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Just out of interest, why havent we had an HP Caster since Aatrox?

Over Innsmouth··18 votes·2,758 views

DrMundo Aatrox Vladimir Mordekaiser Zac

Aatrox was released in mid 2013, nearly four years ago. There's a lot of interesting design space that I think the Champ Design and/or Champ Update team could do with a health-based caster (considering some of the stuff they've produced recently it could also be great), especially around health-regain mechanics, but the only really interesting example of anything resembling that is Zac's health-cost/health-regen in using abilities and picking up bloblets.

Elsewhere, you've just got fairly outdated kits that could really all benefit from minor GUs to full VGUs, with heals that trigger either on damaging enemies (Vladimir, Aatrox, Mordekaiser) or just by pressing a button (Mundo). While they're fulfilling theme-wise, they're...lacking. They could be much more interesting, or at least feel more interesting to play with/against. But I'm getting distracted, this isnt what I'm here to talk about.

We havent had a HP Caster in over three years. Four of them are just variations of "tanky-magic-damage-dealer", and Aatrox is...well, Aatrox. There's differentation to be sure, but they all fulfill the role of a tanky frontliner, with varying amounts of mobility and utility. What I'm curious about - if not straight up asking/hoping for - is that we get more HP Casters, but that they're also wholly different from what we already have.

I want a HP Caster Assassin, a HP Caster ADC, a HP Caster Support. A HP Caster with no innate healing mechanics and instead is based around maximizing their own damage/utility as they slowly kill themselves, a self-destructive time-bomb. A HP Caster who uses their own life as a resource to lock down and ensnare foes at range.

Health as a resource is interesting, given that your ability to stay alive and your ability to perform are linked to the same resource. It changes the way you play, the way you think about making plays. I'm biased for sure, I love health-casting both as a gameplay mechanic and as a fantasy. I love the thrill of watching health bars shift with casting abilities, rather than just with taking damage. I adore the concept of barring yourself from using a certain ability not just because you don't want to push the wave, but because you don't want to slowly kill yourself doing so. I love being punished with a slash to my health bar for missing a Cleaver or messing up a cast of Tides of Blood, and in turn being rewarded for hitting those things with a drastic change to my enemies hp.

Just my thoughts.

TL;DR - Current HP Casters need visual/gameplay work across the board to varying degrees and are a bit same-y. I would love to see what Riot's current team(s) could do with trying their hand at different breeds/classes of HP Casters.

55 Comments

Mira Arya Enthe41 votes

Health as a resource either becomes neglible costs and basically resourceless. Or is overbearing and killing yourself. I never cared for it that much. Plus you need a way to rapidly regenerate said HP meaning you can become a drain tank when fed or overly susceptible to GW.

Not saying it cannot work. Just in general it has a lot of health issues so Riot avoids it.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

I'd personally like it if HP costs were more noticable, %hp costs are a good start, but they need to find a balance.

Ralanr7 votes

I think %HP costs were usually the problem more or less with HP builds since they punish you for building more of your primary casting resource.

At least that's my assumption when they turned Aatrox's %hp costs into flat HP costs like Mordekaiser.

Malicious Metal3 votes

Yeah, Mordekaiser's HP costs are pretty balanced as they're there to inhabit his early game to be too oppressive. Not to mention him relying more on a SHIELD than a heal to survive, meaning he isn't hard countered by GW's.

CannabisOverlord1 votes

I just max W and get Gunblade on Morde, and all of a sudden i can stay in lane till i decide i want to buy something/ stop killing my opponent every time he gets back to lane. Its honestly the way to go.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

I think %HP costs were usually the problem more or less with HP builds since they punish you for building more of your primary casting resource.

At least that's my assumption when they turned Aatrox's %hp costs into flat HP costs like Mordekaiser.

The only way I've seen that issue counterbalanced, is if the %HP cost spell, is paired with an %HP scaling. (As is the case with Vlad's Tides of Blood) But the issue with that is that you can become a "Juggermage" dealing an insane amount of damage just by building Health. Which is why you can't dial that lever up to 11.

As for flat HP costs, they are really designed to be more early game limiters. I think it would be fair to say a majority of those HP champs build for the mid to late game.

