Why do mages like Viktor need to be made clunky for "counterplay"?

Durfain·May 5, 2016·70 votes·3,554 views

when marksmen have absolutely zero counterplay because all their damage is point and click?

67 Comments

Kitten of EvilMay 5, 201617 votes

Because mages also get to be heavily mana-gated on all their damage.

Am I balancing League right?

AlüeMay 5, 20169 votes

lets not leave out the mobility they are given....

Br4ndonMay 5, 20169 votes

Vel'Koz feels really bad to play now. His ult feels so weak without his passive, the rest of his abilities are very lack luster too.

DurfainMay 5, 20165 votes

Yeah I used to main Vel'Koz but can't stomach him in his current form. You can see what they were going for.. you know, make it so you have to combo your skills in order to get a really beastly ultimate but this is like_ theory _. In practise, you're never going to get off an E + W or a Q + W on even a few members of their team which means he's just straight up weaker. For example, before if you did W + R across their entire team you would get 2 passive procs + R, W damage; now you just get W + R damage. It straight up nerfed the amount of possible combos he has and makes his passive kind of useless since now its going to account for only a very small fraction of his damage.

VerdadeMay 5, 20161 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0EE9tqPw-sigh-velkoz-changes

Br4ndonMay 5, 20163 votes

Their reason for nerfing his W was his laning patterns. You know the same pattern that Ziggs, Lux and Xerath have who are also artillery mages. The same play pattern thats apparently just fine and healthy except when it came to velkoz.

I wouldnt even call Vel'Koz an artillery mage anymore, hes more of a surprise-from-bush-to-do-his-entire-combo-and-hope-you-dont-have-flash mage. If riot doesnt revert the nerfs to his W and E they should at least let his ult stack his passive he will remain weak. I would gladly trade in lower ratios and numbers on his ult just to have the stacking back.

Usually there isnt enough time or the enemy isnt positioned to allow for combos, you need to just ult and kite with the rest of your abilities. Another problem Riot probably didnt foresee was that Vel'Koz W second trigger is delayed just enough that E>W>R on someone means .5~ seconds of your ult doesnt even get the true damage. That can be around 300-400 damage thats not converted come late game.

BLYAT moon AkaliMay 5, 20169 votes

i main viktor AND velkoz.

jackpot...

Hayaishi2May 5, 20166 votes

Because marksmen dont have waveclear or aoe damage in their AA.

AkabaneKunMay 5, 201623 votes

{quoted}

Because marksmen dont have waveclear or aoe damage in their AA.

They have on their skills derp, what a worthless excuse, not to mention ADCs have better mana management items, even more now that mana regen is basically gone.

Hayaishi2May 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

They have on their skills derp, what a worthless excuse, not to mention ADCs have better mana management items, even more now that mana regen is basically gone.

There's not a single ADC that waveclearas as fast as a mage.

There's not a single ADC ability that's that better than a mage one, whether it's utility or damage.

StellafreyjaMay 5, 201634 votes

Sivir

The Great DivideMay 5, 20167 votes

Literally the top reason I play her: dat OP waveclear

StellafreyjaMay 5, 20165 votes

I like Sivir because she can still do things when behind, unlike most other ADCs. If she has a Shiv, she can clear waves easily and her ult is a great engage or disengage.

VerdadeMay 5, 20161 votes

Shiv is currently bugged on Sivir, proccing for 800+ damage... quite ridiculous

ShonjlMay 6, 20161 votes

Thats the same reason I like Tristana. She can be extremely behind, but she still can be a threat since she is still a tower pusher. No matter how far behind she is, a fully stacked E is still going to massively chunk towers. I had cases where I was camped hard bot lane by a Lee. I was like 0/4 and literally half the enemy Cait's CS. I was like 70 she was like 160. Not only was I still able to 1v1 Cait since Trist has a better kit(If Cait cant get headshots off, she most likely isn't winning a trade, since she can't really ult in the middle of a fight) But the second people ignored me for a moment, I could outright 100-0 a tower in seconds. God forbid they let you farm up a bit and now the farmed up Trist will eat you alive.

PDE5 InhibMay 6, 20161 votes

and literally half the enemy Cait's CS

I was like 70 she was like 160

wut

WimbledofyMay 5, 20164 votes

also jinx and anyone who happens to buy runaans.

