The best way to nerf Zed hasn´t been mentioned yet

PinguinZo·Jan 4, 2016·72 votes·4,746 views

Simply disable his passive´s functionality on minions so that he is forced to move in closer range and AA or waste his energy to proc last hits since now he can basically kill a minion with an attack which would normally take at least 2-3 due to his passive which applies also to normal monsters and not only champs. That way his lane clearing won´t be hurt too much, but enough to give other players a chance to actually trade with him without risking to lose the trade AND the waveclear.

97 Comments

QuephaJan 4, 201628 votes

Somehow Zed gets to be manaless with powerful, low-risk poke, mobility, tons of damage potential, and ranged, safe waveclear. Champs with only two of those things tend to need to be gated by mana.

Only Play DariusJan 5, 20164 votes

You forget that he takes a ton of skill to play correctly and (most of all) doesn't murder entire teams like other assassins often do, which is why he is allowed to have the strongest laning phase of all of them.

QuephaJan 5, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxTZnrL1,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-01-05T05:01:56.965+0000)

doesn't murder entire teams like other assassins often do

Have you ever seen a fed Zed? He has as much 1v5 potential as any assassin.

SorryBoysImLesJan 5, 20164 votes

Not even factoring in that if he does get behind, he's pretty much the only mid-lane assassin who can split-push as effectively as a Tryndamere.

Which Riot pretended they addressed by love-tapping his base attack speed.

He doesn't fit the only niche that a majority of assassins do, which is snowball and delete X champ on the enemy team where normally failure to do so results in handicapping your team. He can effectively do multiple different tasks most assassins would be wasting their time doing allowing him to still benefit his team whilst behind.

S3ntinelJan 5, 20162 votes

Ever seen a fed voli? Ever seen a fed kat? Ever seen a fed Trynd? Ever seen a fed MF? Ever seen... yeah if you are fed you murder lots of people. But you're acting like only assassins can get fed and 1v5. I have seen a Voli get a pentakill cause he was fed. Same with a Sona. Yes a fed Sona. She came in after a teamfight and literally 1v5'd a penta. Don't be like "hurr durr if he's fed he's overpowered". Thats not overpowered, thats fed.

QuephaJan 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ever seen a fed voli? Ever seen a fed kat? Ever seen a fed Trynd? Ever seen a fed MF? Ever seen... yeah if you are fed you murder lots of people. But you're acting like only assassins can get fed and 1v5. I have seen a Voli get a pentakill cause he was fed. Same with a Sona. Yes a fed Sona. She came in after a teamfight and literally 1v5'd a penta. Don't be like "hurr durr if he's fed he's overpowered". Thats not overpowered, thats fed.

No, THEY were acting like Zed somehow isn't capable of fighting multiple targets with his ranged aoe abilities and mobility.

FrickendaChickenJan 5, 20162 votes

Zed is incredibly single target orientated. His abilities can do damage in an area because his abilities wouldn't have the same impact. Also, his Q is fairly slow, and only REALLY does damage when you hit someone with 1 hit. His energy costs are some of the highest of all the energy using characters, with no reliable way of getting it back. (Throwing your W in front of someone and then casting spells doesn't count as you can not rely on an enemy to walk in one single direction against someone)

If he uses his energy bar to kill one target, then he has no more energy to continue fighting unless fed. However, one can not rely on getting kills or specific items ever in any single match. You can only judge a champion on what his kit does by itself unless you are judging a specific item's power in accordance to their kit.

Like if a certain item's passive made it so if you hit a champion with the same ability twice, they would instantly die, champions like Talon and Zed would be broken.

I GANK LANESJan 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Have you ever seen a fed Zed? He has as much 1v5 potential as any assassin.

lol, no he doesnt. zed is the least overwhelming of all fed assassins by far, due to him being so reliant on his ult.

FrickendaChickenJan 5, 20161 votes

You cannot judge a champion on being fed. You cannot rely on becoming fed. You cannot rely on getting any item or any kills in any match without being in that certain match.

You can only judge a champion on their base kit, and how powerful that is by itself.

Lazypeon100Jan 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxTZnrL1,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-01-05T05:01:56.965+0000)

You forget that he takes a ton of skill to play correctly and (most of all) doesn't murder entire teams like other assassins often do, which is why he is allowed to have the strongest laning phase of all of them.

Skill to play isn't a good argument though. Just because a champ is harder to play well, does not mean it should be better than everyone else. That is horrible game design for a PVP game.

