Can we Please address the ADC diversity?

TheRakkun·Mar 24, 2015·11 votes·2,719 views

Now that jungle diversity has improved, I'd like to call our attention to the next least diverse role: ADC's. Now as you can generally there's a bit of a holy quad of ADC's.

In my honest opinion: Need nerfs.

Are fine, mostly, little tweaks here and there, but their problem is mostly a case of being outclassed by the quad.

(Fills in a Bruiser role, but his ADC needs buffing) (Dear god twitch, poor Twitch, a shadow of your former self.) (Fills In a Bruiser role, but her ADC needs buffing) (Yes, I feel she needs some buffs here and there, but less so than the others.)

Need buffs, some more than others. While I know that some of their kits can be toxic e.g. ( Huehuehue toxic get it?) having them like this is NOT the way to go...

51 Comments

TeemoJenkinsMar 24, 20156 votes

Six months ago - no one played Graves or Sivir. Nothing changed... they are just back in rotation again. Jinx is squishy as hell, you pick a Leona support into her and just jump on her face and she's done. Kalista... again, pick an engage heavy support and wreck her. The reason Siv and Graves are heavy picks right now is they both do well against Jinx and Kalista.

ChargeItDownMidMar 24, 20153 votes

[deleted]

TeemoJenkinsMar 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Six months ago we were playing on another season. Yet "nothing" changed?

What buffs did Graves and Sivir get in the last six months? Link the patch notes please.

Skia AsteriMar 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

What buffs did Graves and Sivir get in the last six months? Link the patch notes please.

To save some time, Sivir was buffed last in 4.15 (seven months ago), and Graves was buffed last in 4.13 (eight months ago).

In the case of Graves, until more recently he was not picked for being too similar Lucian , but worse than him at the time.

Sightless66Mar 24, 20152 votes

Six months ago - no one played Graves or Sivir. Nothing changed.

Lucian got nerfed, and he was the better Graves, so no one played Graves. Now, Graves is the better Lucian, and Lucian isn't picked. That is something that changed. The nerfs to other AD carries brought both of them into the light, although them being buffed about 7-8 months ago helped.

Rinky DinkyMar 25, 20151 votes

Wrong.

Lucian is picked.

They do two different things fundamentally.

Sightless66Mar 25, 20152 votes

Lucian has seen minimal pro play since Graves took over his role. He's been effectively replaced.

They are both short range bursters with good immediate mobility and a strong midgame. Those are the most important things about both of them. There are differentiating traits, but they don't make up for any power difference between them. Whichever is stronger, by even a small amount, will see significant play while the other won't.

Rinky DinkyMar 25, 20152 votes

In the past week, for NA lcs, Lucian and Graves have the same pickrate.

In EU, Graves is picked slightly more.

In KR, Lucian is picked slightly more.

Lucian and Graves are different champions. If they weren't, Lucian would not be picked at all. That is a fact.

Graves has more burst, longer auto range, tankier, has to get very close to get the most out of his burst, and has more aoe

Lucian has more mobility, less burst, lower auto range, better poke, more long range abilties, less aoe, squishier but is more versatile.

Very different champions if you look at the kits, both are seeing almost equal success in pro play.

OmiwomMar 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Six months ago - no one played Graves or Sivir. Nothing changed... they are just back in rotation again. Jinx is squishy as hell, you pick a Leona support into her and just jump on her face and she's done. Kalista... again, pick an engage heavy support and wreck her. The reason Siv and Graves are heavy picks right now is they both do well against Jinx and Kalista.

Six months ago people only played Corki Trist and Lucian

TeemoJenkinsMar 24, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Six months ago people only played Corki Trist and Lucian

^ This - ADC flavors change every few months and it's a constant cycle of who's OP and who's UP.

Sona PingMar 25, 20151 votes

Sorry, but simply saying that is leaving out so much it's to the point of misinformation. Lucian had been heavily retuned down over multiple patches and Tristana was reworked which is generally considered to have changed and reduced her effectiveness.

