Lee's back to a 47% win rate and people are still saying he needs nerfs;

I GANK LANES·Jan 19, 2017·4 votes·1,602 views

HA! Keep the damage nerf and give him some utility back so he has an identity late game. His AS slow should be brought back at a lower ratio than it was before, maybe half the values. So he's actually useful late game. Also giving him a small AD ratio on his shield, which in turn, would encourage him to build more AD which would make him squishier, and therefore easier to kill. Riot stop listening to the masses that keep telling you that Lee SIn is OP, because he's not and hasn't been for a very long time.

36 Comments

what you deserveJan 19, 20174 votes

He has a 47% winrate because he's difficult to play. He's still overpowered in the right hands. It was enough to get Nidalee gutted so I don't understand why it's not enough to get Lee gutted.

dunder killJan 19, 20175 votes

The Lee Sin QQ circlejerk is strong with this one

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin/diamond

Lee Sin 48% win rate in Diamond+

I GANK LANESJan 19, 20173 votes

lee sin is viable in the right hands, not OP

SEKAIJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nerf my Q,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehbXkuev,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-01-19T06:31:44.659+0000)

lee sin is viable in the right hands, not OP

Are you implying a significant portion of our entire player base is the "right hands", because last time I checked the vast majority of all of us are in and below Gold. And you need them supposed "right hands" to make him not OP or anything, but just "viable"?

The victim-playing and self-patting is real in this one.

I'm very sure the champ you've described isn't some champ you see virtually every 2 games or something, but someone you've NEVER seen.

The sole reason why Lee is played this much isn't because he needs "the right hands" to be "viable", but precisely because he's fking broken when in the right hands, while everyone and their dog are chasing the fame trying to become that pair of "right hands" simultaneously. And this also explains his lower win rate, due to massively inflated pick rate, which is still higher than a very significant portion of the champ base who aren't play ANYWHERE as much as Lee btw.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20172 votes

even after reading this completely delusional comment, I will repeat the comment made before

Lee Sin is not op, but viable in the right hands.

47% win rate is NOT OP

and where in this comment "lee sin is viable in the right hands, not OP" did you find victim-playing and self-patting from.

No where. you just wanted to use words you don't understand.

SEKAIJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=New Support Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehbXkuev,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T08:19:51.697+0000)

even after reading this completely delusional comment, I will repeat the comment made before

Lee Sin is not op, but viable in the right hands.

47% win rate is NOT OP

and where in this comment "lee sin is viable in the right hands, not OP" did you find victim-playing and self-patting from.

No where. you just wanted to use words you don't understand.

Do you even look at pick rate and other factors together, and analyse things logically for once?

Or do you just wave around that win rate just because it suits your particular closet of agenda, without even trying to justify it.

Tell me, why is <50% win rate automatically means "it's okay"? Who says that?

If I make a champion who destroys all enemy buildings in the game and wins the game automatically just by dragging games beyond the 40min mark, they probably wouldn't have a high win rate because games close way too fast these days, and the fact people will spam the living shit out of them which means lower win rate than they deserve is simply to be expected, but that doesn't make them any less broken.

Do you get it? Win rate is NOT the sole factor determining the state of a champion. Who's delusional?

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20171 votes

Apparently you, because you obviously dont know what Win rate means...

Veigar can wipe out an entire team under the right circumstances. but the poor fellow cant hardly push a turret to save his life... He is on the mage spectrum, one of the strongest burst champs in the game. Just because a champ is strong in what they ARE SUPPOSE TO SPECIALIZE in, does not make them OP, if they cant do anything beyond their specialization.

YOU are delusional because YOU are focusing on ONE aspect of LEE's KIT and are not focusing on him as a whole when in ADDITIONAL to this, IF a player has less than a 50% win rate and can get lots of Kills and KILLS are said champions specialty, then YES it is okay. 100% OKAY.

SEKAIJan 19, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=New Support Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehbXkuev,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T08:36:10.557+0000)

Apparently you, because you obviously dont know what Win rate means...

Veigar can wipe out an entire team under the right circumstances. but the poor fellow cant hardly push a turret to save his life... He is on the mage spectrum, one of the strongest burst champs in the game. Just because a champ is strong in what they ARE SUPPOSE TO SPECIALIZE in, does not make them OP, if they cant do anything beyond their specialization.