That said, I'm not really bothered by zed. I do think he will be a problem when the new AD assasin item is released though.

S3ntinelJan 6, 20161 votes

I think skill is a good argument. Look at Annie. She is good, and has a low skill level. But then look at Zed. He is very good, but if you put him in the hands of someone who has no idea how to play him, he sucks. He takes a lot of practice to get right, and when you get it wrong, you are punished. But get it right, and you get your reward.

Lazypeon100Jan 6, 20161 votes

I think that is fine as far as play styles go. Personally, the more complex champions are often more entertaining to watch as well as feeling more rewarding.

But when it comes to balance, Riot should strive for everyone to be even. I know realistically this won't happen, but that is why skill being a factor in balance seems a tad silly to me. Just my opinion though.

S3ntinelJan 10, 20161 votes

But what this guy is saying is that skill on a champ shouldn't matter. Thats like saying if someone is playing basketball vs. someone else and person #1 is an active player and the second has only played once, that isn't fair because person #1's skill in this sport is higher than person #2. If person #1 has taken the time to get better with that sport, he shouldn't be punished for it.

SmitemuffinJan 5, 20162 votes

"takes a ton of skill" means the exact opposite of having two blinks, a 1600-unit poke range, a super-fast regenerating resource, TWO spells that restore that resource, and the ability to flawlessly last-hit under turret without even casting spells.

S3ntinelJan 6, 20161 votes

Sure. Have you played him? Yeah have fun trying to throw a shadow somewhere, hit abilities on the target with both your shadow and you, dodge the enemies cc (and their allies) all while trying to fit in an auto attack to get your passive, procing hydra/botrk, and switching shadows all while keeping track of where they are so you know where to aim. Wow. Super easy. You're right. Also, you haven't played against a zed since at least july of last year (stopped looking at that point) so who are you to say how he is in his current state? Yes you may be Gold 3, but to form a valid opinion of a champion, you should probably play as or against them. Just saying...

SmitemuffinJan 9, 20161 votes

"Omg you have to, like, push all these buttons and even, like click the same thing with your mouse to hit your double AoEs and your slow while being able to blink without using flash!"

If you think that's hard, do everything you just described against a Zed. And do it with Lux Orianna Varus Karthus or Viktor so you can't just push a button and instantly get to safety if you screw up. Then after you've tried it without the training wheels, you can complain about how hard it is

S3ntinelJan 10, 20161 votes

Ok first off I used to play orianna and zed A LOT. It is pretty easy to counter a zed with them. Cause guess what? Zed shows up right behind you when he ults. You know exactly where he is gonna be right when he lands. Now it comes down to your reaction time vs. the Zed's.

Also, with Brand, you can stun him. With Karthus well you're shit out of luck cause he is immobile without any kind of stun or snare. But that's the price you pay with Karthus. Viktor can just put a w down as soon as zed starts to engage, then you can blow him the fuck up.

Varus has his ult to root zed. He is a poke based champ, so as long as you can land your q's, you should be fine because Zed will have such low health that if you hit a combo on him, you win.

Sounds to me like you just happen to not want to use counterplay on zed and would rather act like he's not there, in which case it is 100% your fault. I've seen countless Oriannas destroy zeds in lane. Same with Luxs, Brands and Viktors. If you happen to pick Karthus or Varus against him, well thats too bad.

But a small handful of champs that one champ counters isn't op. Its called balance. Get over yourself and learn to counter. Time to take your training wheels off.

YossarianSenseiJan 5, 20161 votes

Almost any mage with a blue buff or mid game items entirely outclasses Zed in every aspect except his assassination

darapier17Jan 5, 20162 votes

they are supposed to assassins are supposed to assassinate people

YossarianSenseiJan 6, 20161 votes

You don't say

Steel BlossomJan 6, 20161 votes

Well his Q's pretty skinny. And his energy cost is high as fuck, esp. if he misses a spell, or both. Third, his ult is easily countered by any and all invulnerability/debuff remove spells. With that said, however, Zed has way too much options compared to champions like Talon or Rengar. This kind of inconsistency is not only unfair to the ADCs and mages(cough cowards cough cough), but also other assassin players who don't play Zed.

disregardableJan 4, 201614 votes

Basically, this would be very punishing.

360D3GR3SSJan 4, 20166 votes

Meaning this is not the way to go.

CatSithJan 5, 20168 votes

Meaning it is the way to go.

ZGM PermabannedJan 5, 20162 votes

Meaning this might be the way to go.

IcyPepperJan 5, 20162 votes

Meaning there could be other ways to go, or this one is.