I don't believe that the ADC pool is shallow like the OP said but you can't just gloss over the fact they were nerfed and pass over it like it was a change on a collective whim.

LoLKiruMar 24, 20156 votes

I'd argue that AD carries are the most balanced class of champions by far (given that only 1 or 2 of them are truly overtuned)

Important to note Koggles is still AMAZING at what he does (he scales into a vulnerable lategame hypercarry and is then one of, if not the strongest adc in the game), he's always needed the right team to preform well, but when he does preform properly; nothing can stand in his way.

Kalista is probably the only ADC I'd consider overly strong, every other ADC has their strong points and weaknesses.

Edit: As another poster pointed out, Graves and Sivir while strong on their own, are mostly picked because they do well against the other popular picks; whats "good" changes with the meta. Wouldn't be surprised to see Koggles, Varus, Vayne and maybe Trist make a comeback with the tank meta becoming stronger.

Troy242621Mar 25, 20155 votes

I NEVER say this because it goes against everything I believe in pertaining to balance philosophy, but, f***ing gut Kalista like a trout. She shouldn't exist and that's the closest we can get to disabling her until her inevitable rework.

There, I said it.

SouL1essMar 25, 20151 votes

but, f*ing gut Kalista like a trout

I will pay to see it live.

(This is for all Kalistas who binds me just so you can ruin my positioning completely)

Kitten of EvilMar 24, 20153 votes

The interesting thing here is, I think you ask 10 people and you'd get 10 different lists. For example, on your list I'd place Ez lower, Varus and Kog higher, and I'd remove Urgot and Quinn altogether (they're top-laners now)... You also entirely forgot to include Caitlyn anywhere in your list, and while she isn't god-tier, she's a decent safe pick.

But as people have pointed out, the meta shifts and that's what changes ADCs. Back in the days of Bloodthirster rush, Varus and Cait were much stronger, since they both have long-range poke that scales on flat AD but doesn't benefit from AS. Now the meta is rushing IE and then building attack speed

I Kill CommiesMar 24, 20153 votes

Graves needs nerfs? Lmao, I remember when sneaky picked graves at worlds and everyone lost their minds because we hadn't seen a graves pick in so long, everyone said he was trash before that. Graves hasn't been changed at all and now you're demanding nerfs just because he is popular.

BeersteinMar 24, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=C9 MonkeyD Luffy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eFmm1GXi,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-03-24T22:14:31.113+0000)

Graves needs nerfs? Lmao, I remember when sneaky picked graves at worlds and everyone lost their minds because we hadn't seen a graves pick in so long, everyone said he was trash before that. Graves hasn't been changed at all and now you're demanding nerfs just because he is popular.

This, he was also super popular before. He still has the same weaknesses he had and will likely taper off over time again.

DoogmiMar 24, 20151 votes

They buffed his ultimate and q, they did change him.

ActuallyArrowMar 24, 20153 votes

I really don't feel Graves needs a nerf. He feels balanced to me.

SmokingPuffinMar 25, 20153 votes

The basic problem with ADC is that the role is super mathy. Too many ADCs are quite similar in terms of kit, which means that only one of them will see play unless that archetype of ADC is just dominating. For example, Lucian and Graves are basically the same guy.

For this reason, buffs and nerfs don't tend to increase diversity in the role. We know how to swap Lucian out and Graves in, but not how to make both good. Probably the right thing to do is to push the ADCs with differing playstyles -- you can clearly see them doing this with Sivir, Jinx, and Kalista, and there's room to continue that strategy with stuff like Varus, Twitch, and Miss Fortune. That gives us the best hope of having a reasonably broad selection of viable picks and diversity of strategy.

BeersteinMar 24, 20152 votes

I don't think any ADCs are overly strong right now other than Kalista.

MF would be fine if they remove the cast delay on her E.

I don't want twitch to be strong because of his stealth. A niche player can still be good with a lot of practice and that has to be enough for a champion with stealth.

I honestly don't see what's so bad about Varus.

Quinn is a fine bruiser, as Riot already mentioned when champion roles flux in the meta they don't want to jump the gun and change them, if they still work they still work. With her range, mobility and burst she's perfect in the top lane.

