The real problem with Riven that removes her counterplay.

Harrys Nut Shack··8 votes·1,748 views

Is the fact that she has 1.5 seconds of hard CC. This allows her to use her entire kit, and even 2 or so auto attacks which also makes use of her enormous passive AD steroid. This gives her the burst of a mage except she also has 4 dashes, an AD scaling shield, an ultimate steroid/ranged nuke, and she is resourceless.

Like Blitzcrank, she can mess up as much as she wants and just come back and try again 10 seconds later. Except unlike Blitzcrank she has 0 mana issues. Nothing is there to keep her early game dominance in check. There are very very few champions in the game I would say have an edge over her in lane, and it's a very minimal advantage. Not like Yasuo vs Ahri block 100% of her kit with a wind wall advantage, it's like a "these champions might not feed Riven as much as other champions" advantage.

So something needs to be done about her resourcelessness, her hard CC, her burst, or her absurd damage. These things are fine alone, but when bundled together create a monster without counterplay. Her shield makes it very difficult to harass her down enough to gain an advantage. She will be able to shield at the very least every other ability, and you will run out of mana before you can actually kill her. She is one of the safer champions in the game because of her 4 dashes and shield, and she is also one of the more deadly champions that can easily secure kills. Her "poor lategame" is offset by her ability to snowball her lane early game against nearly any champion, and she even offers 1.5 seconds of hard CC for teamfights, ensuring she never completely falls behind.

This is not a QQ thread, I'm trying to make Riven a less toxic champion. In higher levels of play you can punish her aggressiveness slightly, but even then she has the mobility to escape most ganks if she uses wards. In lower levels of play you pray that your jungler isn't blind to the Riven standing on your turret because it is very difficult to have the advantage in a 1v1 vs Riven.

17 Comments

Lugg4 votes

Almost all of the toxic champions in the game have two things: High mobility and high damage. The combination is so hard to counterplay. Riot needs to realize that you can't have high mobility and high damage and be balanced.

Harrys Nut Shack1 votes

Exactly and on top of this Riven has a shield, hard CC, and huge sustained damage. Her kit is simply overloaded and she will still be a nightmare with one of her strengths removed or toned down.

Gunpoint1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Harrys Nut Shack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEOqJFas,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-07-12T20:47:53.770+0000)

Exactly and on top of this Riven has a shield, hard CC, and huge sustained damage. Her kit is simply overloaded and she will still be a nightmare with one of her strengths removed or toned down.

You can't just list Riven's kit and expect to make a point, you have to explain why it's a problem in this certain instance. Also, in your first paragraph you said she had the "burst of a mage." But she is MELEE so that's not really a fair thing to say.

Edit: For the record I don't like Riven either, I think her E should just be a dash or a shield, not both. If she dashes and fails to dodge the actual damage, why should she still block it anyway. Except that probably will never change because Riven needs the dash to pull off most of her combos and the shield for her outplays. Though, the shield definatley shouldn't be AD scaling.

jDVL20eCYs2 votes

Low elo thoughts. More counter play to riven the. Long range mages that nuke you from fog of war. Riven have mobility cause she is squssy and meele range. People seem to forgett how op range is

Lugg2 votes

I find that kind of funny considering Riven absolutely destroys those mages instantly.

And you have to be high as a kite if you think Riven is squishy. I have personally seen Rivens (on more than one occassion) do 3v1s under the enemy tower, kill all 3 people while being focused and taking tower shots, and still get out alive.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Don't forget her ult will be up again after she kills you once and you get back to lane.

68636949_DEL2 votes

[deleted]

Harrys Nut Shack3 votes

I gave clear reasoning as to why Riven is toxic and you give me this? Please try again and come back when you learn to debate like an adult.

KnighRrider2 votes

Are you guys kidding me? Riven is extremely squishy, her only defensive ability is her dash(all cc requires melee range), she has 0 lane sustain, shes only good if she can out trade(because poke and cc destroys her), and shes a horrible team fighter. And shes not consistently OP anymore guys(shes been nerfed tons). btw- WTF! are you talking about not being able to counter pick her!? Have you ever played Renekton? Darius? Teemo? Fiora? Garen?(yes Garen, he can walk away from trades ez) There are plenty of champions that can shut her down if played well. ppl say "she has so many dashes!" none of them have significant distance unless all used together and only her third q can jump over certain terrain(less than most dashes) if placed extremely carefully making her ez to juke. Honestly if you can out damage or cc her she dies way easy(not to mention if you can do any of that that as ranged). You could complain about her dmg but if you can survive or cc her combo shes really weak on cool down.

