Riot, please explain to me how Tryndamere is good for this game.

InsaneSamurai·Sep 29, 2014·3 votes·1,507 views

His skillset is toxic and de-promotes teamwork. Why does he exist?

34 Comments

OnegarionSep 29, 20143 votes

1 question How?

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20141 votes

So you're the kind of person who downvotes this. Thanks for trying to prevent someone from asking a legit question because you like being Tryndamere.

OnegarionSep 29, 20142 votes

What? I didn't downvote anything and I don't play tryndamere. You came here saying he is bad and terrible for league, but provide no sort of evidence and only a complaint. I asked you a question so you can actually get some discussion going instead of a simple complaint thread about a champ you lost to.

Get your head out of your ass and answer the question as to how he is bad and doesn't promote teamwork or stop complaining and assuming.

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20141 votes

Anything I use as proof will be instead used as argument fuel by some random tryn player. I'm not asking random tryn players, I'm asking Riot :) And if you actually didn't downvote this, I'm sorry, but the timing was pretty close for your post and whoever did. Also, probably don't tell people to get their head out of their ass for coming to a logical conclusion on something.

OnegarionSep 29, 20142 votes

Well you have no logical conclusion. You only have an assumption. So if you have some sort of logical conclusion then we can talk, but right now its just a complaint. You have no proof or anything.

Why does it matter what a random tryn player says? Why not bring forth proof so players out there who aren't tryn only players can chime in on your points? You need to present a discussion in order to have one.

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20141 votes

It doesn't matter what a random Tryn says, which is why I'm not trying to start another argument with one. I'd like to know how Riot thinks Tryndamere's existence is good for League of Legends. That's all.

OnegarionSep 29, 20142 votes

Then you've got to present a reason for Riot to comment. What reason do they have to comment? Compelling reason? No. Good evidence? No. Calculated Math? No. They see your comment the same as me. Its nothing more than a complaining player who got dumbstered by a tryn or doesn't know how to beat him.

There is nothing about this thread that makes anyone really come here to discuss anything or explain anything. You give them nothing in terms of stimulation for a discussion. You simply make a faceless claim with no facts, statistics, or information. Its an opinion at its simplest form and there is no feedback to be given at all.

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20141 votes

The thing is, making long posts with reasons gets just as ignored(or moreso) as this does. I'll just keep asking it from time to time until I get a decent answer instead of writing out long messages just to argue with one random tryn player.

OnegarionSep 29, 20142 votes

THen you will never get an answer from riot and no healthy discussion. You will only get people like me asking for reasons to care or to listen to you when you have no evidence or proof to back you up

Lumus AvatarSep 29, 20142 votes

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and you have placed upon yourself the burden of proof.

bunsenhoneydew77Sep 29, 20142 votes

You should offer a suggestion to balance him

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20141 votes

Full rework like Sion :)

LneacxSep 29, 20141 votes

Well, you can't exactly make him un-exist. So there's that.

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20141 votes

Wouldn't that be nice though :D

Imperial RedSep 30, 20141 votes

No. It wouldn't. And you haven't said anything here that would even get him looked at for a rework. He still works, there's nothing wrong with him, and just because a few people don't like to be team players doesn't mean shit. They would do that no matter what champ they play because they're just not good people.

InsaneSamuraiSep 30, 20141 votes

For all the same reasons they reworked Sion, plus the whole teamwork thing.

ValyrianBladeSep 29, 20141 votes

I don't see how he "Depromotes teamwork" but there is nothing less fun than bringing your enemy to 0 health and subsequently being unable to kill him for 6 seconds while he gains huge damage due to low health, can heal immediately after due to getting full rage, and he can use the ability even if cc'd. That said, it is very satisfying when you kite him, ignite him, then walk away and see him die a few seconds later.

frankly, I hate tryndamere, but I'm not sure he's unbalanced. He's one of those champions that a good player can use to take a huge advantage against an unsuspecting opponent because he snowballs well and less experienced or less skilled players can't deal with him. my first game against aatrox was equally frustrating, killed him twice by pulling him in to my turret only to see him magically revive while a teammate stepped in to kill me/take turret shots to save him. Some champions really need a warning before you play them :p

OnegarionSep 29, 20141 votes

If you don't like that just wait till Sion comes out. His passive lets him live with a full health bar that drains over time and every time he damages you he gains health back. If you've seen the preview of his abilities you'll see him destroying a lucian. I think though that it only allows melees and no abilities, but it looks pretty annoying.

ValyrianBladeSep 30, 20141 votes

oh god that sounds terrible... His passive? I guess I need to go look at this...

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20141 votes

His ridiculously good split pushing ability is mostly what goes against teamwork, as people take that as "Tryn exists to split push and only to split push". In addition, using his set of abilities to the maximum requires doing stuff that would be completely moronic for any other champion to do, so nobody can really follow him in most of the time. Just to explain, I'm not trying to argue anything.

Also, at least Aatrox's rule-murdering ability doesn't have a 90 sec cd.

OnegarionSep 29, 20141 votes

Split pushing doesn't go against teamwork. If anything it requires more teamwork so that the enemy team doesn't collapse on you while you split and your team is doing nothing giving the enemy an easy advantage.

