@Meddler Any chance of getting the Q nerf somewhat reverted for Shyvana?

Mobius·May 22, 2016·9 votes·887 views

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.10.1/img/champion/Shyvana.png

I wanted to make this discussion to talk about the changes planned for Shyvana after the removal of Devourer. I know you added AP scaling to Shyvana W, but I don't think it will make any difference for the champion. The new Guinsoo stacks on auto-attacks, not on-hits, so Shyvana's Q will only proc 1 stack and after I played with the item for awhile, it's not that great on her. The reason why Guinsoo is mediocre at best on Shyvana is the fact Shyvana doesn't have a big uptime on targets, so it's better to have a dps item like BotRK/Titanic who does damage from the start and make use of the "momentum", rather than a stacking item, because once you get all the stacks you are probably out of the fight already. Guinsoo might be better for a laner than a jungler, because you can stack on minions and then trade, but you can't do that as jungle Shyvana, especially since she has got no Atk Speed steroid ability to begin with. I wish you could somewhat revert the nerf on her Q, because I feel like she needs some power back, especially in the top lane. I'm not saying you should bring her Q numbers like before, but smooth them out a little better, example:

PRE-NERF: 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 / 100% AD
LIVE: 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100% AD
PROPOSED CHANGE: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100% AD

She will still keep her fantasy of a "mid game" champion, but at least her Q won't tickle early game. Another thing I'd like to see is her ultimate being "unstoppable", meaning it cannot be interrupted by any ability or cc, reason why:

It has a fairly short range
When interrupted, it hinders her stickiness by a lot and she's a champion who gets kited pretty easily already
A huge dragon being stopped by a random knockback is really underwhelming, especially as an ultimate

I know you buffed Bloodrazor already, but right now she's sitting at around 48% winrate with low playrate in the jungle and I just want to know what the plans are for Shyvana for 6.11.

13 Comments

cocacolalipsMay 22, 20162 votes

They will just buff her AP ratios again, Rito knows what's up.

masterdragon481May 22, 20161 votes

I'm a Shyvana main and I'd like to start by saying that I completely agree with rageblade, ive cut it out of my build too after trying to briefly. Might change my build up again when the new trinity force comes out but I digress.

I would agree with restoring some of the power of her Q, it was a harsh nerf in the first place and since then (and the devourer removal) she is struggling a lot along with the rest of the attack speed junglers.

I have to disagree with your suggested ultimate buffs. Its annoying that it gets interrupted and that it doesn't properly drag targets the way it should. But if it were to be changed so that it were more "reliable" it would certainly have to take a nerf to its uptime. Even with 2 points in it, I can have it up again in 2-3 jungle camps if I really want to. That amount of uptime means you can force a flash and come back a small amount of time later with your ultimate up again. It's immensely powerful to have the ability up as often as it is. The only change I would like to see is making it so that if I reactivate my ultimate, I can cancel dragon form earlier (so I can start building fury again).

MobiusMay 22, 20161 votes

I know what you're trying to say, but something needs to be done about her ultimate, I mean, I use it more like a gap close ability rather than an actual skillshot I need to hit to get rewarded. 175 / 300 / 425 magic damage is not bad, it's basically Malphite's ultimate, but it's so short and doesn't cc enough that doesn't actually mean anything, I basically use it to have more uptime on the target (and do more damage that way) rather than trying to hit someone with it. I know that it does more than just closing distance, but it still feels underwhelming. Since it can be interrupted, making it "unstoppable" will mean that atleast, if I'm in range of hitting someone, I'm sure I will land it, which I think is enough to justify all the drawbacks it has.

masterdragon481May 22, 20162 votes

I think that would be net nerf to her. The uptime and how often I can use it is WHY its so powerful. If it were more reliable (like you want it to be) its uptime would surely suffer. And I'm not okay with that.

I like being able to use my ultimate to force flashes, knowing my ultimate will be up again in 40 seconds vs the 5 minutes of flash.

I also don't want Shyvana having anymore than an interrupt as cc because her insane damage output is only acceptable because of her lack of CC. If you want CC, then play malph, don't ruin Shyvana turning her into him.

I also don't think the ulti is underwhelming in that it does besides close distance (which again, I think is a perfectly fine for an ultimate, look at Toph i mean Talyia and Twisted fate). Its also adding a pseduo poison trail and an AOE double on hit auto attack. Its strong.

It sounds like you are trying to play shyvana as the main tank of the team (again falling to your malphite reference). Shyvana isn't that kind of champ, and trying to make her into one is going to ultimately nerf her, not help her.

MobiusMay 22, 20161 votes

"Insane damage output" is kinda of an exaggeration, she does really good damage with just 2 items but it's nowhere near Jax/Yi levels with the same gold, she's a midgame champ who powerspikes when you close her 2nd damage item, but nothing top notch lategame. I know your point of view, but I don't agree with it, because I don't feel like making it "unstoppable" is such a big of a deal, especially when the range is so short, but I don't pretend this kind of change to go through. I do think it needs something more, because atm it's really dull as an ultimate.

masterdragon481May 22, 20162 votes

Its the same range as a flash if you don't gimp it so it isn't really short ranged. And i still maintain that her ultimate isn't dull at all, you just don't appreciate what it does.

