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My Beef with this Board.

NotSpecialDude··13 votes·2,461 views

http://jbssa.com/images/our-business/beef/cutout-beef.jpg

All jokes aside, I do have an issue with this board. Can we stop spamming the board with soloq/DQ topics?

I get it, DQ is a failed experiment, and 4-man premades suck yada yada. but its getting ludicrous how many boards damning the queue and demanding soloq are made with absolutely no new information. I don't care that you ran into a premade with Hitler, Saddam and Teemo. There isn't much that could really be said besides "sucks to be you. Hope your next game is better."

As hard as it is to accept it, DQ is here to stay for the entirety of this season.

Riot will no doubt change the system at the end of this season, I'd bet real cash on it. And my proof is simple. They changed the upper elos queue. Lets be clear, Diamond and above consists of a small 2% for ranked players which they themselves do not make the majority of players in the entire game. That 2% also plays a key role in motivating us bronzes into climbing. If they are willing to change the queue for that small group then its clear that they see the problems with the queue. The only things that keeps them from putting those changes for the rest of us is simple, consistency and pride.

There's no point in dividing the rankings into seasons if they are going to do massive changes willynilly. Its one of the reasons the preseason and mid season are things. Out side of new champs and balance updates; the game is supposed to be consistent throughout the season. To encourage mastery and have a stable meta. Changing something that effects the game massively so late could easily set a president and invalidate the value of future season rankings.

As for pride, well... that's kind of self explanatory.

TL;DR - Look I get the frustration, but we aren't accomplishing anything by blindly bashing the queue and accepting any insult towards it as fact. It will be addressed by the end of this season and it would be better for the board to be concise and focus providing sensible solutions that can both be applied now or when the season ends. If all we do is bitch, then they have to come up with themselves, and they may not be what we want or need.

P.S. This is gonna drown in downvotes, but eh, it was mostly me venting anyway.

35 Comments

Sneakyy XD5 votes

{quoted} we aren't accomplishing anything

You don't know that.

Also, there is an infinitely higher chance of accomplishing something by posting about it than by ignoring it.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

I'm not saying to ignore it. I'm saying to be productive. How many of these dq sucks/ give us soloq topics offered a sensible solution or a practical method to fix the queue?

Riot is aware of the problem, (if they weren't their changes to the high elo queues would be un warranted) now is the perfect time to offer solutions to the problem as they would have time to test it and code it before preseason.

Dextix LT3 votes

The solutions and arguments were already offered.

If Riot ignores them, its their problem.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

That wasn't an answer to my question though. My question was WHAT arguments have been made? WHAT solutions have been offered?

I asked this because the boards need some form of introspection. We need to tackle this problem from a different angle. All we are achomplishing is tilting our selfs and souring our experience even further by wallowing in our own salt.

Dextix LT2 votes

Check the boards, because now even i am tired of typing the same shit 10000 times.

Sneakyy XD2 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying to ignore it. I'm saying to be productive. How many of these dq sucks/ give us soloq topics offered a sensible solution or a practical method to fix the queue?

Riot is aware of the problem, (if they weren't their changes to the high elo queues would be un warranted) now is the perfect time to offer solutions to the problem as they would have time to test it and code it before preseason.

The solution has been given. Riot knows what the solution is.

There's nothing left to do expect continue to pressure Riot to fix the problem.

Slack King3 votes

Nah, youve seen the salt that gets spilled everyday in ranked. You think that wont translate over into the forums? The amount of cry babies in the world these days is pretty crazy.

Dextix LT3 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6lvDL4cNdM

This is the answer why we should not shut up.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

I have never said to ignore the problem. I want a change in approach is all. Constant complaining is a good way to get attention, but as I said riot is aware of the queue's problems. If they weren't then they wouldn't have changed the high elo queue.

All I'm asking is for the "I hate dq" boards to be replaced with "how to fix dq."

Dextix LT3 votes

We already explained how to do it 10000000 times.

BRING BACK SOLOQ.

Then go from there! Dynamic is an inherently flawed system. But soloq isnt, and you can improve it.

If Riot doesnt give a shit, its not our problem.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

Do you even know what the difference between soloq and dq is? It's just the fact that we can group in numbers larger then 2 now.

They could literally change the name of the queue and you'd only notice if there's a 4man premade on your team.