I admittedly don't know jack about Urgot but if he works as a bruiser then I don't see the issue.

I think Trist is actually a little bit weak in the current meta.

Oh and kog is perfectly fine he just needs a proper team around him as he always has. He still even gets played at top levels.

Call Me KhalMar 24, 20152 votes

Only Quinn and Twitch need buffs. Every other ADC can competently carry a game.

Rinky DinkyMar 25, 20153 votes

Miss fortune needs more buffs than twitch.

Alot more.

JevokanMar 25, 20152 votes

I think MF is the most broken seeing as her spells either scale off AD or AP making her hard to build optimally. The rest seem fine in comparison.

Aside from that, most of the ADCs build exactly the same which for me is boring. I like trying different builds. That's why I like Hecarim so much. I can build him tanky, I can build him pure damage, I can max his speed, I can go for tons of HP, stuff like that.

With an ADC its always the same thing otherwise you suck.

BlackRavenMar 25, 20152 votes

i posted this like 3 days ago and got downvoted to hell. you post the same thing in concept, upvotes. boards is a really interesting place to be in.

Athenes LuluMar 25, 20152 votes

Kalista The Lee Sin of ADCs. No matter how balanced she appears, the community will forever hate her for being extremely mobile and her overloaded kit. Unless she gets a MASSIVE rework, people will still hate her.

Jinx Pick one. Lane bully, or hypercarry. Not both, please. But since she's better off as the latter, her laning phase just need a little tuning. Increased mana costs for rockets or zapper? Graves He's more of "that one adc who became popular because x was nerfed". And in this case, it was Lucian that was "gutted". (remember hearing people saying that "Graves is a worse version of Lucian" long ago?) He doesn't really need much tuning, especially since the tank meta is on the rise once again. Sivir Kinda like Grave's case, so not much change is necessary. Also, since there's a way to work around with dealing with her...

{quoted}

Are fine, mostly, little tweaks here and there, but their problem is mostly a case of being outclassed by the quad.

Pretty much.

Interesting on how you forgot Caitlyn , but she's actually been fine. Long range lane bully? That's her core identity, there's not much anyone can do about it. She doesn't need changes.

KogMaw , MissFortune , and Varus are really, just outclassed because of the mobility meta. Maybe once the tank meta completely returns, and/or if they were picked in the LCS and won, then they'll most likely make a return. Some tuning may be necessary though.

Quinn still needs a couple of bugfixes, but as of now she's limited to legit Quinn mains. Even so, she's more of a lane bully in general, but just can't carry games even if she can snowball. Small buffs/tweaks? Most definitely.

Twitch Ah, poor little rat, once upon a time he was my favorite adc to lane with because results area always interesting when I work with one. I don't know why he was nerfed in the first place... just because he was a popular pick? Oh come on, Rito, you never learn, dontcha? If his recent nerfs were reverted, that would probably put him back into a better spot.

Urgot Is he even considered an ADC? I guess if you consider Teemo as one, then I guess...

Also, fun fact: As a Lulu support main, MF is actually the adc that I have the highest winrate with. Maybe it's because of the small sample size, and/or that the MFs I see are people that actually know what they're doing. But again, winrates don't matter... or do they?

Just my 2 cents.

Painted CeltMar 25, 20151 votes

+1 I can't help but notice that we agree on almost every point brought up. We even recommended the same slight nerf to Jinx's Zap! mana cost.

AtheliousMar 24, 20151 votes

If anything the lane with the most diversity is bot lane 12 out of the 16 champions that you listed are still viable in the adc role as compared to what the jungle used to be (before cinderhulk), i think you guys are fine.

ofartMar 24, 20151 votes

I think only Jinx and possibly Graves are too strong. Sivir is completely fine and opens up viability for some other interesting comps due to her ult. (Xin, Olaf etc.). Her range is quite low and she doesn't scale as well in terms of damage as the rest.

Twitch is almost where he needs to be but needs one more small push.

