@RiotRepertoir Thank you for being active, but do you have a moment for Sona?

Captain Lito·Aug 11, 2015·7 votes·6,044 views

First off, thank you for being so active Repertoir, you're doing a great job with community interaction + reworks and a lot of us appreciate it. But today I'd like to ask about Sona:

I've been playing a lot of mid Sona, and while I love the champ and her ability to nuke people with her beautiful beats, I feel like her W and E don't provide enough even if they're spammed. (Especially her e, it doesn't really provide what Lulu's w does in terms of utility given the cd difference.) I mean:

Lulu's W: Whimsy RANGE: 650 COST: 65 MANA COOLDOWN: 18 / 16.5 / 15 / 13.5 / 12

Sona's E: Song of Celerity RANGE: 350 COST: 65 MANA COOLDOWN: 12

Factoring in 800 ap and max rank W/E: Lulu's movement speed with W: 110% Bonus Sona's movement speed with E: For herself: 77% Bonus For others: 48% Bonus

Unless I'm an idiot at Math, this really doesn't seem that good compared to Lulu. While the cooldowns are the same and Sona does give access to her Q+W bonuses while people are in her E, Lulu does the same thing with her E+Ult, not to mention she has a much easier time escaping than Sona. Also, this isn't mentioning just how bad Sona's base heal/shield are compared to Lulu.

**Lulu E Scaling: ** Help, Pix! RANGE: 650 COST: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 MANA COOLDOWN: 10 SHIELD STRENGTH: 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 (+ 60% AP)

**Sona W Scaling: ** Aria of Perseverance RANGE: 1000 COST: 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 / 100 MANA COOLDOWN: 10 Heal: MINIMUM HEAL: 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 20% AP) MAXIMUM HEAL: 45 / 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 (+ 30% AP) **Shield: ** SHIELD STRENGTH: 35 / 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 (+ 20% AP) (+ 10 / 20 / 40)

I understand at early ranks it shouldn't be high, otherwise Sona would dominate as a lane bully again, which she's fine at already. But when she gets out of lane...She's just really underpowered compared to Lulu. Sona should be a weaker form of Lulu because of her AoE spells, sure, but doesn't this seem like overkill? I'm just asking for better base scaling on her w/e (Maybe even on her ult bonus to prevent people from maxing w/e early), because when I have to decide between Sona and Lulu, Lulu always seems like the better option. Always.

53 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 11, 201513 votes

I'm not really sure what, if anything, we should do about Sona at this point.

Her Champion.gg win rate is currently almost 53%, which is at least a beginning indication that she's not too weak at the moment. Now, if you were to tell me she's unsatisfying relative to how much power she actually gives, I'd say you're probably right. Though the introduction of snuggle zones to her gameplay last year improved her gameplay and satisfaction, she still has spells that need to be balanced around the fact that they should be hitting several champions on average. To your Lulu example above, you see that as soon as Sona hits just one ally with her E, it actually gives more total Movement Speed than Lulu's W, and that's before any consideration to the diminishing returns on Movement Speed.

Finally, I'm not really sure what exactly Sona's supposed to good at. A bit of everything? If that's the answer, then I'd say she probably already is, and again that's why her satisfaction is maybe not as high as other supports. Is it healing/shielding? Hasting? Damage buffs? Wombo? There's really a lot she does.

ThryaleAug 11, 201510 votes

I don't play sona, but when I play against her, I can definitely say the range on her Q can feel pretty oppressive in lane at times.

Captain LitoAug 11, 20154 votes

Thank you for replying, I appreciate it

The problem with Sona in my opinion is that she just doesn't give enough to the team as she gets into the mid/late game, it's just that her everything isn't enough.

Need heals? Soraka, Bard, Nami

Need movement speed and shields? Lulu, Janna, Zilean, Karma

Need poke? Vel, Braum (His passive is amazing >.<), Zyra.

Hard engage? Lots of junglers are already doing that, ex. Gragas, Jarvan, Vi. But otherwise Alistar, Braum, Nautilus. It's just that everything Sona does (which is a little of everything) isn't enough to really make her super viable, because no matter what matchup you play there's a champ that could do much better for the role required, although her Q is godly. If I had to do anything I would nerf the Q AA amp and buff her W/E base stats, but I don't know.

killd0zerAug 11, 20152 votes

Sona's the support for when you want heals, movement speed, shields, poke, and hard engage.

Miku Hime samaOct 30, 20152 votes

Nami

A Wild AP SonaAug 11, 20158 votes

{quoted}

I'm not really sure what, if anything, we should do about Sona at this point.

Her Champion.gg win rate is currently almost 53%, which is at least a beginning indication that she's not too weak at the moment. Now, if you were to tell me she's unsatisfying relative to how much power she actually gives, I'd say you're probably right. Though the introduction of snuggle zones to her gameplay last year improved her gameplay and satisfaction, she still has spells that need to be balanced around the fact that they should be hitting several champions on average. To your Lulu example above, you see that as soon as Sona hits just one ally with her E, it actually gives more total Movement Speed than Lulu's W, and that's before any consideration to the diminishing returns on Movement Speed.