Lastly, even if they use the %hp cost as a deterrent for building lots of HP, (Like Soraka) there are still potential loop holes depending on how those spells are used. (Like say, Wormargs on Soraka)

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

%HP costs are super-problematic, because you can end up hurting yourself more than the enemy.

yesnobanana7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eTYpEYqf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-25T14:00:11.128+0000)

Just in general it has a lot of health issues so Riot avoids it.

upvoted for puns

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eTYpEYqf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-25T14:00:11.128+0000)

Health as a resource either becomes neglible costs and basically resourceless. Or is overbearing and killing yourself. I never cared for it that much. Plus you need a way to rapidly regenerate said HP meaning you can become a drain tank when fed or overly susceptible to GW.

Not saying it cannot work. Just in general it has a lot of health issues so Riot avoids it.

health issues. hehe.

Nahui9 votes

All of those up there besides Zac have all, at one point or another, been horridly broken due to sustain in the past. I like health casters, but health casting implies something else; a drain character. And those are very hard to balance. Sustain champs suffer from a sort of polarization, in that either they sustain too well and they break the game, since the entire meta isn't well equipped to deal with over-the-top sustain, or they don't sustain enough and they go into a fight and get nuked about the same as a regular character. Plus, some of the hardest counters to these champions are common place. Morello's and ignite, as well as mortal reminder which essentially guarantees a healing reduction per game as most adcs go last whisper.

I think it's about time they made some sort of drain tank if they're going to develop another health cost champion. Not like Mundo, he's not a drain tank, he's a regen tank. Something with percentage damage and healing based on that so we're not dealing with a vlad nuking half your health bar with an empowered Q and recovering like 1/4 of their health bar. Someone that scales off the number of people he's in combat with, but again that could be a problem since, once stacked with tanky resistances, could simply never die.

Health casting is cool, but produce some of the most infuriating experiences in League.

No one will forget early S4 Mundo..

Over Innsmouth1 votes

I mentioned they all need varying degrees of (V)GU. I agree with you, at some point or another they've been monsters, but it's not like they're the only ones who've had moments of overbearing overpoweredness, they're not unique in that. Just because we've had poor examples of a class doesnt mean we should suddenly stop trying to make good examples of the same class happen.

Health Casting could be really interesting if Riot took a look at it with their current resources and pulled together the skill they've shown lately in their designs, is basically what I'm saying.

And I want more HP Casters, I'm also saying that.

Nahui1 votes

Yeah, definitely not unique in it, but their problems tend to be more game breaking than a straight damage problem or a straight tanking problem.

VGUs will be nice though. Aatrox rework is coming up, Mundo may or may not since he's a meme champion. Morde and Vlad got theirs. Morde's is debatable by many, but vlad ended decently well. Zac obviously is about to get a bit of a rework.

Ralanr3 votes

Mordekaiser will be getting a VGU. He might get it after Urgot and Eve.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Mundo does need one but I personally don't want that to happen because I love how stupid he is. Mordekaiser does need a full one, since the rework failed at what it set out to do and he's more or less the same + ghost dragon. Vladimir's MYMU Update was a step in the right direction, but he needs more work and I desperately hope they give him the VGU he needs. I think Aatrox will get some formal work in the Diver Update, and yeah, Zac is being done right now.

Big Lincoln4 votes

HP using ADC wouldn't do any of that, they would just stack lifesteal

it's an ok mechanic but riot is probably hesitant because of how amazingly bad their current ones are in terms of design

Colgate Gator4 votes

Because they are problematic by nature.

Hell, they had to rework Aatrox just recently and they're still struggling to balance him, also Vlad has an awful reputation regarding kit design, and so on.

SEKAI3 votes

Aatrox is so bad he killed his franchise (the HP casters).

YoungSirJ0ey3 votes

Probably because they're almost never healthy. Mundo is cancer, Aatrox was a stat-check, Vlad was a stat-check, Morde is a stat-check, and Zac is basically the only one who didn't turn out awfully, but even he's being reworked.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

Zac isn't reworked for being unhealthy, though. They just thought that his fantasy of being the jolly jumping jelly could be better represented in the game.

They just have to figure out how to implement it in a healthy way. Zac was one example. And a problem with Aatrox was that he is a drain tank. But with Warwicks update they managed to design a healthy drain tank, too. So there is hope we will see more HP casters with fair gameplay in the future. ^^

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

I know Zac isn't being reworked for being unhealthy, I was just pointing it out.