DefectivDetectivJan 4, 201610 votes

As a Zed player, this is a great idea.

isKOPPENJan 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

As a Zed player, this is a great idea.

You play 1 game a day(barely) and played zed one time jajjajjajaaja, Zeds laneing phase is strong 4 a reason, cuz his teamfight is shit.

Tails DollJan 5, 20162 votes

Every assasin's team fight is weak. They exist to kill high priority targets, not to get penta kills. Every assasin besides zed has a weak laning fase, at least pre 6

Teemo or FeedmoJan 5, 20162 votes

Katarina

DarkSunSovereignJan 5, 20162 votes

Shes more of a mage TBH. A bursty kill mage with no utility, but still a mage.

MasziiJan 4, 20164 votes

Rip zed jungle

Stiv1234Jan 4, 201613 votes

Minions =/= monsters

ƒoesJan 4, 20161 votes

Technically they're still programmed as minions. Wards can be ward-hopped to by Katarina and Lee Sin (etc.) because they're coded as minions.

RatbertJan 5, 20164 votes

Except there's already numerous mechanics that are monster only, like vayne's w's cap against monsters.

SyraiJan 5, 20163 votes

Everything used to be coded as minions, but this was back in the day of Season 1-2 or even 3.

DecritJan 5, 20161 votes

like Veigar ?

FrickendaChickenJan 5, 20161 votes

Veigar "IS THAT A SHORT JOKE?"

DecritJan 5, 20161 votes

Nah, just talking about the biggest caster minion ever :D

Tik115Jan 4, 20164 votes

.....yeah no I can't see this being bad, it lets people do the LB method of dealing with him (Shove under tower to make him lose CS or use abilities which means they won't be used on you)

NagmaJan 5, 20163 votes

i feel like playing against a ranged assasin , seriously wtf is that shuriken couldown

Indominus BladeJan 4, 20162 votes

Lmfao, ok, do this but buff it to 10/15/20% on champions then :) because if you don't, his nerfed passive will be worse than Talons.

roflcopterssssssJan 4, 201612 votes

so this: Zed's basic attacks against champions and jungle monsters below 50% of their maximum health deal 6 / 8 / 10% of their maximum health as bonus magic damage. is worse then

would be worse then: Talon's basic attacks deal 10% increased damage to enemies that are Slow icon slowed, Stun icon stunned, Root icon rooted or Suppression icon suppressed.

note the basic attack part, that's like what? 20-40 extra damage mid game?

VasilisGreenJan 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

so this: Zed's basic attacks against champions and jungle monsters below 50% of their maximum health deal 6 / 8 / 10% of their maximum health as bonus magic damage. is worse then

would be worse then: Talon's basic attacks deal 10% increased damage to enemies that are Slow icon slowed, Stun icon stunned, Root icon rooted or Suppression icon suppressed.

note the basic attack part, that's like what? 20-40 extra damage mid game?

what's with all the icons?

Only Play DariusJan 5, 20161 votes

As a melee midler he needs it in order to farm if he gets harassed or zoned. Almost every melee midlaner needs something to stand a chance against mages, Fizz has ghosting/AA reduction, Yas has shield etc.

Dark NephthysJan 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxTZnrL1,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-01-05T05:00:23.826+0000)

No

As a melee midler he needs it in order to farm if he gets harassed or zoned. Almost every melee midlaner needs something to stand a chance against mages, Fizz has ghosting/AA reduction, Yas has shield etc.

So having a ranged projectile that can hit multiple targets from a decent range which can also be thrown 2 times at different areas, plus an aoe skill that is also ranged and being a manaless champion isn't enough for him to survive mid lane against mages? What about Akali ? What does she have to survive lane? Her stealth? Yea..that'll make you easily survive lane against mages and yet she is still fine.

Ketchup25Jan 5, 20161 votes

She has in built sustain, a Q to farm with from range and that Q also makes it easier to last hit. Zed is also supposed to win agains most mages because they have a superior late game. A lot of people think Zed is supposed to be an assasin with no early game pressure what so ever, while they don't realise he needs an early game because he is countered hard by late game/ mid game items so well. Zhonyas for AP champions and QSS/Mercurial Scimitar for AD champions. If he did not have his early game he would be meh in lane and then in late game he would look how the mage he was up against demolish every target because he could not do anything in lane.

YossarianSenseiJan 5, 20162 votes

Akali's 'survival mechanic' used to be she only needed like 12 farm by lvl 6, kind of like current Fizz