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Ivern is the perfect example of going back to the ROOTS (Pun intended) of league of legends

Best Fiddle··54 votes·14,908 views

I looked at this dude's skills, and played him in the jungle recently. Figured something out, he's what today's champions should be following. More ACTUAL **skill **involved and openings for counter play, and less on being a champion eraser without any punishments. Seriously, If you actually look at this skinny ass tree's skills, almost all his skills revolve around either strategy or outplay. Nothing has instant death written over his skills.

  • Passive - Ivern doesnt do damage, so he frees buffs with the cost of health and mana. He also either waits for them or smiting instantly. Eventually rewarding allies for buffs as well.

  • Q - Is just a root skill shot, in which you land or miss and if landed, you get REWARDED by closing a short gap and possibly a kill for your team.

  • W - Many ways to outplay by either concealing yourself/teammates in a bush, or using it to get some sneaky kills in.

  • E - A simple shield that explodes and deals damage. Perfectly timed shields can be used to save anyone(Even your ult) or offensively do damage.

  • R - The only substantial damage dealing skill. Summon a monster to deal damage, in which YOU have to maneuver. It can die if focused, but if not, you get REWARDED by having it aid you or allies in knock ups.

80 Comments

StoneSparrow21 votes

Agreed i wish the champs that were relesed had a true theme in mind, not just generic anime champ that does frontflips for big plays. Ivern was unique and refreshing

JackMcSnipeyz13 votes

If anything this thread is a prime example of short term memory of the boards.

Back in the day ivern used to be one of the most hated junglers, a shield slave who just stole your buffs in no effort while building pure utility support items with the budget of a solo laner.

I'm not saying he's OP, but you probably werent around when he was FotM.

Zeromatsu12 votes

That was around the time Ardent censer and adcs were broken. So not really Iverns fault. Any shield and heal support was played at that time and if you had multiple of them you literally got free win. I think Lulu mid and Karma top was a thing back then too even in pro play.

iDarkWind2 votes

Yes, that was one of the reasons, but not only that. It isn't easy to balance a champion with the gold income of a Jungler that builds extremly cheap items like the support items and that scales very well as a peel machine that also offers decent utility.

What JackMcSnipeyz said is totally right. It was even the boards itself that actually made a lot of threads complaining how "retard" Ivern was back then.

PapaGreg211 votes

Ivern was hated because Daisy was incredibly powerful and tanky and could regen health incredibly fast once out of combat. They nerfed the crap out of Daisy and made her lose regen so he's now much more balanced.

Mast3rShake1 votes

{quoted}

Ivern was hated because Daisy was incredibly powerful and tanky and could regen health incredibly fast once out of combat. They nerfed the crap out of Daisy and made her lose regen so he's now much more balanced.

lol, daisy was crap and that is not what made ivern strong

PapaGreg211 votes

You writing skills are on the same level as a hobo child.

RIP Tahm Kench1 votes

Even now, I still absolutely loathe playing against Ivern. Start blue? Somehow he knows this and will use his passive on his blue, then walk over and smite steal your red. Same thing if you try starting red. Now that he's done that, both of your buffs are respawning at the same time, and you have to make a 50/50 guess at which one Ivern will try to take in 5 minutes.

I hate him so god damn much, but he's in such a weak spot that it doesn't make sense to ban him even though he's always a permaban in my heart.

rtbf2216514128 votes

Rengar Ivern Botlane.

You are welcome.

HungryAngry2SPP1 votes

Maokai Ivern

grarrrg3 votes

{quoted}

Rengar Ivern Botlane.

You are welcome.

Super-jumps from brush+brush on demand > "the Cat-apult"

Fízz v25 votes

"more actual skill involved" - champion that spams point and click shield and lets his rock thing that he cant control do stuff to be useful heh

remakoro27 votes

What other kind of shields you fucking want? Lux has shielding skillshot but everyone keep calling her e-girl no-skill champion.

I guess spamming point and click skills for 80% of someones HP is much more skillful for you.