Finally, I'm not really sure what exactly Sona's supposed to good at. A bit of everything? If that's the answer, then I'd say she probably already is, and again that's why her satisfaction is maybe not as high as other supports. Is it healing/shielding? Hasting? Damage buffs? Wombo? There's really a lot she does.

her win ratio is only high because the 3% of the game population that actually play her are her mains

if her pick rate was 10-15% her win ratio would be in the 40s she loses lane to just about anyone you can pick atm

she is laughably weak and gets out damaged by everyone

please give me your justification for nami/soraka literally doing 2-3x the damage sona does on her q while healing for 2-3x the hp?

LuggAug 11, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Wild AP Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fGrvfPlA,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2015-08-11T02:56:36.339+0000)

she is laughably weak and gets out damaged by everyone

Alistar Bard Braum Janna Leona Nami Soraka Taric

All have lower damage output than Sona.

macromiteAug 11, 20152 votes

a quick note, bard is the most damaging support in the game past a certain point.

LuggAug 11, 20157 votes

Yeah, once you have over a 100 chimes past the 45 minute mark.

DJ Di0Aug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, once you have over a 100 chimes past the 45 minute mark.

I must suck at farming chimes because in an almost hour game I only got to 90 lol

A Wild AP SonaAug 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

All have lower damage output than Sona.

wow kid stfu soraka/nami burst SHIT tons stronger than sona about 3x her damage output to be exact

Sona Magic Damage: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 50% AP) Bonus Magic Damage: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 20% AP) (+ 10 / 20 / 40)

Soraka = 2-3x higher than sona 「 Magic Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 40% AP) 」「 Total Magic Damage: 140 / 220 / 300 / 380 / 460 (+ 80% AP) 」「 Magic Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 35% AP) 」「 Empowered Magic Damage: 105 / 165 / 225 / 285 / 345 (+ 52.5% AP) 」

Nami = 2-3x higher than sona 「 Bonus Magic Damage Per Hit: 25 / 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 (+ 20% AP) 」「 Total Bonus Magic Damage: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+ 60% AP) 」 Magic Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 50% AP) Magic Damage: 75 / 130 / 185 / 240 / 295 (+ 50% AP)

Leona = 2x sona Bonus Magic Damage: 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 (+ 30% AP) Magic Damage: 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 (+ 40% AP) Magic Damage: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 40% AP)

Braum = 2x sona Magic Damage: 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 (+ 2.5% maximum health)

Bard = 2x sona Magic Damage: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 65% AP)

Janna (thats right even the MINIMUM dmg is way stronger than sonas q Minimum Magic Damage: 60 / 85 / 110 / 135 / 160 (+ 35% AP) 「 Bonus Magic Damage Per Second: 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 (+ 10% AP) 」「 Maximum Magic Damage: 105 / 145 / 185 / 225 / 265 (+ 65% AP) 」

please do us all a favor and shut the fuck up kid you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about

fucking graves smokebomb bursts harder than sonas q Magic Damage: 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 (+ 60% AP)

LuggAug 11, 20155 votes

Yeah, let's totally ignore Sona's passive:

POWER CHORD: After casting 3 basic abilities, Sona's next basic attack deals「 13 - 192 」「 13 / 20 / 27 / 35 / 43 / 52 / 62 / 72 / 82 / 92 / 102 / 112 / 122 / 132 / 147 / 162 / 177 / 192 (6 + 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 / 15 at each level) 」(+ 20% AP) bonus magic damage, with an additional effect depending on the last basic ability cast.

She can also hit 2 champions at once with her Q which doubles the damage output, PLUS it is auto targeting, so you never miss. These add a TON of damage output to her kit.

So already your post is complete BS.

Soraka's damaging abilities are easy to avoid. So the majority of her damage doesn't hit. Nami is pretty close to her, but her W is the only reliable damage she has. Leona bonus magic damage is 20-140 with no AP ratio and is dependant on an ally procing it. What you put was the damage for her E which is still lower than Sona's Q. But with the rest of her abilities, she may pass Sona in overall DPS, but she has to hit everthing. Braum's Q does pretty good damage but doesn't land anywhere near as often as Sona's. Bard is behind her early, but does outscale her depending on how quick he collects chimes. So I will concede that one. Janna Q can do more damage, but the longer she charges it to up the damage, the easier it is to dodge.

When you take into account the hit rates of Sona's damage to the other supports listed. She will pretty much always out dps them over time. None of those champs (other than Bard as the game goes on) actually does double the damage of Sona because of her great scaling. So while the numbers look even, in real practice Sona out pokes most of the supports.

Crowe StalkerAug 11, 20151 votes

Well of course her poke's going to do more damage due to accuracy: it's auto-targeted. All she needs to be is in range and to hit Q and it'll find 1 (preferably 2) targets automatically, prioritizing champions.

Pika310Oct 30, 20152 votes

That's a blatant falsity. Braum is the only support with consistently lower damage than Sona. In some worst-case scenarios Taric CAN be lower, but he has higher potential.

LuggOct 30, 20152 votes

Sounds like you need to learn to play her then.

