. Thats a major benefit.

I agree. The thing is that she's been out for a reasonable amount of time now. With the nerfs from pbe not out yet, she has few counters in and out of lane. Her e range, cooldown, and general lack of counterplay (when combined with the aoe, low cooldown, heavy burst of her q) is similar in power to the old taric-urgot point and click bot lane- in one champion. Obviously she requires some level of competence with skillshots, though again the lack of counterplay is the key factor.

Pika FoxFeb 9, 20183 votes

She has quite a bit of counterplay. Her E is the single weakest hard CC in the game, granting 2.3 seconds of response time before the CC and damage boost apply, giving you time to react as well as your team. She also lacks mobility, making her fairly weak to ganks, and her W requires her to either last hit properly or force the enemy to use their summoners defensively (as if theyre used offensively its unlikely shes in a position to grab them)

The changes on the PBE largely put her more in line to be consistent with how the game works with other CCs and stress her weakness further (Shes at her weakest with E on CD)

I think she'll likely end up getting some kinda buff down the line when people have had more time against her. Assassins generally get complained about for a long while.

Audacity To TìltFeb 9, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3yE3eB1c,comment-id=00060000000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-09T07:26:15.584+0000)

She has quite a bit of counterplay. Her E is the single weakest hard CC in the game, granting 2.3 seconds of response time before the CC and damage boost apply, giving you time to react as well as your team. She also lacks mobility, making her fairly weak to ganks, and her W requires her to either last hit properly or force the enemy to use their summoners defensively (as if theyre used offensively its unlikely shes in a position to grab them)

The changes on the PBE largely put her more in line to be consistent with how the game works with other CCs and stress her weakness further (Shes at her weakest with E on CD)

I think she'll likely end up getting some kinda buff down the line when people have had more time against her. Assassins generally get complained about for a long while.

You seem to be referencing low skill play rather than high mmr-pro play. I assure you that last hitting isn't an issue in higher tiers of play. Neither is having someone come into your lane and force your enemy's summoners. While we're at it- her waveclear in lane and poke that giver her lane dominance by default, combined with proper positioning and vision control also rule out the possibility of dying magically to a gank.

On the possibility her e has clunterplay: No. The sheer distance posibilities on an uncleansable disable is not interactive. You say the enemy has time to react to the sleep once they're hit? So you want them to flash away, use any mobility spell, and use a nonexistent item immunity so they can't be hit by zoe's r-q-q-flash combo? If not, please explain the counterplay to be found.

Pika FoxFeb 9, 20183 votes

Sure, pro players can last hit better, but you can still punish them when they do, especially since its telegraphed which minion she specifically needs.

Her waveclear is nearly non-existent. Her Q AoE is basically the width of a minion around the target, and requires her only ability that does real damage on its own.

The range only exists on E through walls, and it is still cleansable, just not on the slow before it procs.

And multiple champs have ways to get away or reposition to a better spot; Jarvan has EQ, Rakan has EW, Kass has R, everyone has flash.

But the biggest thing is theres 2.3 seconds for your team to react. You know exactly who Zoe wants to target, and approx where she is, so your team can bodyblock the Q or otherwise interfere with shields or other protections. Zoe is really bad at teamfighting, and her E really emphasizes it with the delay and champion damage removing sleep.

Audacity To TìltFeb 9, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3yE3eB1c,comment-id=0006000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-09T07:49:11.275+0000)

Sure, pro players can last hit better, but you can still punish them when they do, especially since its telegraphed which minion she specifically needs.

Her waveclear is nearly non-existent. Her Q AoE is basically the width of a minion around the target, and requires her only ability that does real damage on its own.

The range only exists on E through walls, and it is still cleansable, just not on the slow before it procs.

And multiple champs have ways to get away or reposition to a better spot; Jarvan has EQ, Rakan has EW, Kass has R, everyone has flash.