Fízz v22 votes

They could have a delay or be a skillshot like Lux or have some other counterplay.. you know.. like most damage spells :]

Warlord Rhinark13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-07-14T13:34:19.605+0000)

They could have a delay or be a skillshot like Lux or have some other counterplay.. you know.. like most damage spells :]

It is delayed.

The counterplay is not being near the shielded target when it explodes.

Fízz v21 votes

Not the 400 hp shield + aery + Grail shield LUL

Warlord Rhinark9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-14T14:25:45.277+0000)

Not the 400 hp shield + aery + Grail shield LUL

What do you mean?

I didn't say anything about the shield strength.

You asked for counterplay against the damage, and I mentioned some counterplay against the damage.

Fízz v21 votes

Nah I was asking for shields to have counterplay like most damage spells do. because pressing E for an instant shield every 4.8 seconds =/= very skilled lel

Everyone complained about Ivern and his 0 counterplay shield but now that he isnt broken anymore he is the perfect champ :thinking:

Warlord Rhinark12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=0001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-14T14:33:53.684+0000)

Nah I was asking for shields to have counterplay like most damage spells do. because pressing E for an instant shield every 4.8 seconds =/= very skilled lel

Everyone complained about Ivern and his 0 counterplay shield but now that he isnt broken anymore he is the perfect champ :thinking:

Yeah because it's not like point and click damage exists right?

Fízz v21 votes

Not all damage is point and click, all shields (shields that actually matter) have 0 counterplay except Lux lul

Warlord Rhinark6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-14T14:40:28.462+0000)

Not all damage is point and click, all shields (shields that actually matter) have 0 counterplay except Lux lul

Most of those "shields that actually matter" got their durations nerfed and shield power on support items got nerfed as well.

The only one that was untouched was Ivern, who also suffers from loss of shield power and especially suffers from the removal of Tracker's Knife (he's basically a support that can't ward)

remakoro2 votes

Cuz nerfed duration on Ivern shield can be arguably considered as a buff. Cuz for dmg + slow his shield has to expire.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

the damage is pretty pitiful to begin with too.

ZephyrDrake4 votes

so... make every single champion a support champion that is completely useless since most items and runes + masteries that aren't support focused don't really work well with you? ok

Best Fiddle18 votes

{quoted}

so... make every single champion a support champion that is completely useless since most items and runes + masteries that aren't support focused don't really work well with you? ok

No. Take a look at Pyke for example. He has damage skills, but they are a hit or miss and have CLEAR indicating weaknesses or strengths unlike most assassins today, who have a point and click erase-you-in-a-second abilities.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Fiddle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-07-14T13:50:48.754+0000)

No. Take a look at Pyke for example. He has damage skills, but they are a hit or miss and have CLEAR indicating weaknesses or strengths unlike most assassins today, who have a point and click erase-you-in-a-second abilities.

it's like Pyke is a support first and an assassin second. Other Assassins have very little (if any) CC on their kits unlike Pyke that has stupid amounts when compared to other assassins... if you want an assassin with stupid amounts of CC that is also able to 1v1 you and destroy you then that would be stupidly broken and it's the reason Pyke is not able to do that

Crescent Dusk4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Fiddle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-07-14T13:50:48.754+0000)

No. Take a look at Pyke for example. He has damage skills, but they are a hit or miss and have CLEAR indicating weaknesses or strengths unlike most assassins today, who have a point and click erase-you-in-a-second abilities.

Most assassins don't have the survivability or CC of Pyke.

BLIGHTBRINGER2 votes

Most Assassin's make use of their multiple dashes for survivability, as they allow them to perfectly disengage.

Zed R Secondary Active (has no range limit) Khazix Evolved E Reset Leblanc Double W dash & return at her disposal Talon E Wall dash

Crescent Dusk1 votes

lmao wall dash now that's some bullshit as if every teamfight and ADC playing against a talon would even come close to a wall so they can easily get engaged on.