The demand for soloq fine, but it frustrates me. What if we like playing with friends in a serious environment? Do you seriously expect the game to have massive improvements if you can't group? And why?

"Bring back soloq" is not a solution, it's a demand. Not an invalid demand mind you. But riot won't screw over their most profitable portion of players just to satisfy the boards. We need to compromise and come up with sensible solutions that staisfy both camps.

Dextix LT2 votes

Yes, and that fact is the inherent flaw of the system. Duo was not good, but it was something you could tolerate, but any more and it is completely shit.

The biggest problem that stems from dynamic q. Is the loss of any ranked integrity.

  1. You have premades and soloes in same matchups, and the solo player is always at a disatvantage at those times. Thus there is no fairness and one group of players always has an advantage, thus be able to rise even if their skill level is not that high. This creates skill discrepancy over all rankings which results in even more unfair mathups and failures in matchmaking because it cant accuratelly distinguish someones skill.

  2. Even when premades are on your team, it is bad for the solo. Because it robs him of his team contribution. He will never contribute as 3 or 4 people will. Thus he has less decision power, less carrying power and is dependant not on his skill but on skill off his premade. This is especially bad when the solo is simply pushed out of the group and has to be playing pretty much alone.

  3. All of this results in rampant LEGAL boosting. Previously, you could still boost, but it was 1 account at most. Now you can boost up to 4 people. Again, this makes the ranking not matter because noone can be sure, who was boosted and who was not. And noone is sure if the person who is playing with you or against you even deserves his rank.

All of this results in the diminishing worth of any rankings since it is not dependant on skill as much anymore and is made by far more variables that before (Making it more innaccurate). This also results in worse game quality as solo players become disadvantaged, while premades are empowered.

Thus ranked integrity, is gone.

If you liked playing with friends in a serious environment, you had team 5's. And we soloes should not suffer just because you want to play with friends. The only possible serious ranked environment is solo environment, where everyone has a fair chance to win, everyone has input and they are not completely dependent on others to win.

And yes, bringing back soloq IS the solution. Because you cant fix an inherently flawed system. No matter what you do it will remain flawed at its core. And no, casuals are not the most profitable portion of players, you can ask WOW and runescape that, because they also had the same idea.

You cant satisfy both camps, because as long as premade groups can math with soloes, the soloes will ALWAYS be screwed over.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

I disagree. If the integrity of rank has been defiled we would have significant changes in the rank ratios. More people should be in gold and plat then ever before with bronze and silver being at its lowest. Except... This isn't happening.

Bronze and silver still make up the majority of the ranked player base and the upper elos are only different by small percentages. Any way you shake it, premades didn't ruin the integrity of ranked in any queue below diamond. (They changed diamond queues because of its impact.)

Gonna need proof for that claim.

Dextix LT1 votes

Except that rank ratio information is not given by Riot, and the one anyone can find easily, is olly the ranked distribution of the last month. You cant say that this is not happening because you have no data either.

However, i can safely say, that i have found far too many people who were silver last season and are plat/diamond this one. Which is not really possible. Also, you can log in to many streams daily and see how people are getting boosted daily, and even get paid for it.

And bronze and silver WILL ALWAYS be the majority of the playerbase. Diamond is how much, 0.25% of the entire league community? This will alwyas be the case, this however, does not disprove the point.

However, if we see at possibilities, this indeed ruins ranked integrity( Again look at streams or check "individual" players and their silver>plat>Diamond "rises") And i cannot provide numerical data, because riot never gives it out anymore (Wonder why).

Also, you ignored the rest of the arguments, so please, respond to them too if you will.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

I did not provide numbers, my mistake. heres what I used. http://na.op.gg/statistics/tier/ http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/rank-distribution http://www.nerfplz.com/2013/03/distribution-of-ranked-players-on-na.html

The third link is the more important, as it gives the ratio of 2013 or season 4.

My point is that the changes aren't massive enough.

As for the other two points let me refute them.

If your playing with a premade makes little difference. There is no defined leader in the team. What matters is that the group works together and pings when it needs too. If you feel that playing with a premade makes you insignificant, ask yourself why. A good eye on the mini map and a plethora of pinging will keep you up to date. And if you feel that they aren't listening to your suggestions, then adjust. Focus on farming, pay attention. There is no ingame stat that weakens solo players. If you want to clam up and expect to be useful, well... Good luck.