Kog's not particularly strong but the meta is shifting in his favor a bit since there are more tanks. He's a bit too slow and cooldown/mana gated though. Even without having % HP etc. a Jinx or Graves takes down tanks fairly fast. I don't think the compromise with Kog is worth it unless you get him a lot of shields or other protection.

Urgot will be reworked.

Varus seems like a worse Draven in the sense that he's a lane bully but doesn't scale as well. I haven't been that successful with him. I suspect he needs only a tiny buff though.

Quinn is actually OK imo. She's just more of a top lane bully/assassin than traditional ADC.

MF is good in low ELO but then seems far less attractive. Her mixed damage scales poorly and her range is short. The passive is nice but shouldn't matter too much in teamfights unless the enemies have literally no one who can dive you. Vs a proper team comp., there are way better ADCs. Her W was strong when lifesteal was the default start path for ADCs. Now she's just a bit lackluster. Even for the way her power curve is designed, her late game is a bit too weak.

More here.

TTUPhoenixMar 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think only Jinx and possibly Graves are too strong. Sivir is completely fine and opens up viability for some other interesting comps due to her ult. (Xin, Olaf etc.). Her range is quite low and she doesn't scale as well in terms of damage as the rest.

Twitch is almost where he needs to be but needs one more small push.

Kog's not particularly strong but the meta is shifting in his favor a bit since there are more tanks. He's a bit too slow and cooldown/mana gated though. Even without having % HP etc. a Jinx or Graves takes down tanks fairly fast. I don't think the compromise with Kog is worth it unless you get him a lot of shields or other protection.

Urgot will be reworked.

Varus seems like a worse Draven in the sense that he's a lane bully but doesn't scale as well. I haven't been that successful with him. I suspect he needs only a tiny buff though.

Quinn is actually OK imo. She's just more of a top lane bully/assassin than traditional ADC.

MF is good in low ELO but then seems far less attractive. Her mixed damage scales poorly and her range is short. The passive is nice but shouldn't matter too much in teamfights unless the enemies have literally no one who can dive you. Vs a proper team comp., there are way better ADCs. Her W was strong when lifesteal was the default start path for ADCs. Now she's just a bit lackluster. Even for the way her power curve is designed, her late game is a bit too weak.

More here.

As someone who only plays Sivir ADC (I don't ADC much) I agree. I don't think Sivir is really in need of nerfs. She's got a number of weaknesses - non damaging ult, less effective single target damage, defense/escape heavily reliant on spell shield, runs out of mana easily - but she simply brings something different to the table than other ADCs. She offers great AOE damage and utility, which is different from a lot of traditional ADCs, but not necessarily better (for one thing, she's much more focused on team fighting than duels).

metaworldpeace10Mar 24, 20151 votes

What's happened in the ADC role is what has happened in the top lane. The top 3 choices are overbearing, they get nerfed, then 3 new champions take the spotlight. ADC's have a similar issue. I wouldn't mind seeing slight nerfs towards Kalista/Jinx and buff the rest of the ADC's to a healthy level. Right now Jinx has a pretty easy laning phase for how much she scales into the late game. Kalista pays little to nothing for her mobility, which in turn hurts champions like Varus/Ashe/MF/Twitch. The ADC role is closer to balance now than it was during Season 3 Vayne and Season 4 Lucian spam.

YossarianSenseiMar 24, 20151 votes

Jinx need motherfkin Nerfs

But honestly the strongest part about Graves is how smooth his kit is. His auto attack fires almost instantly allowing him to kite very well, and you can spell-weave incredibly fast with him.

Nucleophilic atkMar 24, 20151 votes

I think there is a lot of diversity. That being said, the things you said are not all false. I think Graves needs nerfed. I have played him a total of like 4 games and am doing well with him. The first game I played with him, he was really easy. Shouldn't be able to pick up a champ and play with him that well for the first time ever in PvP. Kalista most def needs nerfed. She just has way too much power. Not sure about the others though. I think Ashe's passive needs fixed. I agree with the buffs.

usul1202Mar 24, 20151 votes

The day that riot buffs/fixes Quinn will probably be the same day that Yorick gets a new skin.