But the biggest thing is theres 2.3 seconds for your team to react. You know exactly who Zoe wants to target, and approx where she is, so your team can bodyblock the Q or otherwise interfere with shields or other protections. Zoe is really bad at teamfighting, and her E really emphasizes it with the delay and champion damage removing sleep.

This is some next level shitposting. You're now arguing that zoe is undertuned

AmazoXFeb 9, 201815 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3yE3eB1c,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2018-02-09T07:10:45.969+0000)

Most new champs are pick/ban on release in pro play, regardless of their strength, unless theyre obviously bad. Theres less information about them so less people know how to properly play or build a teamcomp against them. Thats a major benefit.

Kled Kayn Evelynn XinZhao Warwick Taric Taliyah AurelionSol weren't pick/ban though.

SalronFeb 9, 201812 votes

{quoted}

wasn't pick/ban though.

https://i.imgur.com/fyV1zPn.png[/img]

AmazoXFeb 9, 201811 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3yE3eB1c,comment-id=00060000000100010000,timestamp=2018-02-09T09:23:04.941+0000)

https://i.imgur.com/fyV1zPn.png[/img]

At least on release she wasn't. [sg-lulu]

Sp33d Zer0Feb 9, 20182 votes

I could be mistaken but didn't it take a good while for Taliyah to get to a spot where she saw a lot of pro play?

karolmoFeb 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

weren't pick/ban though.

On-release Xin was so broken they had to hotfix it lmao

PoskeFeb 9, 20181 votes

Taliyah is number 1 champion to reach challenger via Mid last year. Aurelion was second for a long time (Now he is 3rd best, tali being 1st) This are Lolalytics statistics

I sure as hell banned taliyah many times Banned Sol few times because he is dumb and counters few of my mains Taric didnt see much banns you are correct here Eve saw banns Xin saw banns Kayn saw banns

Now Kled.. received so few I think he gets a pass

AmazoXFeb 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Taliyah is number 1 champion to reach challenger via Mid last year. Aurelion was second for a long time (Now he is 3rd best, tali being 1st) This are Lolalytics statistics

I sure as hell banned taliyah many times Banned Sol few times because he is dumb and counters few of my mains Taric didnt see much banns you are correct here Eve saw banns Xin saw banns Kayn saw banns

Now Kled.. received so few I think he gets a pass

Seeing bans = / = pick/ban state currently in EU LCS like Azir & Zoe have right now.

Pika FoxFeb 9, 20182 votes

While i agree people are QQing instead of learning to play against her and shes clearly not overpowered, most of these changes bring her in line more consistently to other things, such as CC effects and removal of them.

Chances are she will end up being buffed later when people learn to play instead of blindly QQing, but these at least affect her frustrating bits without really hitting her strengths, so when shes later eventually buffed people arent QQing constantly.

ShaolinToiletFeb 9, 20182 votes

She might get buffed but she is pretty much the new yasuo of the boards except when you play vs her correctly she isn't even frustrating

Pika FoxFeb 9, 20182 votes

Pretty much. All the valid complaints like the teleport and CC being somewhat inconsistent removal wise depending on how you look at it get drowned out in "Zomg, i got hit by E and she pressed R but Q one shot me 1 ability omg rito fix" bs. Im pretty sure if annie pressed 3 buttons youd die too.

"It hit me off screen through fow" Abilities show through fow.

AminumbraFeb 9, 20184 votes

I'm pretty sure if you're in range of being hit by Annie's spell while her stun is up, you deserve to die. Moreover, 3 buttons Annie means she has to use R. Which is not a 10 sec CD.

Not so sure when it comes to an AoE-4 sec-CC ( 2 of them being hard CC ) coming from fog of war at 2000 range, spammable every 10 sec or even less.

MuffledGarbageFeb 9, 20184 votes

So Pro players are QQing instead of learning to play against her?

Pro players called Zoe overpowered

Professional.

Players.