As for the legal boosting. I've said this before but not to you specifically. Boosting is being exaggerated on the boards. Is it possible? Yes. Is it happening on a large scale? NO. Try to think with an ounce of logic. How far can you carry 4 people. A diamond/Plat could easily carry bronzes to silver but after that? those 4 will drag down the team down and hard the further they climb. Not to mention that once the booster is gone they are gonna fall like you wouldn't believe as they would be up against players far beyond their skill level. Combine to the fact that boosters charge a great deal for their "services" and you can see where the problem comes from.

Dextix LT1 votes

Wait wait wait. I used the first one too and then i compared it to the third one. Dude. That is a SIGNIFICANT increase in people in higher ranks! Across all ranks from gold there is an increase of players. How did you get a conclussion then that there are no significant changes? Those ARE significant changes.

Even if diamond 1 got up from 0.06 to 0.13. That is indeed huge for that division. You proved my point by providing the data, unless i am missing something? Because considering the numbers, those are significant margins.

  1. So basically, your solution is not being an equal team member, but being a bitch that has to adjust to the teammates. That is not good. You basically become the lackey of the team who has to do what his master wishes. When in soloes, all of you choose the leader due to meritocracy or do team decisions together.

That does weaken solo players, as it basically makes them servants of the premades. And you seem ok with that.

  1. It is a bit exaggerated (Everything is) but it is happening on larger scale. Again, look up stream boosters. They do it for free also, when previously, people didnt really do that for free, unlike now. And yes, after a certain point the teams will not be carriable. But how many games will they have to ruin after that to fall down?

They will ruin games when going up because they are getting carried by a significantly stronger player, thus fcking over enemies. And then they will ruin games when going down. Rince, repeat.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

About the data, Few things to note.

The third one is from march of 2013 where as the first 2 are from this year. More then 3 years have past between them. The only reason I used this one is that a more recent chart of season 5 wasn't done.

There are major differences in numbers in all the tiers.

Bronze 5 2013: 770,00 Bronze 5 2016: 1,639,702

Silver 5 2013: 403,025 Silver 5 2016: 1,137,913

The reason for this is because the newer list is all servers while the older one is NA exclusive. So of course the sample size for the latter would be smaller. To be frank, I really would like riot to be less stingy about this info, I like geeking about with statistics.

As for the 2nd one. I never suggested being submissive. I said to be wary of your team and play accordingly. If the premade wants you to go in on a suicidal charge, you decide if its worth it or not. Don't be a bitch, but don't be a jerk. Just do what you think needs to be done and be where you think you need to be.

As for the 3rd thing, it an't worth arguing. Its pretty much devolving into he said, she said. I don't really have any numbers and doubt you do either so how about we agree to disagree with this.

Dextix LT1 votes

Yea, the first point is hard to argue for both sides. But again, there is still increase. However, since that increase can again, be influenced by so many variables, it will be hard to discern any points. And at least in my belief, riot is stingy with info because it will give too many power to the players to call them out on their bullcrap.

  1. But again, thats making the solo less importnat than the group. Hes the odd man out. Again, they are at advantage and can make decisions, while yours will have to based on theirs for you to win.

  2. Aye, again, lack of information. But we can at least consider it as a possibility, and logically it would increase.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

4 man premade are really the only case where this applies and, its the only aspect of DQ I won't defend. It bugs me in any game where a premade group can make up the majority of a team but not the entirety.

5's got their own tier and 4s an't really worth supporting. I won't mind, I got 2 buddies not 3 :P.

Dextix LT1 votes

Trios are also bad, because then they still make up the majority of the group.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

Not really, They can't force a surrender vote, nor could they overturn a remake vote if one of them dc's.

Sneakyy XD3 votes

{quoted} The demand for soloq fine, but it frustrates me. What if we like playing with friends in a serious environment? Do you seriously expect the game to have massive improvements if you can't group? And why?

"Bring back soloq" is not a solution, it's a demand. Not an invalid demand mind you. But riot won't screw over their most profitable portion of players

How does solo queue existing hurt anyone?

"Bring back solo queue" may be a demand, but "bringing back solo queue" is the solution.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

I'll answer your question with two questions.

How is bringing back soloq a solution?

And what would be holding riot back from doing it? (And no, cheeky answers like "They're idiots" won't cut it. I'm speaking from a financial perspective.)

Sneakyy XD1 votes

{quoted}

I'll answer your question with two questions.