Split pushing requires the same lvl of teamwork as 5v5 fighting. Its just not the same kind of teamwork. Its the not the same strat and honestly most of the time this strat of split pushing works in favor or tryn and how he helps the team. Both strats require communcation and the team being on the same page. Just because someone does it wrong doesn't mean that it demotes teamwork.

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20141 votes

What you're describing is normal split pushing and you are right about that. Tryn's split push does not require teamwork as he can escape almost every time the team tries to collapse on him, and if they do catch him, they probably spent so much time doing so that the enemy team just got plenty of free farm or an objective somewhere else.

Also, you seem pretty experienced with the game, so you know how the average Tryn player acts. They are so used to being able to free roam alone and do whatever they want with way more success than they should have thanks to his kit, so they completely refuse to group up. The sad part is it often ends up working, so the players are convinced that it's a good idea.

OnegarionSep 29, 20142 votes

There is a big difference in what you describe is the champion and what is the player. While yes his kit does promote split pushing it by no means makes the champion cause the actions of unskilled players.

I've played with tryns that prefer not to split push and group with the team and work well and of course I've met the other side of that argument. In most cases of the latter they are unskilled and usually meet them in lower tiers or rankings. I've also called for split pushes when it is advantageous to the team and had the other 3 members (support main) fail to provide pressure for the split push to work. It doesn't matter if the split pusher was a zed, tryn, vayne, etc. Its on the player and not the champion where these problem lie though. There will be a time where the mindset and actions you describe are not beneficial and will not actually promote anything other than bad play from a player that doesn't understand what they are doing and simply do it to continue to do it because it worked against those unskilled against it.

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20141 votes

I agree with you, but I think tryn's skillset heavily reinforces the bad decision making players because it can often work out in his favor to do something that would normally be incredibly stupid.

OnegarionSep 30, 20141 votes

is that not how you learn though? You do something until it stops working? Its all part of the learning curve and while it really sucks to be on their team its working how it should. Its what makes the difference between a good player and a bad player.

InsaneSamuraiSep 30, 20141 votes

Yes it is how you're supposed to learn, that's the major reason why I think he needs to be changed - because his kit teaches people bad habits.

MegaBoomBoomSep 29, 20141 votes

Tryndamere fills the role of the phantom engager. If you play him right, his presence demands attention. Reading other comments, you're exactly right. He's a great split pusher. It's nigh impossible to engage him with only one person and come out on top. This means at least 2 have to go, leaving open the rest of the map for a group of 4 to dominate against at most 3 opponents.

But there's the other side. If you do decide to group with your team, his damage output is tremendous. If he engages a teamfight first, his natural tankiness helps him survive for at least 5 seconds, giving teammates time to follow up, all the while dealing damage on whoever is in front of him.

Both of these roles require high amounts of communication.

InsaneSamuraiSep 29, 20142 votes

You're right, he is extremely powerful when he is coordinating with his team, but my general problem with him is he can still majorly impact the game when he just ignores everyone and runs around alone the whole time, which just seems wrong.

redniwediSSep 30, 20141 votes

That's actually a good strategy in certain situations. Say every lane is winning, but your jungler is behind. If Tryndamere, as a top laner, is ahead he can quite easily start roaming and give up his farm to the jungler.

Or perhaps it's later on in the game and Tryndamere is a large enough threat that it takes multiple people to stop him. This allows his team to move to objectives that are far away from where Tryndamere is causing pressure while having a fight that will either allow Tryndamere or his team to take an objective, depending on how the enemy team responds.

Teamwork does not always mean grouping.

InsaneSamuraiSep 30, 20141 votes

I never said split pushing in general or roaming in general is bad, but never joining your group no matter what happens is extremely bad.

redniwediSSep 30, 20142 votes

Allow me to say my last line again:

Teamwork does not always mean grouping.

Some champions are best used outside of team fights, while some absolutely require a group to be effective. If a team only picks champions in champion select and does not pick a strategy these differences could cause serious problems.

That said if you have a split pusher you should not be asking them to group for too many reasons. Is the enemy team grouping for baron? That's a good time to ask your split pusher to group. What about if the enemy team is attempting to rush your nexus? Depending on how likely they are to succeed that could also be a good time to call your split pusher over.

Asking your split pusher to come mid so you can siege a tower however is a terrible idea, as you will basically be fighting a 4v5 without additional pressure to split the 5 into a more manageable group.

The few legitimate reasons for a split pusher like Tryndamere to group are large enough reasons that only an idiot would ignore them, and as such it is the players fault. The champion has nothing to do with it.

MystVearnSep 29, 20141 votes

Isn't Tryndamere a Split pusher? which is one of the strategies your team can use? i don't understand how his kit is "toxic" I don't see tryndamere that often in my elo

Hullabaloo907Sep 29, 20141 votes

I would not be surprised if riot paid him some attention at some point.

redniwediSSep 30, 20141 votes

There are two types of hypercarry in this game. The first requires a lead in order to get rolling, and if a lead is not gained they fall way behind and are useless (this is the group Tryndamere is in). The second will snowball themselves regardless of what happens in the early game, and can be 0/20/0 with 2 cs and suddenly start wrecking people (this is the group that is actually toxic).

Every champion is capable of working with their team, some simply have fewer team compositions they work well in.