YOU are delusional because YOU are focusing on ONE aspect of LEE's KIT and are not focusing on him as a whole when in ADDITIONAL to this, IF a player has less than a 50% win rate and can lots of Kills and KILLS are said champions specialty, then YES it is okay. 100% OKAY.

First of all, Lee is not a specialist, he is a generalist who who has almost everything in their kid and who also for some reason by the virtue of existing, he outclasses many specialists in the game, some in those champs' own specialised fields. This is no news, it's been like this since the late S2. I mean, what does he "specialise" in? Murdering people regardless of who they are in early game? CC the entire enemy team? Extreme utility and mobility? All-a-around good tanking potential? Because a sucker who is good with most things and excel in some others is NOT balanced, even according to your own narrative just above.

Secondly, if you still have trouble understanding the very basics of statistics, win rate is skewed by pick rates. As the pick rate approaches 100%, the win rate will usually approach 50% (assuming the champ isn't just completely off the balance chart by an extreme margin); and as pick rate approaches 0, the win rate approaches either 0 or 100%. This is the fundamental limit alone, now we can discuss what happens when a champion is spammed or never played. When a champion is spammed, obviously by the logic of common sense we can easily deduce that only a small portion of that population actually knows and plays the champ adequately, which also means the win rate will drop down to lower than what they deserve; on the other hand, when a champion is very rarely played, because there are only 2 types of players sticking around, ie the long time fan/experienced players and the guy who's just trying out, hence the win rate would either be just outright garbage or that it would become higher than they deserve and sometimes unusually high. This briefly touches on and explains that Lee's 47% win rate is simply, EXPECTED.

This is just the basics, there is obviously far more to it that concerns item balancing and all that.

If you can only understand that "if win rate is lower than 50% it means it's weak as people can't win and lose at an equal rate", then it is you who don't know what's going on, not me.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20171 votes

First of all, Lee is not a specialist, he is a generalist who who has almost everything in their kid and who also for some reason by the virtue of existing, he outclasses many specialists in the game, some in those champs' own specialised fields. This is no news, it's been like this since the late S2. I mean, what does he "specialise" in? Murdering people regardless of who they are in early game? CC the entire enemy team? Extreme utility and mobility? All-a-around good tanking potential? Because a sucker who is good with most things and excel in some others is NOT balanced, even according to your own narrative just above.

Secondly, if you still have trouble understanding the very basics of statistics, win rate is skewed by pick rates. As the pick rate approaches 100%, the win rate will approaches 50%; and as pick rate approaches 0, the win rate approaches 100%. This is the fundamental limit alone, now we can discuss what happens when a champion is spammed or never played. When a champion is spammed, obviously by the logic of common sense we can easily deduce that only a small portion of that population actually knows and plays the champ adequately, which also means the win rate will drop down to lower than what they deserve; on the other hand, when a champion is very rarely played, because there are only 2 types of players sticking around, ie the long time fan/experienced players and the guy who's just trying out, hence the win rate would either be just outright garbage or that it would become higher than they deserve and sometimes unusually high. This briefly touches on and explains that Lee's 47% win rate is simply, EXPECTED.

This is just the basics, there is obviously far more to it that concerns item balancing and all that.

If you can only understand that "if win rate is lower than 50% it means it's weak as people can't win and lose at an equal rate", then it is you who don't know what's going on, not me.

If you had retorted with factual information, I would have reason to continue debating this with you, but since you didn't respond with even a single factual statement, and simply made up whatever sounded good at the time, I am going to let you live with your delusion, and continue to be unhappy with the Lee Sins of the Rift... Happy Hunting!

SEKAIJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=New Support Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehbXkuev,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T08:56:05.258+0000)

If you had retorted with factual information, I would have reason to continue debating this with you, but since you didn't respond with even a single factual statement, I am going to let you live with your delusion, and continue to be unhappy with the Lee Sins of the Rift... Happy Hunting!

The facts are on the table, high pick rate and 47% win rate. What else do you need when you can't even understand the bare basics of their interaction (and when explained to you, you just outright ignore it)? What use are the "facts" when you can't analyse them for what's going on or their implications at all? Do you just see something you like because the numbers look good to you for whatever reason, and you just say "yep, that's right"?

Typical run-away after a beatdown, I guess I shouldn't have expected more than that.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20171 votes

It's the fact that you falsely and naively believe that pick rate affects win rate at all. It doesn't.

So its not a "typical run-away from a beatdown"... it's it typical run-away from a delusional mad man, who will continue to believe in a preconceived notion, that I lack the ability to explain to you... You are welcome to stick around and wait for someone who can though.