SpecterVonBarenAug 11, 20152 votes

It's not her damage that's the problem, Sona does really good damage, especially if she builds AP. Sona's issue is that she dies to a stiff breeze and despite the situation being better than it was in Season 4, people still love the all in, hard engage supports like Thresh and Leona who just outright murder Sona.

MiraweaveOct 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

she is laughably weak and gets out damaged by everyone

You can say that all you want, but her damage is absolutely incredible. Get some AP behind it (even just from a support income) and you're reliably half-shotting squishies with just your Q and an autoattack. There are problems with sona, but her damage is definitely not one of them. Hell, she can actually burst as hard as leblanc can at level 2.

GinoSoldierAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not really sure what, if anything, we should do about Sona at this point.

Her Champion.gg win rate is currently almost 53%, which is at least a beginning indication that she's not too weak at the moment. Now, if you were to tell me she's unsatisfying relative to how much power she actually gives, I'd say you're probably right. Though the introduction of snuggle zones to her gameplay last year improved her gameplay and satisfaction, she still has spells that need to be balanced around the fact that they should be hitting several champions on average. To your Lulu example above, you see that as soon as Sona hits just one ally with her E, it actually gives more total Movement Speed than Lulu's W, and that's before any consideration to the diminishing returns on Movement Speed.

Finally, I'm not really sure what exactly Sona's supposed to good at. A bit of everything? If that's the answer, then I'd say she probably already is, and again that's why her satisfaction is maybe not as high as other supports. Is it healing/shielding? Hasting? Damage buffs? Wombo? There's really a lot she does.

I'm pretty much a Sona main, though i play her mid now because i can't stand building her with weak support items, it always feels like she can do so much more.

I'd like to ask for a favor; When it comes to her Q, would it be possible to add a tiny (thinking just large enough to hit two or three clumped up minions) AoE effect to her Q shots? It wouldn't be enough to make Sona stronger at poking as such while giving Sona mid a boost in wave clearing, and making Sona supports more wary of using Q near low health minions.

As far as the rest of her kit goes, since her kit mostly promotes using Power Chord smartly, i would recommend buffing the W and E Powerchords if nothing else. Reduce the ratios to lower full AP Sonas from being too strong, but raise their base values somewhat (or their duration, why not?). A lot of people i see tend to forget that Sona has a Slow and a damage reduction.

Another path (though it would feel more like a rework, somewhat) would be to add weak (very weak, otherwise she'd become broken very fast, i believe.) on-hit versions of Q's AA damage buff to her W and E Auras, implying anyone within her Auras would get the effects just like her Q AA buff. Lets say 10 to 30% MS slow for .75 seconds on hit after casting E, and say 2-5% damage reduction on hit after casting W. If so, i'd recommend not letting Sona or anyone affected by her Auras be able to use more than one on-hit effect at any one time.

Just my 2 cents.

HellioningAug 11, 20153 votes

I view her as 'the poke support.' Like, of all of the main-role supports, not any mages or anything, she's probably the best at poke.

Honestly, I'm satisfied with her actual abilities. I just hate how squishy she is. I spend a minute whittling down their lane, doing my best to take no damage...and then I get hooked by Thresh at full health and I have to flash or I'm dead.

Crowe StalkerAug 11, 20151 votes

I think if anything, Sona needs to have power taken from her Poke and added to her Utility and Healing (why is the character pretty much everyone I've ever asked agreed to be pretty much the Mother Character of League have most of her power loaded in her Poke?) and Crescendo needs to become a Channeled Suppression (first wave Suppresses, several waves follow for damage.)

Also, OP, you are doing it wrong, everyone I ever see say Sona is weak compare her to Nami .

A Wild AP SonaAug 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I think if anything, Sona needs to have power taken from her Poke and added to her Utility and Healing (why is the character pretty much everyone I've ever asked agreed to be pretty much the Mother Character of League have most of her power loaded in her Poke?) and Crescendo needs to become a Channeled Suppression (first wave Suppresses, several waves follow for damage.)

Also, OP, you are doing it wrong, everyone I ever see say Sona is weak compare her to .

downvoted for trying to turn an ap poke mage into another janna

and the character everyone agrees with that you asked is because you only know bad kids so their opinion is automatically invalid

Crowe StalkerAug 11, 20151 votes

Lux Velkoz Annie Lulu Thresh Soraka Zilean Zyra Janna All have stronger poke, sometimes with added utility on it. (Granted, half those require you build a support item and sightstone and barely classify as 'Supports' but they are all viable Poke Supports if played decently)

Again, I also point to Nami who does everything Sona does better if she lands her bubbles and skips her W properly. This will be especially true with the incoming buffs (if they hit live) on the PBE to her passive and Ultimate.

Age of OblivionAug 11, 20152 votes

That's only true in lane and requires singificantly higher level of play from the Nami. In a teamfight, Sona is far more efficient in distributing her buffs.

Edge of DaybreakAug 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

All have stronger poke, sometimes with added utility on it. (Granted, half those require you build a support item and sightstone and barely classify as 'Supports' but they are all viable Poke Supports if played decently)

Again, I also point to who does everything Sona does better if she lands her bubbles and skips her W properly. This will be especially true with the incoming buffs (if they hit live) on the PBE to her passive and Ultimate.