Sire Hippington3 votes

Hp-casters is a very difficult area for balance. Just as Mira said, healthcosts are usually either pretty pointless, atleast after the first sustain item is bought(or hp incase of flat costs), or they are so huge that you basically kill yourself(prettymuch Aatrox's issue befor the mini rework) So healthcosts either work as some gateing early on(which isn't a bad thing and certainly could be considered for some manaless champs that are annoying to face in lane) or they create a binary scenario where you enter godmode when you can outsustain you costs with ease or just crumble as you explode as soon as you try to anything.

Silly Neeko1 votes

Another HP caster certainly could be interesting..... Happen to have any ideas for something that is not already pretty much in place by another champ?

An idea that has been going through my mind is like a blood clone kinda thing, you see a few different clone ideas......

  1. Leblanc's global does nothing clone, but it can cast another chain etc with another cast of ulti.
  2. Wukong's troll clone that lets him be next to be unkillable via Ashe arrow, Jinx rocket, Caitlyn's ace..... Pretty much any skill shot, etc.
  3. Shaco's explode a Shaco that can do either decent attack damage to you or when it dies it explodes and takes you with it.

But theres nothing like a blood puppet clone for possibly a passive.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Tryndamere would be cool with HP costs, but he needs a lot of other work too.

Silly Neeko1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eTYpEYqf,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-04-25T15:09:45.888+0000)

Tryndamere would be cool with HP costs, but he needs a lot of other work too.

Yeah he could be interesting with that, but its like with Olaf, his entire deal in lore is no matter how much damage he does to himself or he takes, it just spurs him more into a rage. Thus it makes sense that his E works for his health, and his W increases healing the lower hp you are and the passive is more att speed for lower hp% etc......

Im unsure of Tryndamere's lore persay...... But as another form of a berserker, he literally just sits on the brink of death and gets crit chance for doing so..... Which i can see more than if he was hurting himself, especially since he has a wife (ashe) and a tribe to look out for.

Olaf doesnt care, he just wants to find a foe worthy enough to send him to the after life..... From what i understand he does not have anyone back home really, and he looks like he is getting to that age that he wants to be able to die in battle rather than old age, so he is going out of his way to ensure it hopefully.....

Im just not sure if hp costs for tryndamere could fit in lore wise or game wise without a MAJOR update to both...... Like perhaps Ashe dumped him, although that would be silly as heck.

Thinking back to my post about the blood puppet thing, have any thoughts about that?

What i was thinking was like a permanent pet of sorts, I know Riot was playing with some "you appear as this ally champion" with items, i cant remember which game mode but its been a while....... But what if your passive (with a lvl 1 given ulti) can create a "blood clone" of an ally champion for a little bit.... That has reduced stats and a portion of the puppeteer's health..... Or something? If the clone gets damaged the puppeteer takes some damage, and if puppet is in combat the puppeteer is in combat (for warmog etc purposes, unlike Soraka's warmog perma healing)...... Would that be extremely over powered or could it potentially give a high skill (needing to dodge and kite with both puppet and puppeteer), but potentially interesting reward?

Not to put you in particular on the spot, i mean everyone can add input but yea

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Yeah, I'm with Nahui. I don't think you got distracted on the first bit; THAT'S the reason that we haven't had any new examples of HP casters (well, you did leave out Soraka, who is the HP caster support that I absolutely hate). They have this inherent feast/famine problem because they all need some kind of extreme HP regen to be healthy. And that either falls flat or becomes oppressive, based on how ahead/behind they are.

The exception to that is Zac, I would say. But even Zac feels pretty oppressively tanky when he's ahead and can heal for most of the damage you can deal to him.

It might have been interesting to take Talon in that direction. The reality of knife fighting is self-injury, frankly, and that could have been a cool theme to explore on an assassin. Again, though, he would need some kind of regen for that to work, and I'm not sure how healthy that could ever be on an assassin.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

You're completely right - that's why I pointed out the problems with our current HP Casters - but I think with appropriate work and a bit of tuning, they could be made...less cancerous, at least.