COWmanLordMar 24, 20151 votes

The thing about adc that I have noticed over the few years I have been playing is that even though there are never a huge amount of adcs being played at any one time, the meta picks for adc always rotate around much faster than the other roles as different champs get buffs and nerfs.

LavanielMar 25, 20151 votes

AoE crit rockets OP. No really, anyone gets hit by the crit of the rockets, not just the guy being targeted. I hate Jinx. Really hate her. She ruined bot lane for me.

EnkidusmurfMar 25, 20151 votes

Honestly, I think Graves Sivir are in an okay spot right now. Before anything else, Jinx needs visuals that actually match her hitboxes. It's annoying to be completely alone in lane, dodge Supermegadeathrocket, and still die because it exploded on me anyway.

Kalista . . . I don't even know.

Draven Tristana Corki Lucian are fine. Corki's strong, yeah, but not oppressive.

Ezreal is a niche pick, but strong enough, I think. Almost more of a mid-laner.

Ashe MissFortune Twitch probably need some tweaks.

Varus KogMaw are super freaking strong, dude. I don't know what you're talking about.

Urgot is on his way back, but I think his meta role has shifted. He was always kind of an anti-carry AD caster. His recent buff helps him there, but it also makes him more playable top.

Quinn has the potential to be really strong, but she's just so buggy. If they'd clean her up a bit, she'd see a good bit of play. (And we finally see some movement on that front! THANK YOU RITO 5.6!) Maybe give Valor a passive, and she's fine.

Vayne might actually be OP. Her W is kinda ridiculous. I mean, it does true damage. That's fine. You stack health, right? NO! It does %health true damage! Literally impossible to itemize against. The rest of her kit, though . . . she might be balanced.

Painted CeltMar 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Now that jungle diversity has improved, I'd like to call our attention to the next least diverse role: ADC's. Now as you can generally there's a bit of a holy quad of ADC's.

In my honest opinion: Need nerfs.

Graves I think Graves is fine and will be falling out of favor as tanks are becoming popular again. I don't think he should be nerfed. Jinx I think Jinx is very close to balance but could maybe use some little nudges to weaken her laning considering how strong her teamfighting is. A really slight nerf (increase mana cost by 10 or so at all levels?) on Zap! would probably put her in a good place. Kalista I feel like Riot should task a developer with continually experimenting with Kalista's kit until the community can agree that she isn't as frustrating anymore... I feel like the community isn't going to like her even if she is balanced or even underpowered number-wise... Sivir I think Sivir is in the same boat as Graves and will likely shift out of the meta fairly soon. I feel like she has well defined weaknesses and does not need any nerfs.

Are fine, mostly, little tweaks here and there, but their problem is mostly a case of being outclassed by the quad.

I agree that these are fine. I expect Vayne will become top tier as health stacking tanks become more common. Ashe could maybe use some utility buffs to make sure that she stays as THE utility ADC (Kalista feels like she is currently infringing on that turf). I am a fan of Ashe support though, so I may be biased in that regard.

(Fills in a Bruiser role, but his ADC needs buffing) (Dear god twitch, poor Twitch, a shadow of your former self.) (Fills In a Bruiser role, but her ADC needs buffing) (Yes, I feel she needs some buffs here and there, but less so than the others.) Need buffs, some more than others.

Maybe some of these could be slightly buffed.
I think Riot should closely watch KogMaw Kog'Maw and Varus Varus. Those two should be doing well in a tank meta so if they don't start to rise in popularity, it should be taken as a sign that they may be undertuned.
Twitch Twitch just needs some nerfs reversed... I felt like he was balanced before his last round of nerfs... Quinn I heard that Riot is making fixing Quinn's many bugs a priority. Hopefully, that should help put her in a good spot. Balancing her is tricky though since she can be a really dominant top-laner; the same goes for Urgot Urgot. I'm not sure those two can/should be safely balanced around their performance as bot lane marksmen.