Yeah but that should be the case. Nami who has to actually work for her damage should be rewarded for it over a champion just pressing a button. If nami wasnt better than sona while requiring you to actually hit skillshots then why would we play her ever? Sona cant be allowed to be stronger than supports who actually have to hit skillshots especially when she is a jack of all trades.

BTW for that poke section you also forgot to mention most of their poke is skillshots and can miss/be dodged.

ProfDrDeathAug 11, 20152 votes

DID YOU JUST SAY THAT Janna HAS STRONGER POKE THAN Sona ?

Crowe StalkerAug 11, 20151 votes

Well to be fair, Janna would probably be more about the Knock-up and Follow-up from her ADC. Hymn of Valor is fire and forget, Howling Gale is 'It hit? Go auto before they can respond or throw a skillshot'. That said... If her Q is allowed to charge, yes, it has more damage. 65 more base at max rank and 15% better AP scaling to be exact.

As to the Empowered Auto part... have you seen the kind of Attack Damage a Janna Shield adds?

Nagoh ShanAug 11, 20151 votes

Though the introduction of snuggle zones to her gameplay last year improved her gameplay and satisfaction, she still has spells that need to be balanced around the fact that they should be hitting several champions on average.

I really have to disagree. I don't feel the zones added or improved her Gameplay or play satisfaction, and much of the feedback on the rework resonated the same, though other players may like it, I don't think it does anyone a service to say this so matter of factly.

My main issue with the rework is that it made Sona impossible to balance to the point where when she's a strong support, she's an oppressive one. Her utility and damage both scale off AP now, whereas before she had spell damage off AP (at a higher ratio) and non scaling utility. This was similar to Thresh where the utility could be manage a great deal easier. Now both aspects scale off AP so mage Sona and support Sona both need the same stat to succeed, so itemizing for one means you itemize for both (the hard part to balance) but if you don't itemize for AP, and seek utility items instead, you have no floor in the non scaling effects making both your damage and utility anemic.

The rework didn't hit the points that it was intending to do. She actually lost her depth as before there was a cost to using one stance over another as they were stances. Now as they are effectively PBAoE actives they cost nothing but mana to use, so there is no decision to which one to use as the effects are no longer mutually exclusive. An issue exacerbated by the armor changing to a low duration shield that doesn't persist.

She isn't more rewarding because she cant be. If she's more rewarding, she's getting more effect for action, but because all action scales now, she will pull head and shoulders above where she was, and become super oppressive (this actually happened before she was nerfed the first and second time). So all of her effects have to be scaled back for the eventuality of AP being built, because AP must be built as there is no longer a non scaling floor she could rely on.

Additionally despite claiming she would be able to make plays and save allies, she was given the weaknesses of not being as capable of responding and making plays, when she was nerfed, saying she was supposed to be vulnerable and unable to do so. So the rework failed in that sense as well as she was supposed to be less static and more active, while her play pattern degraded into a similar Q poke pattern with much harder to balance numbers and no other options for play.

So the rework only ended up making a more frustrating and less rewarding (outside of items) version of her old play pattern all in the name of making Sona less passive and able to actively affect a game. All while having the enforced weakness of not being able to respond to the types of all in plays that they were claiming the rework would allow her to affect.

NullDragonAug 11, 20151 votes

Tempo-based gameplay? Damage, utility, CC, heal should all be linked to some sort of tempo somehow that her opponent(and allies) can play around.

DJ Di0Aug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not really sure what, if anything, we should do about Sona at this point.

Her Champion.gg win rate is currently almost 53%, which is at least a beginning indication that she's not too weak at the moment. Now, if you were to tell me she's unsatisfying relative to how much power she actually gives, I'd say you're probably right. Though the introduction of snuggle zones to her gameplay last year improved her gameplay and satisfaction, she still has spells that need to be balanced around the fact that they should be hitting several champions on average. To your Lulu example above, you see that as soon as Sona hits just one ally with her E, it actually gives more total Movement Speed than Lulu's W, and that's before any consideration to the diminishing returns on Movement Speed.

Finally, I'm not really sure what exactly Sona's supposed to good at. A bit of everything? If that's the answer, then I'd say she probably already is, and again that's why her satisfaction is maybe not as high as other supports. Is it healing/shielding? Hasting? Damage buffs? Wombo? There's really a lot she does.

Yay, I've been waiting for you to respond to a Sona thread :)

This will be pretty lengthy but I really hope you have the time to skim through this!

I'd like to say that the problem I have with Sona is that** I don't feel like I have control** over her abilities.

Her rework was a step in the right direction as it moved away a bit from the QWEQWEQWEQWE playstyle of just stance dancing for stats, but she's still pretty awkward for a support.

Her Q is probably the most problematic of her kit. When her numbers are high she pushes people out of lane with ease; you don't even have to mouse over your target, it picks it for you. Yet when her numbers are low she doesn't do much in lane, as she has no pre-6 cc like most supports do. I regard her as the Vladimir of supports. It's been more apparent in this meta where tanky supports are popular. Q all you want, that Nautilus/Blitz/Leona aren't going anywhere; but one of their hooks hit you and you're going to die. It's pretty hard to balance.