I am NOT afraid to admit, that I dont have the tools to help you see reason... But I am most assuredly not afraid to tell you that even without said tools, I can tell you, you are wrong, and the core thought process driving said belief is additionally wrong.

SEKAIJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=New Support Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehbXkuev,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T09:03:26.220+0000)

It's the fact that you falsely and naively believe that pick rate affects win rate at all. It doesn't.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Thanks for confirming that you really don't know what's going on. Ask any guy who have at least completed/passed highschool math (though really middleschool math should suffice the basics, assuming they're given a couple examples to follow) and they will tell you.

Have a good day, sir.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20171 votes

You can try to belittle my ability to do logic, and to do statistical math if you want. That's okay, I don't really care what you think of my skills in those areas.

You are the one who is wrong, you are the one making up numbers, you are the one living in a delusion, and you are the one who is mad and upset over something that he is incorrect about to begin with. Not me. And you are the one going on an attack against me, and found this: "victim-playing" and "self-patting" worded or insinuated in this: lee sin is viable in the right hands, not OP.

I pity you.

LauchmelderJan 19, 20171 votes

No man, you're wrong here. High pickrate with a moderate winrate implies that he is on the stronger side of balanced.

Let's say it like this: You can't look at winrate on Champions like Lee Sin BECAUSE IT TAKES NOOBS INTO ACCOUNT TOO.

If you're talking about a mechanically challenging champion and his winrate then let's talk about people with at least 50 games on him.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20171 votes

Lolking (http://www.lolking.net/champions/leesin#/statistics) has Lee sin at below 40% performance rate at ALL tiers except master+ It isn't until Master+ that he shoots up to 48.33% win rate... So my point that pick rate (and now tier) are still not relevant, stands.

Lee Sin is NOT OP.

SEKAIJan 19, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=New Support Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehbXkuev,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-19T09:25:19.924+0000)

So my point that pick rate (and now tier) are still not relevant, stands.

Let's ignore Lee Sin, let's ignore this whole argument.

But focus on this 1 thing that you say pick rate is irrelevant to win rates. Because it does matter, refer to the explanations above.

You may like Lee Sin, I may hate Lee SIn, whatever, who cares. But one can't just up and ignore rationality and logic completely. That's no good, it's in fact very bad.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20171 votes

And getting "victim-playing" and "self-patting" out of "lee sin is viable in the right hands, not OP" is not?

Buddy, pretty sure that guys comment meant just the opposite as what you insinuated that it meant.

And you can believe pick rate changes win rate all day long. It doesn't change the fact that it does not. You can act like logic and rationality have anything to do with your delusion, when in fact the opposite is true.

SEKAIJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=New Support Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehbXkuev,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T11:41:04.580+0000)

And you can believe pick rate changes win rate all day long. It doesn't change the fact that it does not. You can act like logic and rationality have anything to do with your delusion, when in fact the opposite is true.

Please, go study some math or something.

LauchmelderJan 19, 20172 votes

No, KILLS are not what Lee Sin should go for. His whole goddamn kit is based around utility.

If you want kills and champions that specialize in getting kills you should play assassins.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20171 votes

I don't play Lee as a kill machine myself either... I play him with windspeakers as a tank support and focus on his utility and mobility myself... But EVERY other LEE I play against and with plays him as kill machine jungler. So despite the fact that you and I feel differently, I was referring to how THE PLAYER base uses him and views him.

dim2aJan 19, 20174 votes

His playrate is ~27% though, despite ~20% banrate which, by itself, I find problematic. The winrate will probably rise as some people who can no longer make him work well abandon him, but there are still a lot of people (more than any other champion probably) who make him work super well.

BluePolarizerJan 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

His playrate is ~27% though, despite ~20% banrate which, by itself, I find problematic. The winrate will probably rise as some people who can no longer make him work well abandon him, but there are still a lot of people (more than any other champion probably) who make him work super well.

But Lee is also played only by mains. He has the highest playerbase experience of all junglers. Those mains just spam games and inflate his pick rate.

I don't even play Lee either.

SEKAIJan 19, 20171 votes

EDIT: Got it wrong. My bad. I'm in a middle of a game. Soz, edited out.

dim2aJan 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But Lee is also played only by mains. He has the highest playerbase experience of all junglers. Those mains just spam games and inflate his pick rate.

I don't even play Lee either.