You can't dash or move when you get stunned/silenced/polymorphed the moment you even engage on a mage or assassin, and if you R out immediately as Zed then your mark will do no damage whatsoever.

LeBlanc's dash even telegraphs where she's going to return so they can shoot a CC at the the direction of her return as she has to do it anyways or dies in 3 seconds to a bruiser.

There's a reason most of those champs aren't even seeing pro play when it's so much better to just grab something that can CC things to death while the Kaisa or Heimer or Swain blow shit up.

All these bot lane whiners when most games still live and die by bot lane and jungle. A fed Xayah or Kaisa is still as retarded as ever and far more useful than any midlane assassin can hope to have impact in a game.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

Good thing there's items that help you deal with that right?

item 3814 item 3026 item 3102 item 3157

As for beint frustrated with Kai'Sa I can understand, her kit isn't going to be balanced no matter what the numbers are, the concept of her being able to upgrade all of her abilities is quite questionable regardless if she needs the items to do so (but I assume it's a case of rewarded or punished).

Crescent Dusk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=000200000001000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-15T06:01:17.226+0000)

Good thing there's items that help you deal with that right?

item 3814 item 3026 item 3102 item 3157

As for beint frustrated with Kai'Sa I can understand, her kit isn't going to be balanced no matter what the numbers are, the concept of her being able to upgrade all of her abilities is quite questionable regardless if she needs the items to do so (but I assume it's a case of rewarded or punished).

You'll only have GA as a third or fourth item if you want to be relevant damage at all in any tf to begin with, and as I already said before with GA AD assassins get jackshit from it because the moment you come back to life you are 2 shot anyways. Edge of night blocks a single spell and competes with GA as you need duskblade, youmus, black cleaver, mobility boots and it's either GA or edge. And that leaves you with virtually no MR so if you wanted maw of malmortius from a hexdrinker to even survive a mage burst, you have to pick and choose.

As opposed to AP mages who can get both MR and armor and Zhonya's an immensely superior item to GA as it not only gives armor but offensive stats to boot on top of an immunity.

Melee assassins are pretty hot garbage against any remotely organized group right now because bruisers and battle mages are so strong on top of an abundance of shield+CC supports and junglers.

The moment I go in for an ADC or mage the enemy xin zhao looks at me and I'm CC'd for 1+ second and dead before I can even do anything with the ult assuming I even got off my ult.

So I'd much rather play a mage since all you have to do is not feed in lane, farm up to teamfight phase and you'll be supremely more useful.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

The things you listed about the problematic things of being an Assassin ("2 shoted" "CC'ed" and having to choose between having more Offense Power or sacrificing it for more defense).

These type of problems are also applied for marksman, why do you often see that Marksman never buy defensive items in most cases because they are by default the squishiest role and buying defenses won't make a difference. Which is why they buy full Damage and attempt to provide it as much as they can before being deleted by any kind of Assassin.

I guess that's just something Assassins and Marksman have to deal with. Marksman and Assassin's can't be tanky and deal damage at the same time, their damage has a cost of being squishy.

EDIT: I'm a Vaarus main and I stopped playing him atm because of these kind of problems but I will wait out when the damage in this game will potentially cool down one day.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

The obvious point here being ADC's have range and are not useless in sieging because you will still melt the tanks.

Assassins virtually are worth nothing if they can't go in and 2-shot an ADC or mage before they themselves are deleted.

The only assassin who can avoid this is Zed because of his shadow return mechanism. Once Diana or Talon go in, they are dying. It's why you see Talon all over soloQ but completely absent in pro play.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Fiddle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-07-14T13:50:48.754+0000)

No. Take a look at Pyke for example. He has damage skills, but they are a hit or miss and have CLEAR indicating weaknesses or strengths unlike most assassins today, who have a point and click erase-you-in-a-second abilities.

Like wut? are you like confusing adc with assassin? like what assassin doesn't rely on skill shots ...