Most of what this thread is about is asking why Riot's teams - who are far more talented than when they were first doing these designs - havent tried their hand at another attempt for a HP Caster. I mean if we can get crazy shit like Kled and stupid shit like release Ekko, I don't see why a HP Caster is out of the question.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Well, it depends on your end goal in that case.

If your argument is "crazier shit has been released," then yeah, there's no reason not to do it again. But if your goal is to get a truly balanced HP caster that really adds something to the game, it becomes more complicated.

My suspicion is that they don't think a simple "HP caster assassin" (or whatever class/role) is unique enough to warrant a new champion. We already have the champs you mentioned that have that mechanic. Not only does that fantasy exist, but three of those champions are in precarious spots with regard to game balance and health (Morde, Aatrox, and Vlad are who I mean). I know you love Vlad, but he isn't without his problems in terms of overall game health.

It makes sense, then, that they would pause before adding another champ like that to the game. It's a neat idea, for sure, and it's why I sorta floated Talon as an idea here. I think that enhancing the flavor of a champ that has overlap with Zed makes more sense than adding another champ to the game when they aren't sure that mechanic is something they can support long-term.

To me, the recent Vlad and Aatrox mini-reworks seemed like tests (Morde's to a lesser extent. That was more about Juggernauts). They are trying to find a good balance for HP casters, and it's especially hard on damage dealers. Once they figure out what they have, I think the door opens again for new champs that have health costs. Until then, I'm not holding my breath.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

I know historically Riot hasnt had a good track record with HP Casters, that doesnt mean that will hold true if they tried again - is basically my point for this thread. I fully understand the caution and trepidation taken before doing so, since they are touchy as a class, but I believe it could be done.

We could've gotten something flawed but interesting by way of being another HP Caster attempt at least instead of the incredibly boring and same-y Irelia 2.0 Camille, for instance.

Vlad and Aatrox still need more work, I'm fairly adamant that Vladimir simply needs a full VGU, but not so desperately that he takes priority over Champs like Urgot and Evelynn, or Mordekaiser. Aatrox might be able to get everything he needs from just a Class Updates, but Class Updates are also shit 90% of the time and cause more problems than they fix. Mordekaiser's been confirmed for a VGU, we just don't know when.

My end goal is balancing HP Casters across the board - bear in mind that balancing them and making them enjoyable to play against are two different things. The core fantasy of HP Casters - especially HP Casters like Vladimir and Mundo who's primary themes also involve excessive self-healing in addition to the base health-regain already afforded to them as HP Casters - is generally not going to be enjoyable to play against, the concept of fighting someone who can regenerate their life from the get-go, that's just a fact, and people need to get over it. There's a separation of anti-fun and just unfun to play against.

If I were to balance them I'd probably look at their costs, alter them all for the purposes of orienting them towards lategame (most if not all of them already are anyway so that fits), and how they regenerate health, but there'd be an obscene amount of disagreement on what the latter would entail if I went into detail, and I hate starting fights, so I'll just leave it at that.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I generally think you have a firm handle on this. I agree with most of what you're saying. I think it's just a matter of resources on Riot's part. Like you said, it's perfectly reasonable for them to be cautious.

The only thing I think I disagree with is that these champs HAVE to be not fun to play against. I don't think there's a real separation between anti-fun and not fun to play against; I think of those as the same thing. Currently, I don't think these champs are toxic (I think ANY champ is tough to have fun against when they are fed), but I do think there's room for improvement.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

I'm not saying it's a requirement for them to be unfun to play against, I just think it's a byproduct of their core design. Playing against Champions who can keep healing themselves is frustrating, because it makes your efforts seem pointless. I do believe it can be possible to make a HP Caster that's fun to play against, but I think that's definitely harder to do than just making a HP Caster that isnt in danger of breaking the game every time a mechanic around healing is changed.

Someone like Karthus is a tonne of fun to play against for me because of how his Q works, the low CD skillshot AoE nature of the spell means you're always constantly on the move, but you can feel satisfied when you dodge it. Comparitively, Vladimir's main sustain and lane-trading tool is a point-click damage/heal, and I can't see any incarnation of Vladimir that doesnt include Transfusion in that state since it has to be reliable in order for him to function.

Unless they did to him what they did to Veigar's Q, where they give it the potential to be twice as strong when used correctly for the price of making it a skillshot, which would be terrifying.