Harrys Nut Shack1 votes

You kidding me? Riven has huge base stats. She has nearly the maximum AS growth, MR growths, and high hp, which no mages have. Her AD scaling shield with high base shield, low cooldowns, and no costs also makes her especially hearty. All she needs to do is build 1 or 2 defensive items to be an off tank with the same damage output as a mage and the same CC of a tank, with the mobility of an assasin.

NemeBro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Harrys Nut Shack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEOqJFas,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-07-13T04:46:52.173+0000)

You kidding me? Riven has huge base stats. She has nearly the maximum AS growth, MR growths, and high hp, which no mages have. Her AD scaling shield with high base shield, low cooldowns, and no costs also makes her especially hearty.

lol

Compare Tryndamere's base stats to Riven, and then realize how high someone's base stats can really get.

For champions in Riven's class, her base stats are mediocre to outright bad.

Fiora has higher base stats. Nasus, of all people, has higher base stats. Darius, overall, has higher base stats. Renekton has higher base stats. So does Wukong. So does Garen. So does Shen.

What you mean is that Riven has higher base stats than ranged champions. Most melee champions do. The only thing notable Riven has going on for her is a really good attack speed growth.

Everyone who has MR growth has the same MR growth. All champions with MR growth and base MR above 30 are melee champions, without exception. Melee champions get better stats than ranged champions because they are melee, and have to deal with bullshit to start dealing their damage. They are inherently higher risk.

So now that it has been established that Riven's base stats are actually pretty bad for her class of champion, let's also tackle another weakness to the champion: some of the lowest health sustain in the game. If you go even in a trade with Riven, guess what? You won the trade because basically every champion has better health sustain. If you have health sustain in your abilities like Garen or Renekton, even better.

People also like to cry about Riven's AD scaling shield, but know what? DOT counters it. A Teemo dart will be applying damage past the duration of the shield. Darius similarly hurts a Riven that shields his abilities with his passive. Even if you can't beat the shield with DOT, it lasts 1.5 seconds, and many Rivens have to use the shield to cancel their animations, so you can attack her through those windows of weakness.

MasterVidallis2 votes

Riven's kit is overloaded and her animation canceling creates terrible readability and randomness issue for the person on the receiving end. She isn't overwhelming but she is toxic.

Zahz1 votes

is this really true tho? cant remember the last time i saw a riven played at top level or banned. Perhaps its more of a knowledge or mechanic problem for ppl of certain skill levels to counter

Harrys Nut Shack1 votes

Like I said it's because Riven's aggressiveness can only be countered by a jungle gank. Her dueling power is simply too strong, and the only 1v1 she will lose is against Udyr, Pantheon, and Renekton. 2 of those 3 counters also don't get a level 6 ultimate to use against her, so their advantage slips away. Renekton also has to push the lane to sustain, setting himself up for ganks.

She's manageable in higher elos but there is simply too much dependence on your jungler. Normally it's fine to hard counter a champion and dominate the lane, but she counters way too many champions.

NemeBro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Harrys Nut Shack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEOqJFas,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-07-12T20:49:47.197+0000)

Like I said it's because Riven's aggressiveness can only be countered by a jungle gank. Her dueling power is simply too strong, and the only 1v1 she will lose is against Udyr, Pantheon, and Renekton. 2 of those 3 counters also don't get a level 6 ultimate to use against her, so their advantage slips away. Renekton also has to push the lane to sustain, setting himself up for ganks.

She's manageable in higher elos but there is simply too much dependence on your jungler. Normally it's fine to hard counter a champion and dominate the lane, but she counters way too many champions.

At what point in the game is the 1v1 taking place?

Garen can 1v1 Riven early, mid, and late game. Darius can 1v1 Riven at all points in the game save the very early game. Tryndamere, if he doesn't manage to cheese Riven at level 2, will still very easily be able to 1v1 Riven late game. Master Yi can as well. Nasus mid and late game if he is stacking properly crushes Riven in a duel, obviously.

Riven is a strong duelist and is a strong champion, but what makes you find her so overbearing?

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