I feel that this is also why she still has a high winrate. She's so easy to use and actually making a mistake in gameplay other than missing your ult or positioning wrong is very rare. Same reason why Warwick still has a high winrate after all his nerfs.

I suggest following the trend of the past reworks and make her Q a skillshot. A lot of people are against doing this to chamions ( Ryze Veigar Fiora ), but I feel that it offers them more room for strengths without being overbearing. Maybe something like a mix of Lulu's Q and Heimer's rockets?

Another idea I have is **making her auras a second active **(like Lee's Q,W,E) and giving them a little versatility. An example would be with her E; first she would activate the first cast and speed herself up. She then activates E a second time and places her aura on a target location; it slows enemies and speeds up allies. This would also solve the issue where most Sona players don't even level E until way later in the game, as it's not very useful on it's early ranks nor without significant AP.

Tl;dr raise Sona's skill floor/ceiling by taking away reliability, and add more player-control of her abilities in order to make her a 'control' support.

ArcticSiriusAug 11, 20151 votes

A part of me wonders why the idea of having Sona's R becoming bigger as she levels it isn't a thing (but I also know why it isn't). For theme, to me when the game enters its mid-late game, Sona has much more of an audience for her to play for. So it only makes sense that her ultimate would become much bigger and louder for the crescendo. However gameplay wise, this would involve damage nerfs most likely as well as other things. Try it out though

Edit: What made me think of this was not only the theme of more people to listen to her finale, but also that in the late game it becomes harder to land the ultimate at times be it a spread team or simply faster.

Origami KaijuAug 11, 20151 votes

At the very least, Sona's ult cooldown should start closer to Nami's, rather than being the same as Braums.

Sona's Ult cd - 140 / 120 / 100 Bard's Ult cd - 130 / 115 / 90 Nami's Ult cd - 120 / 110 / 100 Alistar's Ult cd - 120 / 100 / 80 Braum's Ult Cd - 140 / 120 / 100

I know it doesn't seem like much, but when your opponent has access to their ult 20 seconds before you, it definitely gives them an advantageous window of opportunity. This is also really important for Sona because Crescendo is her only form of hard CC, which is quite uncommon among supports.

AwoofAug 11, 20152 votes

{quoted} Though the introduction of snuggle zones to her gameplay last year improved her gameplay and satisfaction

That's arguable, I think. I know the zones are more in line with what you (as in the team) consider satisfactory and healthy, but I'm sure you are aware quite some people preferred her auras as well.

CetherAug 11, 20151 votes

I'll respond to this since Sona is and has been my favorite champion for a looooong time.

You're kinda correct, Sona should be good at everything: But never at once. To me the best part of Sona has always been her passive, a single glorifying moment where you choose to do something extraordinary based on your current needs, and once you choose you can't do it again for awhile. For me the current Sona has always felt less satisfying than old Sona, even if she is technically stronger (and she is), because so much of her passives power was removed.

I remember in the earlier seasons Sona used to get nerfed all the time because she was the only Support with on demand ranged AoE hard CC. Now we have Annie, Leona, Lulu, Bard, Thresh, and Morgana all living in the bot lane. Sona also used to be an insane lane bully, but now most bot lanes are tanky enough to endure it and Sona is so squishy that getting caught once is often a death sentence. Sona also has issues against ganks when the enemy jungler has mobility abilities (read approximately every viable jungler).

Despite this Sona has a high win rate, and I think this is because if Sona can not get dunked before team fighting starts she offers a ton because she gives everyone on her team a little which turns into a lot when added together. Which is great for her "power", but not for it being satisfying to play as her. Moving some of her power budget to her passive would fix this I think, specifically her AP ratios.

As far as people complaining about her laning, I think her laning is fine. Yes if she gets caught she dies, but for how much she does late this should be her weak time. You can do things if you massively out play your opponent. I feel like Sona should be the "scaling support" who has a weak early game but a massive late game, which is kinda how she plays at the moment.

RedCycloneAug 11, 20152 votes

You could maybe give people a reason to pick Sona over Nami, rather then Sona just being training wheels then thrown out for better supports when people get better at the role

You are currently giving Lee and Zed buffs for the reason that lower skilled players do not do well with her, you used champion.gg so look at her winrate go down the more she is played by the 100th game with her, she has a lower % winrate then people's first 10 games So in giving lee and zed those low skilled player buffs, Sona really wouldn't mind some high skilled player buffs like don't know, make her E do something more then a static 1% increase in movement speed per rank

RogueWillAug 11, 20151 votes

I play sona a lot and at times I just would like to feel that I'm even squishier than a minion. IS so scary to go in and try to provide utility if I know that at the slight mistake I'm going to be blown... Is hard to use her snuggle zone effectively when you can't be on the frontlines or even close to it since you will die so fast so most of the times the snuggle zone after lanning phase is limited to your adc anyway since is the only one staying on teh backlines.

Linna ExcelAug 11, 20151 votes

I like sona, but I'm not sure if she's quite right atm. I mean she's got a good win rate and all. Her current playstyle is close to the old one, but something feels a tad off.