Anti-fun to me is something like Fizz or Janna, where you have situations that the former combines denying your plays with significant damage (Fizz's Pole on its own does all that, whilst Vladimir's Pool only denies plays and has much higher costs and cooldowns) or the latter dedicates their entire existence to cockblocking everything you try to do to their team. There's an element of personal bias, and I don't think someone like Janna is in need of a rework (Fizz is a more vague case).

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Yeah, it's subjective, of course. But I think Fizz is MUCH more annoying than Vlad, for instance. Sustain doesn't bother me inherently; I do think it can be very feast or famine, though.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Likewise, but if Riot wants to make sustain fairer they need to start looking at how it's dealt with, not just how it's implemented.

Anti-statting with GW is possibly the worst idea they could have come up with for denying sustainers.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Don't get me started on GW, lol. Worst mechanic currently in the game.

That might have actually been a more intelligent comment for me to start with in this discussion. They can't balance these champs well while GW still exists.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

"Healing is overtuned because GW balances it but GW exists because healing is overtuned."

It's not even well implemented. It's just slashing away at stats with point-click interaction. It's also very easily obtainable for most of the roster by way of Morellos being overtuned as shit and Mortal Reminder being great in general for most ADs, and totally unobtainable for everyone else.

Toastersaot1 votes

I'm a Vladimir so I am very biased, but I think that the best idea is to remove Grievous Wounds as a mechanic and insert mechanics like Zac's blobs or Vladimir's Hemoplague healing. The new Hemoplague healing IMO was a great step in the right direction for sustain based champions, as Vladimir needs to play around the 4 second duration before the pop. Less point and click, a bit more skill expression.

Joseraph1 votes

This would make lifesteal champions like Jax, Yi, Fiora and ADCs ridiculous

Toastersaot1 votes

{quoted}

This would make lifesteal champions like Jax, Yi, Fiora and ADCs ridiculous

Lifesteal in general probably needs changes along with crit. Survivability-based on how much damage you deal to enemies sound a lot like a certain someone's passive Mordekaiser .

Gallows madness1 votes

hp adc will never be a thing but the others might

Snowplosion1 votes

Take a look at those champions. Only one of them don't have glaring problems with their kits. HP casters are extremely hard to design correctly, and are most often just pure cancer to play as or against.

DaNinad1 votes

Vayne HP casters you say...

General Esdeath 1 votes

"Since Aatrox"

There's your answer

macromite1 votes

Stil have dreams of a burst mage the utilizes it.

Like a super burst mage with low cooldowns, that just so happens to nearly kill themselves every combo. play them well and defeat all foes, play them poorly or get caught and just die instantly.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

You're describing basically Vlad without the healing aspects. Removing 60% of someone's HP with a single fully charged E is what I'd call burst.

macromite1 votes

Kinda like that yeah. without any safety nets at all though, no puddle no healing.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

That'd be fun. I wouldnt play it over Vladimir, but it could be really cool.

SociopathFriend1 votes

I might try making an Aatrox rework concept soon- I feel like he could have a sort of Warmonger kit- only problem is I 100% would take away his resurrection innate regardless of how iconic it is.

TheDevice1 votes

I don't claim to know the answer to the issues surrounding health based costs but if i were to guess I'd say the "caster" part of the descritpion is the most important part. The only champions who's really failed hard by the health/cost mechanic is Aatrox. The reason is because he is not a pure caster but an auto-attack fighter / drain sustainer.

Morde has plenty of burst/shield to offset the health costs in a fight and is not as glassy as Aatrox. This makes cc less hurtful to his gameplay Mundo doesn't even rely on requring to hit and enemy to sustain. All he has to do is ult and rely on his tankyness. Vlad is also quite tanke (built-in) and is a pure caster with added built-in escapes. Zac. Again, tanky with an enormous amount of cc of his own. He's also not aa-reliant.

I just never really liked the fact that they tried so hard to mirror Tryndamere's gameplay considering he already had so much going on in his kit which inevitably made him spread out too thin to be effective.

Aatrox should be more arcade style and less right click heavy if he's going to retain any of that drain theme. More caster and less auto attacker.

ThatHaleState1 votes

Because it can be inherently hard to balance

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