Lichbane is a superior DPS item to Nashor's

Rebonack·Jun 24, 2015·3 votes·1,054 views

And this should not be.

We'll assume here 2.0 attack speed and equal AP (which is pretty much impossible, but we'll roll with it.)

Lichbane would be proc'd five times over the course of six seconds. That's about 375 base damage and a 2.75 AP ratio when Masteries are taken into account.

Nashor's will boop the target 12 times over those six seconds. That's 180 base damage and a 2.4 AP ratio, leaving Lichbane the winner by no small margin. That's not even taking into account the fact that Lichbane procs against Towers and Nashor's doesn't.

Could a Rioter explain to me why the addition burst AP item nets a champion more sustained damage than the sustained damage AP item?

23 Comments

AnonagonJun 24, 20156 votes

nice job assuming someone can cast 5 spells and autoattack 5 times in six seconds

between cast times and the shit attack speed most mages have, thats impossible. Even if they had enough attack speed, they wouldn't have enough fucking spells, unless they are someone with multicast spells like akali or irelia

RebonackJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

nice job assuming someone can cast 5 spells and autoattack 5 times in six seconds

between cast times and the shit attack speed most mages have, thats impossible. Even if they had enough attack speed, they wouldn't have enough fucking spells, unless they are someone with multicast spells like akali or irelia

We're assuming equal AP and 2.0 attack speed, remember?

Try to stay on the same page as the rest of the class.

LaceUp23Jun 24, 20154 votes

That is a really stupid assumption to make. Until you place real gameplay scenarios, you won't be taken seriously.

RebonackJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That is a really stupid assumption to make. Until you place real gameplay scenarios, you won't be taken seriously.

Good grief.

The point was to set forward an impossible scenario in which the constraints are already massively tilted in Nashor's favor for the purpose of showing that even under ideal situations Lichbane is still the superior source of sustained damage (the ability to damage towers notwithstanding).

But sure, why not?

item 3115 item 3085 item 3135 item 3089 item 3020 item 3157

item 3100 item 3165 item 3135 item 3089 item 3020 item 3157

Set 1 has over a 100 less AP than Set 2. It also has less attack speed than what's suggested in the opening post, barring major IAS sources for the host-champion's kit. The Lichbane user could whiff one of their procs and still deal more damage.

AnonagonJun 24, 20151 votes

Nashor's will always be a superior DPS item for AP/On-hit champions than Lich Bane, because only Akali and Eve can even remotely keep up with spellcasts for Lich Bane to do the DPS you suggest it does, and since Akali is burst oriented, Eve is literally the only AP champion where Lich Bane provides more consistent DPS than Nashor's.

I love WafflesJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We're assuming equal AP and 2.0 attack speed, remember?

Try to stay on the same page as the rest of the class.

Not sure if you're a troll, or a retard, or a combination of them both.

Why would you assume that they would have equal attack speed? 1500 gold worth of stats is attributed to Nashors Tooth's attack speed. That's half the cost of the item.

AnonagonJun 24, 20152 votes

You can't assume that though

If they don't have Nashors (besides Azir here, but he can't use lich bane anyway) no mage is going to get anywhere near 2.0 attack speed

You are completely ignoring the fact that no champion in the game can logically match your theorectical 5-procs-in-6-seconds while retaining the same amount of AP as a fullAP+Nashors build. Cast times fucking exist buddy.

Skia AsteriJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

nice job assuming someone can cast 5 spells and autoattack 5 times in six seconds

between cast times and the shit attack speed most mages have, thats impossible. Even if they had enough attack speed, they wouldn't have enough fucking spells, unless they are someone with multicast spells like akali or irelia

Evelynn

Q has a 1.5 second cool down with no cast time, has 1.0075 AS at level 18.

AnonagonJun 24, 20151 votes

good point, but I'll consider her the exception here, not the rule, especially since fullAP builds aren't super common on her, and now she likely won't touch Lich Bane because of the atrocity that is Runeglaive.

Only Play DariusJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

nice job assuming someone can cast 5 spells and autoattack 5 times in six seconds

Skarner Hecarim Karthus Cassiopeia Akali Yasuo Riven Ryze

AnonagonJun 24, 20151 votes

Skarner can, but implying he's going to get Lich Bane is an entire other deal Hec: see Skarner Yasuo: see Skarner Riven: fucking bullshit, also see Skarner Karthus can't do it with his shit animations, especially since he needs to reposition between Qs. Also see Skarner Cassi: see Karthus Ryze: see Karthus

Akali: the only valid one here, but it doesn't change the fact that Lich Bane will only proc thrice during that rotation (5 is impossible because of Lich Bane's own cooldown, 4 requires that you land your AA in the same frame that you cast your spell, meaning only Eve can do it)