How is bringing back soloq a solution?

And what would be holding riot back from doing it? (And no, cheeky answers like "They're idiots" won't cut it. I'm speaking from a financial perspective.)

The problem is people are not able to play by themselves against and with other people playing by themselves. The only solution to this is solo queue.

I don't know why they don't do it, and I don't care.

Your questions did not answer my question. Can you please answer my question?

NotSpecialDude1 votes

Fair enough.

Solo queue isn't bad. The problem is that is kills queues with groups. I personally like to play with a buddy or two in ranked and I'm not the only one. To basically give us all the boot would hurt us.

As for the question you didn't care about, you should. Since it is the key to fixing the problem. If what you want is soloq you need to understand the reasons for riot not wanting to change it. Maybe they just don't see a massive problem with it, afterall only they can truly see the big picture. They don't know how many people would be upset with the change. Any business would hesitate when that is clear.

Sneakyy XD1 votes

{quoted} I personally like to play with a buddy or two in ranked and I'm not the only one. To basically give us all the boot would hurt us.

No one's trying to take away dynamic queue.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

Dynamic queue and solo cannot coexist. Dynamic would have horrendous queue times if only 2 and 3 can queue. And if solos can queue in both then whats the point the of having solo?

You get solo, I lose dynamic.

Sneakyy XD1 votes

{quoted}

Dynamic would have horrendous queue times

if only 2 and 3 can queue. And if solos can queue in both then whats the point the of having solo?

Prove it.

1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 would be able to queue for dynamic queue. Only 1 would be able to queue for solo queue.

Also, even if we assume your baseless claim is true, that means Riot would be fucking over far fewer people than they would be fucking over if both queues existed, or even if just solo queue existed.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

Possible team comps in DQ as it is now 1&4 2&3 1&1&3 1&1&1&2 2&2&1 3&2

Possible team comps in DQ if solo players buggered off. 2&3

I didn't include 5s cause they just got their own queue. Add role selection and it an't hard to imagine the queue times.

Also why do ANY players got to be screwed over? Can't we compromise? Do I deserve this?

the Anarchit3cht1 votes

I agree that people need to quit bitching but your posts kind of defeats your argument. All its proving is that solo players hate dynamic queue at large. And that given the option they wouldnt use it. You ask, "why do any players get to be screwed over?" But what you're really asking is "Why should I have to get screwed over instead of you?" What you don't realize is that if all the solo players would go back to solo, are they not currently being screwed over? Why is that okay, then? Because it doesn't affect you? Solo Q was the original, the majority of people learned to play in a solo environment. They should be able to do that. That being said, it doesn't seem like Riot is making that change anytime soon and I'm not faulting them for that. If it upset me so harshly, I'd simply stop playing.

NotSpecialDude1 votes

The thing is, I don't want anyone to be screwed. Yeah, I'm biased, I enjoy playing with my buddies and DQ allows the 3 of us to group up where before on of us had to be left out or we had to play normals which wasn't a serious as we'd like.

Its why I've been suggesting things like better detailed pings or reduced lp losses for solo players, because I don't want to have an enjoyable experience at the expense of anyone else's. I want the community as a whole to be better.

Cause I like league, its fun. And it should be fun for more people.

As for changes, I said this at the topic start but I'll say it again. (I like typing.) Riot changed the upper elo queues, which is a solid indicator that once the season is at its end, the queue as a whole will change.

Sneakyy XD1 votes

{quoted}

Possible team comps in DQ as it is now 1&4 2&3 1&1&3 1&1&1&2 2&2&1 3&2

Possible team comps in DQ if solo players buggered off. 2&3

I didn't include 5s cause they just got their own queue. Add role selection and it an't hard to imagine the queue times.

Also why do ANY players got to be screwed over? Can't we compromise? Do I deserve this?

The options would not change if solo queue came back.

I also don't want to fuck over anyone. That's why solo queue and dynamic queue must both exist.

Swiftdeath2evil2 votes

Beef it's what's for dinner.

Jbels1 votes

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/food-drink-vege-vegetarian-vegetarian_restaurant-restaurant-waiters-rnin144_low.jpg

rtbf2216514121 votes

Crying over DQ is like crying over having gotten a promotion.

Over a team game even.

I get it, solo queue can work with randoms. That isn't the point here.

I swear, the things people whine about...

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