As someone who plays her these are the things I like:

poking for damage as much as possible with my Q.
healing with my W (I don't like playing the new soraka so much anymore Sona is my go-to healer ATM)
hitting that ult and my team following up on it
building AP whenever I can get away with it.
KSing like a pro. If you aren't KSing, you aren't playing sona right.

Here are things I don't like:

My team not following up on my ult when I hit it.
missing the ult and getting blown up.
her auras suck at my elo. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it is just that I can't trust my allies to make the most of them. I mean if I poke an enemy champ and you AA a creep with full HP, I want to cry.
Not being able to CS well with her.
My Q and W doesn't feel like the spammy goodness they used to.
Sightstone takes up a slot I could be using for AP and there's no AP sightstone upgrade. We totally need a ++ item for the more damagy AP supports like Sona, Zyra, or Annie.

While I'm thinking about it, we need a item 2049 * item 3070 item that gives healing and mana regen and upgrades your wards somehow. I'm thinking more champion health based on max mana and a limited range true vision (half range maybe) on mana upgrade of item.

Leaf of the lakeAug 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fGrvfPlA,comment-id=0001000e,timestamp=2015-08-11T19:57:10.057+0000)

Sightstone takes up a slot I could be using for AP and there's no AP sightstone upgrade. We totally need a ++ item for the more damagy AP supports like Sona, Zyra, or Annie.

Sona is the only one that would appreciate the sheen in that sightstone recipe. The aether wisp actually sounds like a good path to take; we could end up with a sightstone that grants something like 40 AP and 5-6% MS for around 1900g (total cost). I doubt riot's going to make alternative upgrades to sightstone anytime soon though.

Leaf of the lakeAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not really sure what, if anything, we should do about Sona at this point.

Her Champion.gg win rate is currently almost 53%, which is at least a beginning indication that she's not too weak at the moment. Now, if you were to tell me she's unsatisfying relative to how much power she actually gives, I'd say you're probably right. Though the introduction of snuggle zones to her gameplay last year improved her gameplay and satisfaction, she still has spells that need to be balanced around the fact that they should be hitting several champions on average. To your Lulu example above, you see that as soon as Sona hits just one ally with her E, it actually gives more total Movement Speed than Lulu's W, and that's before any consideration to the diminishing returns on Movement Speed.

Finally, I'm not really sure what exactly Sona's supposed to good at. A bit of everything? If that's the answer, then I'd say she probably already is, and again that's why her satisfaction is maybe not as high as other supports. Is it healing/shielding? Hasting? Damage buffs? Wombo? There's really a lot she does.

I'd say one of the least satisfying parts of her kit right now is the scaling on her E. The AP% and ult bonuses are far more noticeable than actually ranking the ability. While having a one-point wonder is fine, the AP% scaling is so much higher for herself than her allies that it starts to feel really out of place. If you build a decent amount of AP, Sona herself will be zooming around the map and leaving her allies in the dust - even when tagging them with the aura. This is because not only does the self-buff last longer, but it also has a higher starting value before decaying down to the aura value. Currently, her E has a 7.5% AP ratio for her self-buff and a 3.5% AP ratio for the aura buff. Equalizing the AP ratio to 5% per 100 AP for both herself and her allies would make it a more unified support ability rather than a selfish ability, which fits her identity better and would make the ability feel better to use.

Alternatively, it might be better to increase the duration of the aura buff as E rank increases. In the early game, having a selfish MS buff is fine and useful for roaming, placing wards, etc. But when lategame comes around, she wants to be staying with her allies; taking off like a racecar while the others follow behind isn't exactly conducive to that. Maybe reduce her self-MS buff duration to 2.5s (from 3s), while making the aura buff scale from 1.5s-2.5s as the ability is ranked. This would be a slight nerf to her early roaming, but a large buff to her team's roaming/engage/disengage in the lategame. With this, she probably wouldn't need an increased AP ratio on her aura buff, though a reduction on the AP ratio for her self-MS buff might still be in order.

The goal of these changes would be to shift power in her E toward supporting her allies and away from selfishly increasing her MS, without having to take away power from elsewhere in her kit.

Kei143Aug 12, 20151 votes

Finally, I'm not really sure what exactly Sona's supposed to good at. A bit of everything? If that's the answer, then I'd say she probably already is, and again that's why her satisfaction is maybe not as high as other supports. Is it healing/shielding? Hasting? Damage buffs? Wombo? There's really a lot she does.

For me (a bronzie) I just find it hard to get a group of people into aura. Esp in a fight where I need to be switching auras and trying to get the buffs on as many people as possible. Most the time, I'll need to move around ALOT in order to buff the right people, and by the time I get there, somewhere else requires me to use another aura and I just can't serve enough people at the same time. The aura range just feels very small, and because of the lower ratios, it doesn't feel as satisfying and not as clutch compared to others.

Look at OP's lulu example, the impact is BIG and makes you feel the clutch in lulu plays. On sona's side, that puny little shield on my adc only that an enemy bruiser can just rip through in 1 AA feels a little less clutch, which is basically what is satisfying to a support. Clutch saves that we can feel the difference.

Granted it is a 1 ally buff VS an AoE buff, but the range of the auras is the main thing I feel needs improvement.