I love WafflesJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Skarner can, but implying he's going to get Lich Bane is an entire other deal Hec: see Skarner Yasuo: see Skarner Riven: fucking bullshit, also see Skarner Karthus can't do it with his shit animations, especially since he needs to reposition between Qs. Also see Skarner Cassi: see Karthus Ryze: see Karthus

Akali: the only valid one here, but it doesn't change the fact that Lich Bane will only proc thrice during that rotation (5 is impossible because of Lich Bane's own cooldown, 4 requires that you land your AA in the same frame that you cast your spell, meaning only Eve can do it)

Viktor also uses Lichbane. With 40% CDR his Q is on a 2 second cooldown

AnonagonJun 24, 20151 votes

Viktor isn't in the lineup, thats why I didn't mention him

and once again, only three procs per 6 seconds is possible on any champion besides an Eve that is played by a robot with perfect timing

3 procs is 150% AP, which is beaten by 10 AAs from Nashors. Given 2.0 attack speed, you can do that amount of AAs in 5 seconds. Additionally, Lich Bane is completely dependent on spellcasts, so once you've blown your cooldowns (not everyone is 2 second cooldown Viktor Q) you get NO dps from Lich Bane, and if you have no mana, same thing.

Sire HippingtonJun 25, 20151 votes

he got a point though, unless you make really good use of nashors AS, Lichbane is plain superior on most APs. Not that thats a bad thing, but it leads to one important Question:

Nashor's Tooth Total Cost: 2920 G --> 3000 G Attack Speed: 50% Attack Speed --> 40% Attack Speed Ability Power: 60 Ability Power --> 80 Ability Power

We're also pushing more items up to compete in the 80 Ability Power range -
While Nashor's is a fine purchase for people who already have strong on-hit procs - the ratio of Attack Speed to Spells favored these characters probably a bit too hard. Nashor's should be acceptable as a niche for certain mages that can use their autoattacks well - but also have decent ratios.

why the hec do they change it more into a mage item with AS on top that offers mages something to do with their AAs rather than Reinforcing it's actuall niche in supporting AS/AP builts? For mages that use some AAs, Lichbane simply is better, on champs that have a good AS-scaleing, you do get nashor's because **it gives AS **!

Only Play DariusJun 24, 20152 votes

It's a forgotten item that can really only be seriously considered on Teemo TwistedFate

Even Diana Azir don't build it, despite having extreme synergy with every single stat it provides.

Fact of the matter is, in order to make use of it, you have to be autoattacking for at least a couple of good seconds, and in teamfights you are already dead at that point (especially if you're melee).

SxliJun 24, 20151 votes

The point of Lich is to benefit people like Teemo or Ezreal who use a skill then auto attack often.

CenturosJun 24, 20151 votes

This is assuming you have a spell to cast and cast it perfectly as soon as LB cools down. People don't do that, except someone like Eve who is permanently mashing Q. I'd say LB gets procced more like 3 times per 6 seconds.

And really, it depends on your cooldowns and what kind of spells you have. Sometimes you want to cast them all at once for burst, rendering Lichbane less useful. In addition, you fail to factor in the other stuff the items give. CDR gives extra DPS, along with extra attack speed (though if you are assuming 2.0 APS, I guess we can assume the speed on Nashors was already factored in)

Lord DusteonJun 24, 20151 votes

Lichbane has a 1.5 second cooldown before you can get the Sheen effect, giving you a maximum of 4 hits in 6 seconds.

ProfDrDeathJun 25, 20151 votes

Actually, he's right about the 5 hits (one thing he's right about).

0 - 1.5 - 3 - 4.5 - 6 : 5 procs in 6 seconds.

Angry MonsterJun 25, 20151 votes

There is a 1.5 sec cool down on liche. It is impossible to proc it every sec.

Sightless66Jun 25, 20151 votes

Lichbane would be proc'd five times over the course of six seconds.

What champion is going to proc this 5 times in 6 seconds? The thing has a 1.5 seocnd cooldown. You'd have to have someone get lichbane procs off literally the instant that they were generated in order for this to be posisble. Seriously, who are you thinking of that would do this? You can't get perfect spellblade usage. You have to actually chain spells together to make them reliable, or burst things on people while they're locked down. You're also going to have to deal with cooldowns. 2-3 procs in 6 seconds is the most you'll get in all but the rarest scenarios, and you might get 1-2 in the next 6 seconds afterwards depending on who you are. You can't assume a perfect situation for Lichbane and just call that reasonable. This analysis is so tiled in Lichbane's favor that the entire exercise is meaningless.