And insane damage output is very valid, I beat most jax and Yi's that try to duel me. The thing about shyvana is because of her passive, she is tankier than either yi or jax (ulti non-withstanding). She can absorb a huge amount of damage relative to how much she puts out compared to other champions in her class.

MobiusMay 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Its the same range as a flash if you don't gimp it so it isn't really short ranged. And i still maintain that her ultimate isn't dull at all, you just don't appreciate what it does.

And insane damage output is very valid, I beat most jax and Yi's that try to duel me. The thing about shyvana is because of her passive, she is tankier than either yi or jax (ulti non-withstanding). She can absorb a huge amount of damage relative to how much she puts out compared to other champions in her class.

I can guaranteed that's not true, you are able to duel Yi/Jax because they have less gold/xp than you, because on even ground you don't stand a chance, even with exaust. I usually pick Jax into Shyvana for the exact same reason, if I can keep up with her there's no way I'm gonna lose a 1v1, even inside her jungle.

SlythionMay 22, 20161 votes

I agree with you, but holy hell her buggy as hell drag mechanic is annoying af lol. I used to main Shyvana but now it's shared with Amumu after her harsh nerfs

masterdragon481May 22, 20161 votes

Yea, I don't count on the drag. But it works very well as an interrupt (I love catching fiddle and yi's unaware of the fact that i can knock them out of their channels).

I still maintain that having it up more often is better than having an ultimate that can't be stopped but is up less often. Her ulti is annoying, but learning when and how to use it is just part of the champion mastery. That's how I see it at least.

SlythionMay 22, 20161 votes

I agree 100%. I tried out the bloodrazor on her for the first time since the removal of devourer and it seemed...underwhelming. Any tips/adjustments to deal with this indirect nerf by any chance?

masterdragon481May 22, 20162 votes

First and foremost, run smite exhaust. Its the main reason I don't want her ultimate to change at all; I use her ultimate as a gap closer/ flash-that-you-need-to-plan-around which frees up a summoner spell for ganking as well as turning her into a peerless 1v1 champion. One might be able to make a ghost argument for her post ghost buff, but the dueling potential of exhaust is too good. Also pick up challenging smite. I can't tell you how many people underestimate Shyvana's burst damage and flash away only to die to that damage over time. And if you are using my build, chilling smite is weak and worthless.

Bloodrazor post buff is doing very well for her, no complaints there anymore. With just bloodrazor and the upgraded potions, I can solo dragons and come out ~60% health. Second item should be frozen mallet (okay third, finish your boots somewhere along the way). No exceptions. The only weakness in her kit is the lack of cc. Mallet is expensive and not particularly efficient statwise, but it gives Shyvana (who has free stats and butt loads of damage built in) exactly what she needs to forces flashes (or ults) for basically free. After that, either witts end or bork usually (depending on enemy team comp) or a tank item if my team is falling behind.

I don't like to play shyvana as a tank/initiator, because she REALLY fails in this role. That being said, she will pull aggro from multiple enemies when she comes into a fight, particularly with my build, because an adc (or even a mid) can't escape by themselves unless they are super fed; burnout + exhaust closes the distance and allows me to apply my slow, and if they flash, I have ulti to follow. I'm sure you know most of this, but knowing how an enemy team is going to respond to you (or needs to respond to you) means you can tailor your engages to give your team the best shot (flanking works much better for shyvana vs a straight run down, given how easy it is to stuff her ultimate).

18/0/12 Fervor, I run lifesteal quints (yes lifesteal quints, remember those?) armor yellows, and the rest attack speed. It makes for very healthy clears and the lifesteal quints give me some dueling/ survivability vs champions before I am able to get a blade of the ruined king. I have experimented with attack speed quints in the past, however, and with changes to red and bloodrazor being a little different, maybe I need to try that again; after all, 4.5% life steal isn't exactly a lot when I'm not building a lot of attack damage. We'll see.

Hopefully some of this is new/ interesting to you. Shyvana is by far my favorite champion in the game, and maybe with the rageblade changes we can start to see her in top lane again? Guess I have more experiments to run. Happy Leaguing!

Ulquiorra995May 23, 20161 votes

Being uninterruptible would be great (come on, it's a fucking dragon flying at you). Drag not going full distance, however, is working as intended I believe. I can see her needing huge nerfs if it dragged full distance.

And Q lost half of its bonus damage - so yes, getting that back instead of shitty AP ratios you'll never make use of would be absolutely great.

Raiku KawisaMay 23, 20161 votes

Improving the Ultimate would be amazing. It prob wouldn't matter too much for new Shyvana players, but as someone who mains the dragon, getting knocked back gets old FAST.