EDIT: Random thought, if the shape of sona's aura changed to a little less around her sides & back direction, but more in her front, I wonder how would that feel .... thematically .. its like having .. speakers .. the forward direction has a higher amplitude than the backside.

That would in theory make it a little easier to hit the prime targets of the aura and requires sona to have better positioning and weaving back and forth of the front and back line.

Pika310Oct 30, 20152 votes

Her Champion.gg win rate is currently almost 53%,

The fact that the first thing you jump to as an excuse is "winrates" proves that you're unqualified for your job and makes everything you say highly suspect. (Thresh has a very low winrate, by YOUR logic that means he needs massive buffs, right?)

Though the introduction of snuggle zones to her gameplay last year improved her gameplay and satisfaction,

This is a blatant lie. Every reliable response is that they feel bad to use, do not match her identity and all this without even mentioning how terribly weak they are. If you're completely oblivious to actual facts regarding Sona, just say so. Stop condescending us with intentional disinformation.

Finally, I'm not really sure what exactly Sona's supposed to good at. A bit of everything? If that's the answer, then I'd say she probably already is,

This is just another blatant lie. She's factually the worst or 2nd-worst in everything. That just takes looking at the numbers, which apparently you couldn't be bothered to even do that much.

There's really a lot she does.

"Doing a lot" doesn't mean you're doing any of it well. Fact of the matter is, everything she does, she's literally the worst at. You know who else does everything Sona does? Nami and Bard. Are they worst-in-class like Sona? Hell no. So then why is Rito discriminatory solely in Sona's case when there are 2 other champions that are exact copies of her?

You've proven you're just as incompetent at "balance" as the likes of both Fearless and Jag.

Captain LitoAug 11, 20151 votes

I don't understand why I'm being downvoted, I'm just asking Repetoir for his opinion, I'm not asking for Sona to be super buffed here. I'm just saying in a comparison Lulu does way more than Sona right now, even if Sona has AoE spells...

A Wild AP SonaAug 11, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand why I'm being downvoted, I'm just asking Repetoir for his opinion, I'm not asking for Sona to be super buffed here. I'm just saying in a comparison Lulu does way more than Sona right now, even if Sona has AoE spells...

dont worry about it

only bad kids from platinum and below think sona is actually viable

anyone diamond 2+ in any kind of real elo knows that she is a troll pick and will auto lose lane to someone like naut/blitz

her q needs to be buffed back to 50 lvl 1 with 250 @ max lvl and her passive needs to be changed back to 100% instead of 40% and her e needs to work on minions then she will be viable again

Captain LitoAug 11, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Wild AP Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fGrvfPlA,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-11T00:53:19.796+0000)

dont worry about it

only bad kids from platinum and below think sona is actually viable

anyone diamond 2+ in any kind of real elo knows that she is a troll pick and will auto lose lane to someone like naut/blitz

her q needs to be buffed back to 50 lvl 1 with 250 @ max lvl and her passive needs to be changed back to 100% instead of 40% and her e needs to work on minions then she will be viable again

I don't think her Q needs to be changed actually, you can one shot someone mid-game if you get the damage amp. I do think her W/E could use some buffs though, nothing too extreme though.

A Wild AP SonaAug 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I don't think her Q needs to be changed actually, you can one shot someone mid-game if you get the damage amp. I do think her W/E could use some buffs though, nothing too extreme though.

Sona Q

Magic Damage: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 50% AP)

sorry kiddo but nami ebb and flow does 2x the damage of sona q and EVEN SORAKA out bursts sona check her damage output on both her skills soraka can hit for like 3x the damage that sona can at level 1 except soraka can heal for 1000 hp in the time it takes sona to heal for 80 hp mid/end game

「 Magic Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 35% AP) 」「 Empowered Magic Damage: 105 / 165 / 225 / 285 / 345 (+ 52.5% AP) 」

「 Magic Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 40% AP) 」「 Total Magic Damage: 140 / 220 / 300 / 380 / 460 (+ 80% AP) 」

ap soraka with lich bane could burst harder than sona so could an ap nami with lich bane

GinoSoldierAug 11, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Wild AP Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fGrvfPlA,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-11T00:58:02.063+0000)

Sona Q
Magic Damage: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 50% AP)

Why do people always neglect her real power? Sona's Q power doesn't come from her actual Q shots, it comes from the AA amplifiers.

Sona at 500 AP, casts one Q; 200+250(50% AP) damage x2, that's already really 900 damage. But assuming 5 people get the buff and use it (which should happen ALL THE TIME in a teamfight), that's 100+100(20%AP) x5, 1000. Now add both. That's 1900 potential damage from ONE Sona Q. And we're still not mentioning her passive, or ult to that potential damage.

On her own, on one target, Q and 1AA still deals 650 magic damage from Q alone. Oh, yes, and unlike Soraka, that damage is actually perfectly reliable as it CAN'T MISS (to illustrate, i once killed a Teemo with a Lich+Powerchord+Q AA sent just before he recalled, that followed him right into the spawn and killed him before he could heal up). Unlike Soraka, Sona doesn't rely on anyone to heal herself, and can use the shield to smart-block some damage at the same time too. Nami is a much better contender because of her utility, but no, a Nami would be extremely unlikely to outdamage a Sona with even AP.