KnalxzMay 6, 20164 votes

Lucian Jinx Tristana Varus

deadlychuckMay 6, 20161 votes

don't forget about Jinx Varus

No More CagesMay 5, 201613 votes

Jhin item 3087 item 3031 http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/53/Dancing_Grenade.png You called?

JezboMay 5, 201614 votes

Why is wave clear so important? It's not like ADC's take years to wave clear.. they might lag behind a few seconds? And what happens if the mages clear all the way to towers? Too bad they can only slap the tower where as an ADC can level objectives by themselves.

DragonMastaWolfyMay 5, 20165 votes

There's not a single ADC that waveclearas as fast as a mage.

Tristana item 3124

macromiteMay 6, 20161 votes

eh, kinda slow.

forrestoMay 6, 20161 votes

so? 2-3 extra seconds isnt gonna make that much difference

macromiteMay 6, 20161 votes

2-3 seconds a wave is a pretty large amount of time, considering how many waves it will take to get to a tier two or three. it gives the enemy much more time to react.

AuryielMay 6, 20163 votes

Ashe 's ult sure doesn't beat Karthus 's Q as far as utility goes, huh?

Maybe you should avoid ridiculous sweeping statements

Hayaishi2May 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

's ult sure doesn't beat 's Q as far as utility goes, huh?

Maybe you should avoid ridiculous sweeping statements

Wasn't aware that karthus q was meant as an utility ability.

macromiteMay 6, 20163 votes

nono, you need to take that one. you said pretty specifically that no adc ability is better than any mage ability in either utility or damage. this proves that wrong in the most obvious way possible.

DurfainMay 5, 20164 votes

Jinx

PoskeMay 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They have on their skills derp, what a worthless excuse, not to mention ADCs have better mana management items, even more now that mana regen is basically gone.

Honestly they just have lower mana costs

McKeifusMay 5, 20166 votes

Because RIOT HATES MAGES! It's the only real answer to what is happening here. I don't get it. They are just wrecking and nerfing mages, screwing with itemization, and the Mage Rework contained two buffs for on-hit ADCs. Most Mages saw a decrease in damage, reducing their threat levels. The ADC & tank meta is here to stay.

CowboyNinjaMay 6, 20164 votes

Did you like playing Viktor, Vlad, Vel'kaz, Cass, Swain and Zyra even though they were sub-optimal picks? Well guess what, now they suck even more! If you like struggling in an uphill fight against your own champion, have we got the mages for you!

Wana feel like your Champion has cerebral palsy? Play these guys! It doesn't get more clunky than this!

OdinakosMay 6, 20162 votes

How does Zyra sucks even more? Tried her a couple games as support and she feels stronger and def a lot more annoying. Even if numbers were lowered, she has better gameplay now, Q is a lot better, the fact that you can proc plants near the spell is awesome and she still has the potential to 100-0 squishes into mid game with only sorcs, guise and FCQ. The only thing missing is her old passive but first it was stupid on a long range mage and second her zone control has gone up by a ton with her new passive. Good luck engaging her with an army of plants ready to unleash on your team.

Overall she went up at least onetier as support. She has the potential to be a strong AP support instead of a niche/weird pick. Really the only thing i hate for new Zyra is the fact that i wanted to add to my mains another tank support beside Allistar(oversaturated at range supports).

DarkRitualMay 6, 20161 votes

Agreed, Zyra doesn't feel terrible to play anymore in bot lane. Need a Tank support? Leona is my go-to, and Thresh as my other choice.

RasCaelestisMay 7, 20161 votes

I've only seen two Zyras since the rework. One was on my team as Support when I was top-lane, and I'll admit, I didn't pay close attention to it since both our lanes were going well, so I didn't need to TP down to help.

The second one I saw was in mid, against me. I was Vel'Koz and still getting used to his new kit (overall not a fan, but I can see what Riot was going for), but that lane was miserable. My friend started spectating me during that game and his description of her is perfect: "Biological Heimerdinger." I'm not sure if it was just that I was still re-learning Vel, but it felt like there was no way I could push lane against her. She constantly had at least 3-6 plants up and shooting anything near them. While they didn't last as long as Heimer turrets or do as much damage on a 1-1 basis, the fact that there were so many up at once was incredibly annoying. My team won the game, and even though I killed Zyra in mid a few times, any of the times I was able to push forward, she'd undo all I did in seconds, and I'd be forced back again.