Provengreil40 votes

pyke is the best assassin in league today because he actually has to use, and land, his kit, and each skill has multiple use cases when doing so, but those use cases are rarely both used at once.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

pyke is the best assassin in league today because he actually has to use, and land, his kit, and each skill has multiple use cases when doing so, but those use cases are rarely both used at once.

"best assassin in league" not even close. He is a terrible assassin that cannot duel anyone unless stupidly fed. He is a great mix of support and assassin where he has damage similar to an assassin but also the utility that is very close to a support.

It Hertz When IP38 votes

I don't think he meant "best" as in strongest, but "best" as in "best design".

Provengreil4 votes

It's this. I apologize for lack of clarity. he may be an assassin but, as a support design, he cannot nor should he solo people.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=It Hertz When IP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-14T15:08:27.405+0000)

I don't think he meant "best" as in strongest, but "best" as in "best design".

"best design" not even close either. His "best design" comes from his SUPPORT abilities. You want every single assassin to have stupid amounts of CC? Riot even said that they would take away Pyke's assassin's part of the kit if they cannot balanced him as a supportive assassin. Sorry you don't like assassins doing their job

TrikzterzArma2 votes

{quoted}

"best design" not even close either. His "best design" comes from his SUPPORT abilities. You want every single assassin to have stupid amounts of CC? Riot even said that they would take away Pyke's assassin's part of the kit if they cannot balanced him as a supportive assassin. Sorry you don't like assassins doing their job

What the fuck are you even talking about?

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

What the fuck are you even talking about?

what are YOU talking about? Pyke is an SUPPORT first and an ASSASSIN second. Assassins do not have the CC that Pyke has which is why pyke doesn't do your typical assassin things, since you know he actually has to give up something for the CC and utility he provides.

TrikzterzArma1 votes

I guess Fizz and Diana aren't assassins then. I mean, they have hard-cc

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

I guess Fizz and Diana aren't assassins then. I mean, they have hard-cc

Diana for how she plays? No she isn't an assassin. Fizz's hard CC is tied to a slow moving ult that is only effective from a distance. Even if you wanted to say and argue that Diana is an assassin neither her, Fizz or Ekko (another assassin with hard CC) have the amount of CC or utility that Pyke has

Bob the Toastr6 votes

Why should assassins be able to duel people?

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxEWEAEX,comment-id=0002000100000001,timestamp=2018-07-14T19:52:37.986+0000)

Why should assassins be able to duel people?

why shouldn't they be able to duel them? it's literally something that has been a thing for the class as a whole. being able to 1v1 targets in an effective matter.

Arcane Blue Boi7 votes

um... no? Thats a job for juggernauts and bruisers. An assassin's job used to be lurking arround a fight and waiting the best oportinity ;waiting some wasted cooldowns, remember the ''ALL SAVE STUNS FOR KATA'' but then nobody did and she penta'd?, or some squishy to be fighting with someone else; to kill the squishy, and then run away. A quick burst of damage is their job, along with high mobility, thats different from dueling... Jax for example is a dueler, or Tryndamere, Usually champions that can splitpush are good at dueling, because they can 1v1 anybody that comes to defend them

iDarkWind4 votes

Yes, he may not one shot you, but as far I remenber, after two weeks out, people realized how to actually play him, and he was busted af. Just because he doesn't do insane damage, it doesn't mean anything. His spammable shield was abnoxious, his utility brought by his ultimate but especially his Q was really hard to deal with too. No one that actually faced Ivern when he was strong (before Riot nerfed him because the community on boards actually did complain about him quite frequently) will tell you that he should be a model for new champions.

The King Diamond4 votes

Ivern is a great champion tho. And I even havn't played him yet, seriously. But I love when he is on my team. Too bad that after that Daisy and E nerfs (and new runes) he lost his power. But still, love for Ivern.

Mast3rShake2 votes

he is the least played champ in the game

Crescent Dusk2 votes

{quoted}

he is the least played champ in the game

With good reason, he can't duel at all so he relies on teammates to help him counter invades, and in soloQ most people are autistic farmers who don't look at the map.

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