Perhaps, but regardless, it gets tiring to see Lee so very often. So if some of his mains abandon him, or only pick him situationally, yay! I'm fine with him having decently high pickrate. But ~27%? pls no.

DoktorKaiserJan 19, 20173 votes

Lee Sin players rot in hell :)

Denims Wrath666Jan 19, 20171 votes

ima just point this out, lee has ENERGY. by far the worst resource. there are no items to increase it, and the runes for it BARELY help at all. lets keep nerfing lee though right?

BeatzBoyFTWJan 19, 20172 votes

You mean the resource that regenrates like a fking bullet train by simply standing still? Also, it's not like he "doesn't have" a passive which make him regains energy.

Denims Wrath666Jan 19, 20171 votes

maybe you don't get it, so ill explain a little differently just cause it went completely over your head... if lee had MANA he could actually use cd to his advantage without being completely drained after a full rotation of abilities. he's quite nerfed just in that aspect of his kit. you CANNOT spam with lee, in comparison to mana/resourceless champs. energy is by far the WORST resource, as a jab to ninjas in general. it was a gimmic, when riot actually knew what was funny

BeatzBoyFTWJan 19, 20172 votes

And if he had mana resource just so he could build CDR to spam abilities, his damage numbers needs to be drastically reduced. Similar to the outcome of Yasuo if he had mana.

Aren't you glad that about 0 threads didn't even asked for a mana resource switch as a "nerf"? You've seen threads long ago about making Yasuo require mana, but I don't think there's even a single thread about it for Lee Sin.

Denims Wrath666Jan 19, 20171 votes

again, you missed my point.

GigglesOJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Denims Wrath666,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehbXkuev,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T07:52:15.920+0000)

maybe you don't get it, so ill explain a little differently just cause it went completely over your head... if lee had MANA he could actually use cd to his advantage without being completely drained after a full rotation of abilities. he's quite nerfed just in that aspect of his kit. you CANNOT spam with lee, in comparison to mana/resourceless champs. energy is by far the WORST resource, as a jab to ninjas in general. it was a gimmic, when riot actually knew what was funny

Unless hes like malphite with 282 mana level 1, and every skill worth casting costs atleast 60 mana...

5 spells and hes out of mana...

Level 18 he would get 15 spells before running out of mana...

I say let you run mana on him, and lets put 100 mana cost on ward hopping... 2-3 hops and any fighting, and you are done...

Denims Wrath666Jan 20, 20171 votes

LOL reply is priceless. 100 mana eh? now thats balanced KAPPA. completely justified and note worthy. ima point this out... notice how all the broken ass champs at the moment are kinda fun to play with and against anyways- lee included. anyone here thats whining about lee just is having a difficult time realizing the utility of movement speed. better nerf lee though, where his whole kit is based around landing the q, or wasting wards

A little PeepoJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Denims Wrath666,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehbXkuev,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-01-19T07:32:34.513+0000)

ima just point this out, lee has ENERGY. by far the worst resource. there are no items to increase it, and the runes for it BARELY help at all. lets keep nerfing lee though right?

You really think energy is the worst resource? I mean it makes sense why there aren't items that give you more because that would just be broken but energy refills pretty quick... you can be at 0 energy and in like 5 seconds you are back to full, if you are sitting at 0 mana u won't get to 100 mana in 5 seconds... even if you have Athenes... energy is a WAY better resource in lane but not so good in long fights. Also Lee just got nerfed once, I've seen worse nerfs (looking at azir) they both had the same win ratios, if Lee gets nerfed again it's going to be because of LCS

Denims Wrath666Jan 19, 20171 votes

its weird, i wanna blame lcs players for riot making the balance about their gameplay, but im more annoyed that the "less skilled" players are dictating the meta. its like... the trumps of lol are uniting, and its ruining the game.

A little PeepoJan 19, 20171 votes

Azir never really had a huge win rate and if anything his win rate was always below 50%, so with ryze and they both got gutted. Win rates don't always justify a champions strength nor are they a clear indicator to base facts on. I'm not saying Lee is OP because I've always thought he was just problematic early game and nothing more. If Lee got nerfed it's simply because of LCS, most balance if not all are based on their money maker events and the game simply gets changed because of that 0.0000001% population.

In the bright side for Lee mains out there riot clearly stated they won't be nerfing Lee any more because of his play making abilities (literally what was stated) imo Lee needs a rework rather than buffs because his kit is all over the place (looking at you sona) they really need to focus on what they want him to be, assassin, ad caster, tank, support, idk