It was also strange that sometimes seeds would become plants when Zyra's abilities didn't hit them (unlike how her old kit worked). Any seeds even in the general area of all her abilities triggered, and it was really unclear when that would happen. She'd miss her root/slow, and I'd think I was in the clear, only to be poked down by plants that were suddenly on all sides of me.

It didn't feel OP, as I was able to fight her a few times and could win trades, but I did not enjoy laning against her at all, and I can see it being incredibly oppressive, regardless of who/what Zyra is against.

OdinakosMay 7, 20161 votes

Zyra's spell have extra radius for procing plants. I beleive is somewhere extra 200 range from the spell radius? If you play Zyra(or watch an ability review video) you will see a secodary targeting area where spell doesnt hit but procs her plants.

http://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1410486156/21695973?tab=builds

Disclaimer, its a normal game. Here I went against her at mid (Dont ask how i got mid as fill, amusing for support main) with Karma and did pretty good. As i know both sides. i focused on farming when she had plants around me. The shield made her life quite difficult as not only soaks damage from plants but makes skilshots difficult to land. After she proced her plants i went to the offensive where i had more effective tools to win trades and she had less seeeds available. Managed to beat her at lane by a fair margin.

As about pushing against her. I didnt(her tower fell at 20min mark), instead prioritized quick clears(and with morelos/echoes it was pretty fast) and helping somewhere else. If nothing was happening and she was MIA, then i would push. Tbh me and ww kept the mid game going with roams and plays. If you see my build order after i build morelo(11:28) i didnt go to base for 8 minutes as i was clearing and roaming, covering etc. It was a tense mid game with a lot of action. Bot was strugling with Bard free week (dont judge it was normal) and Yasuo had a hard time top vs Jayce. We pulled Jayce bot, Cait managed to recover and late game with bard and Karma she managed to have great dmg output.

So she seems a strong laner, but not so great roamer. Champs that can clear efficient and roam well are good matchups (loose lane, win game). Ahri, TF may be strong against her for that reason. For support, prob sustain or better poke. The obnoxius Nami Cait should work pretty good. I hope that helped.

RyzeReworkMay 6, 20162 votes

I remember each season its riot hates blank I've been through every season were somethinf wasn't good like when riot needed assassins and everyone BITCHED then people were too tank games were too long. Riot fixed it and everyone BITCHED. No-one remembered the long ziggs stalling games or the old azir kog mid lanes but if assassin's are weak they bitch. If mages are weak everyone bitches everyone's always ganna be unhappy

KnalxzMay 6, 20166 votes

Riot: http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/smoke_bomb_archer.gif

Mecha MaIphiteMay 6, 20164 votes

I didn't find that Viktor was hard to counterplay anyways. His E was dodgeable, his W had a delay before it hard CC'd you, his point-and-click Q really wasn't a big part of his damage. His R was annoying in the sense that it was hard to dodge the initial damage but from there you could pretty much walk away from it.

Blue VanityMay 5, 20163 votes

Dude be happy. Viktor was 0.1% clunky to begin with. They took a champ as smooth and streamlined as vlad and turned him into Howl's Moving Castle post-destruction.

DorkunedAurasMay 5, 20161 votes

Vlad was not streamlined, granted vlad also had pretty big counterplay issues.

Blue VanityMay 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Vlad was not streamlined, granted vlad also had pretty big counterplay issues.

He was streamlined. None of his abilities conflicted with one another; now they all do.

OverlordVladMay 5, 20162 votes

i would disagree, vlad has always been clunky with his long ass q cast (so many deaths mid naimation TT_TT) and stutter stepping with every ability cast and self silence on ult cast. however you are correct in that he now feels much clunkier to play and imo just overall really shitty compared to old vlad with less damage, less tank, and less healing except for small windows.

Big LincolnMay 5, 20163 votes

Just finished playing a game with him PvP, hoping that I might enjoy him better than I did on the pbe

didn't matter how fed I was, even with Rylai's people just walked out of my E and ult and started shutting me down

thanks riot, i'm glad i get punished for being good

Power CosmicMay 6, 20163 votes

I feel you. Viktor is now hitting zero aftershocks after before taking them for granted and hitting almost all of them. With no aftershock he cant lane well, and he is already hard as is.