Captain LitoAug 11, 20151 votes

True, but her Q is really all she has for her team, her W and E are really weak considering their base values/cooldowns. Giving some power to her W/E would be great, she has enough power on Q as it is.

Edit: What if every time Sona casts an ult it gives her an immediate Passive amp? Slightly nerf her Q aa amp along with it, buff her W/E base values and she may be viable again.

A Wild AP SonaAug 11, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Why do people always neglect her real power? Sona's Q power doesn't come from her actual Q shots, it comes from the AA amplifiers.

Sona at 500 AP, casts one Q; 200+250(50% AP) damage x2, that's already really 900 damage. But assuming 5 people get the buff and use it (which should happen ALL THE TIME in a teamfight),

-_- I can tell what elo you are without looking you up

thats called how to throw a team fight 101

first of all no sona is gonna get 500 ap even with my 5 item ap build I hit about 400ish and dont break 500 until I sell a 20 stack mejai for a deathcap like 50 minutes in the game

and NO you dont count multi target abilities as total damage when dueling someone or fighting you hit ONE target maybe 2 but usually one

why the fuck would 5 ppl be clumped together within 150 range?

GinoSoldierAug 11, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Wild AP Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fGrvfPlA,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-08-11T02:00:50.418+0000)

-_- I can tell what elo you are without looking you up

thats called how to throw a team fight 101

first of all no sona is gonna get 500 ap even with my 5 item ap build I hit about 400ish and dont break 500 until I sell a 20 stack mejai for a deathcap like 50 minutes in the game

and NO you dont count multi target abilities as total damage when dueling someone or fighting you hit ONE target maybe 2 but usually one

why the fuck would 5 ppl be clumped together within 150 range?

First off, Sona isn't immobile and has plenty of time and mobility to spread those aura's bonuses around far and wide, and it's 150 range on one side, implying the aura is actually 300 range diameter, so get your facts straight.

As far as Elo goes, yeah, i'm bronze right now and it doesn't matter at all for the purpose of this argument. You claimed that Nami or Soraka can outburst Sona, and i gave numbers to show you wrong. Even through diminishing the scaling, i'd still be right, considering we haven't factored in Sona's passive in the damage, or it's potential W effect. Sona is considered an early game Lane Bully for a good reason.

Second, while building Locket, for instance, has merit with it's active shield and aura, it's still much more, by far, profitable to build either a RoA or a Rylai's on her due to the fact that everything she does with her kit scales up very well. In exchange for a 30 CD weak shield, i get a buff on my 6 CD better shield and heal, not to mention everything else at the same time. Sure you can argue that the Locket's aura is invaluable, but consider that the aura is getting nerfed again this patch. I usually just reverse it and get Abyssal Scepter instead. Worst case, I'd get Banner of Command.

I can make a similar argument about every other support item and be right except Sightstone and the GP5 items, when, and (almost) only when, talking about Sona. This doesn't include Janna, or Soraka, or Nami, or anyone else. I very strongly believe that Full Mage Sona is better than Support Sona at supporting overall.

If my hunch is right, next preseason might see Sightstone and bought wards removed in favor of Trinket amelioration and diversification. If that happens, i'll be playing Full Mage Sona support again instead of going Sona mid (and winning).

A Wild AP SonaAug 11, 20155 votes

{quoted}

First off, Sona isn't immobile and has plenty of time and mobility to spread those aura's bonuses around far and wide, and it's 150 range on one side, implying the aura is actually 300 range diameter, so get your facts straight.

As far as Elo goes, yeah, i'm bronze right now and it doesn't matter at all for the purpose of this argument. You claimed that Nami or Soraka can outburst Sona, and i gave numbers to show you wrong. Even through diminishing the scaling, i'd still be right, considering we haven't factored in Sona's passive in the damage, or it's potential W effect. Sona is considered an early game Lane Bully for a good reason.

Second, while building Locket, for instance, has merit with it's active shield and aura, it's still much more, by far, profitable to build either a RoA or a Rylai's on her due to the fact that everything she does with her kit scales up very well. In exchange for a 30 CD weak shield, i get a buff on my 6 CD better shield and heal, not to mention everything else at the same time. Sure you can argue that the Locket's aura is invaluable, but consider that the aura is getting nerfed again this patch. I usually just reverse it and get Abyssal Scepter instead. Worst case, I'd get Banner of Command.

I can make a similar argument about every other support item and be right except Sightstone and the GP5 items, when, and (almost) only when, talking about Sona. This doesn't include Janna, or Soraka, or Nami, or anyone else. I very strongly believe that Full Mage Sona is better than Support Sona at supporting overall.

If my hunch is right, next preseason might see Sightstone and bought wards removed in favor of Trinket amelioration and diversification. If that happens, i'll be playing Full Mage Sona support again instead of going Sona mid (and winning).

your using shitty ass arguements "sona with 4 other champions can do more damage than 1 champion can alone"

no fucking shit sherlock

try in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation

sona is not an early lane bully because her 40 damage q cant even poke through the sustain of a doran blade being supported by a relic shield her poke cannot even accumulate until level 3 and level 5 but by then she can easily be bursted down by anyone thats not a bronzie like you