People did the math and Zoe does the average damage of a burst mage full rotation

Zoe doesn't do that damage every 60-90 seconds, she does it every 7

That's why Zoe is overpowered

likerioFeb 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So Pro players are QQing instead of learning to play against her?

Pro players called Zoe overpowered

Professional.

Players.

People did the math and Zoe does the average damage of a burst mage full rotation

Zoe doesn't do that damage every 60-90 seconds, she does it every 7

That's why Zoe is overpowered

umm....the burst mages also do it in 7 sec lol. pro players complaints about zoe have nothing to do with her damage. and most arent even complaining at all.

MuffledGarbageFeb 9, 20183 votes

You read that wrong.

Normal burst mages don't have their entire rotation of abilities up every 7 seconds.

Zoe has her entire rotation of abilities up every 7 seconds

Zoe's damaging moves do the same damage as other burst mages

Other burst mages have to wait 60-90 seconds in order to do the same amount of damage that Zoe does every 7 seconds

SeductiveCeleryFeb 9, 20182 votes

wait so is q only the dmg of 1 hit now? if so, im not going to play her

JbelsFeb 9, 201844 votes

{quoted}

wait so is q only the dmg of 1 hit now? if so, im not going to play her

No, her Q currently procs her passive's damage on everything hit in the AOE. This change will make it so only the primary target that the Q detonates on will take the extra More Sparkles damage. Everyone else takes the normal AOE damage of the spell

AzadetheFeb 9, 20182 votes

Which means 90% of champs will win the exchange merely by getting close to her and knowing that she's not nearly as dangerous.

Dope SoloFeb 9, 201813 votes

Are you kidding? Her Q is still on a low cooldown.

AzadetheFeb 9, 20188 votes

Her Q was increased .25 sec, and now it can only proc her passive once. That's what kills people, not the actual Q damage. Lich + Passive X2 = tons of damage.

Dope SoloFeb 9, 20188 votes

Oh, well that sounds like a good thing. Rapid fire nukes just aren't healthy.

xelakerFeb 9, 20182 votes

no the sleep damage is what does it

Dope SoloFeb 9, 20188 votes

I think the sleep damage is definitely part of the problem, but Q by itself easily does too much damage as it is now. That's pre-6, pre-lich, w/e.

JbelsFeb 9, 201817 votes

{quoted}

Which means 90% of champs will win the exchange merely by getting close to her and knowing that she's not nearly as dangerous.

What? If you're describing a straight up 1v1, her damage hasn't changed. She will have less wave clear and do less damage to clumped targets

LegitBusinessmanFeb 9, 201850 votes

{quoted}

No, her Q currently procs her passive's damage on everything hit in the AOE. This change will make it so only the primary target that the Q detonates on will take the extra More Sparkles damage. Everyone else takes the normal AOE damage of the spell

Why does it even proc her passive in the first place... that's just... so effing stupid.

Rathar DashingFeb 9, 201811 votes

It's so her damage can actually increase after she hits level 9, seeing as it's her only damaging spell.

SqueyFeb 9, 201821 votes

thing called ability power you should know about.

ArakadiaFeb 9, 20187 votes

Yeah but most other burst mages have multiple abilities to have base damages increase on. This effectively gives her another spell or increase her base damage.

ESeTyRCFeb 9, 20188 votes

Except it's not. Zoe's W E and the passive all deal sizeable amounts of damage.

Q doing so much damage on its own with such low cooldown and mana costs is still absurd.

Having to land only one high flight speed, 0 indication skill shot that can be suddenly extended in range by R to instantaneously deal multiple spells' worth of damage isn't even something that should exist.

What if Azir's W+Q did 5 or more hits' worth of damage in trade for soldiers no longer being able to auto? Well now you no longer need to stick around autoing, risking getting hit, and just continuously throw soldiers out for the sweet one-hit damage!

Lumping a ton of damage onto one spell is a bad idea, period. Broken is broken.