A Miss FortuneMar 25, 20151 votes

As an ADC main, there is not diversity at all in the ADC category.

You can basically guess who you're up against, especially in ranked games. I actually do main Miss Fortune and have excelled at her, getting my first ever pentakill with her (Without using my ultimate) and recently going 20/0 in the last game I played with her. Miss Fortune is extremely strong though I feel like her passive or W could be slightly edited just to make her not necessarily stronger but more updated for this season.

In terms of other ADCs, Ashe, Tristana, and Vayne are in a good spot. Though Lucian, Ezreal, and Draven do far too much damage and can easily out trade anyone as an ADC for an ADC. I however have to defend Ezreal due to him having all skillshots and Draven also not being the easiest champion to play. Lucian is really counter fun to play against and can poke you far behind minion waves with a dash and just simply isn't fun to play against, same for Ezreal and Draven. It makes the lane feel like farming and dodging annoying poke.

I think simply by decreasing Ezreal's Q damage, Draven's damage with his axes, and Lucian's ability to poke you so easily behind minions will balance those 3. It's just because they can do so much damage while auto attacking basically immediately after, each of those abilities doing considerable damage to squishy ADCs.

I know the Ezreal, Draven, and Lucian mains will hate me for saying that and use biased information to describe how their ADC isn't broken at all though I think it's pretty accurate.

KogMaw : Needs better early game damage

Varus : Just needs rework for his entire kit in general ,he doesn't even feel like an archer

Twitch : Needs his Q and W looked at, and maybe like 3 damage increase on his passive

Quinn : She's really powerful and doesn't need a buff, but her bugs prevent her from literally being overpowered

TheI3igDaddyMar 25, 20151 votes

Graves isn't OP :/

He never saw play for the later half of Season 4 because Lucian did everything he could do but better, because Riot took their sweet time actually balancing him.

TheRakkunMar 25, 20151 votes

Not saying it's because he's OP, i'm saying it because he's popular, I want to see more people play other ADC's and to do that you need to level the playing field, either through buffs or nerfs.

Only Play DariusMar 25, 20151 votes

Draven got a new passive shortly after release because it wasn't fun to play against, and we can all agree he is in an overall better spot as a result.

There is no excuse for Kalista .

Chromatic EagleMar 25, 20151 votes

I don't think Sivir changed in anyway. I thought it was her comp that changed. At most, do something to her ult, because that's the main reason she's picked. Then again, I'm biased.

Rinky DinkyMar 25, 20151 votes

The ADC role is fine.

StephenizgodMar 25, 20151 votes

Its just a rotation of popular picks is all, Graves and Sivir are counter picks to Jinx and Kalista. Soon it will be Graves, Sivir, and whatever ADC's are found to perform good against those two. They didnt really receive any buffs to make them popular so they dont really need any nerfs. In Graves case it was because Lucian was nerfed, originally Lucian was the better Graves but now its the opposite.

In a few weeks, maybe a month or two, new ADC's will be the meta.

NagirahMar 25, 20151 votes

Only ADC that needs nerfs is Kalista. Rest is fine honestly, only reason they're popular is that the other adcs are not good enough.

williana12Mar 25, 20151 votes

I think adcs are fine. Graves is a lane bully because of his burst, dash that can be used to engage and disengage, his true grit passive that gives him highest defensive stats. His range keeps him in check. Jinx is fine the way she is. She can be bullied out of lane very easily by caitlyn, tristana, and graves and she can be assassinated so quickly because of her lack of escapes and it is harder to land zap and chompers than to use dash to escape. Her saving grace is her late game but if shes behind, she's useless in fights because she needs time to rev-up. Hypercarries are like that, if you shut them down, they are toast.

Nameless VoiceMar 25, 20151 votes

I actually think it's the most balanced role with the most diversity. I've seen almost every ADC played and do okay in low Platinum.

Kalista is toxic and shouldn't exist. Quinn needs her bugs fixed (promised for 5.7 already.) Urgot isn't really an ADC. Twitch, MF and Varus could do with minor buffs, but they're not that terrible.