@Riot, LCS viewers should NOT be the primary goal in mind

Best Fiddle·Jul 19, 2018·132 votes·20,283 views

After having read GhostCrawler's most recent post on making sure to attend towards the LCS viewers, it begs the question. Exactly how much do those viewers really know about the game? Do they even care about the state of the game?

Why do so many viewers seem to be having fun watching a game, in which we, the actual players, CLEARLY see it shooting itself in the foot? Everyday we see posts about the same exact bullshit, regarding balance issues, yet we go unheard. So, why are thousands of LCS viewers the primary goal to attract the game to, when your majority (the fan base that actually plays the game and is the very backbone of the game) gets the boot?

Have we become so irrelevant, that even if we speak on these boards, (which are the actual game boards and not a third party source) get no replies at all by ANY other Riot staff? Not even just one?

LCS viewers did NOT build this game, we the actual game-goers did. We helped you build the game's very foundations, not LCS viewers. The people "crying and complaining" all these years, are ACTUALLY the people who carry a lot more value, than the masses of anonymous viewers, who probably only view the game, after getting bored with overwatch or fortcrap.

Also, we should not have to open Reddit, just to see game changing news. Im pretty sure, that we deserve to be informed of changes before any third party audience.

Riot will end up looking like the following if they don't give this crap up:

http://i67.tinypic.com/6i9t6p.jpg

125 Comments

BeatzBoyFTWJul 19, 201847 votes

I bet $1000 that 80% of the viewers there probably played League only twice per week & doesn't give a shit about balance and climbing.

Best FiddleJul 19, 201822 votes

{quoted}

I bet $1000 that 80% of the viewers there probably played League only twice per week & doesn't give a shit about balance and climbing.

Well that's quick money off that bet.

saltranJul 19, 20189 votes

I bet $1000 that 80% of the ppl that post on Gameplay probably plays League only twice per week and ARAM games, they doesn't give a shit about balance and climbing.

saltranJul 19, 20186 votes

-10 only? Disappointing as always.

AtmosphereJul 19, 201811 votes

I gave you another, don't worry, we'll get you there [slayer-jinx-wink]

KeevalroyJul 19, 201841 votes

Maybe they'll stop with this delusion of grandeur that League is somehow going to be a global sport that lats generations...

You know why basketball, baseball, and soccer are as long-lasting as they are Riot? You didn't get it then, you didn't get it as your views and population started to tank, so maybe you'll get it through your thick heads now. They're long-lasting because the rules didn't radically shift and change on the whims of the creators every fucking year, with obscure rule changes being thrown in and out at random in order to make it more exciting to watch.

You're killing your game with this crap you started at the end of season 5 and need to either revert virtually everything you've done since then, or at the very LEAST, just stop with the asinine changes for the sake of change in a sad attempt to make pro play more watchable. If people were interested in watching, they'll watch. If they aren't, don't try to incentivize them - they aren't interested for a reason, a reason that shouldn't be "solved" by trying to turn the game into a fucking Michael Bay movie. He's recognized as a shit director for a reason.

japhibJul 19, 201810 votes

You're killing your game with this crap you started at the end of season 5 and need to either revert virtually everything you've done since then

See, this is why I think a "classic mode" where people can play on some unchanging previous patch would be successful.

KeevalroyJul 19, 20184 votes

I agree, however, some sort of compromise would need to be made without it turning into a slippery slope.

Like I would love it if we could go back to 5.14 since I believe it was by far the healthiest time of League...but I also want the Season 4 Ahri. Not everyone is going to agree with me, and I know people like SwiftKitten want to go back to Season 4, which I would say is fine as well, but not for everyone who's interested in going backwards. So then the question of "what do we want?" is going to take a long period of discussing, arguing, compromising, and complaining before a majority can agree on anything...like an obscenely long period of time...

It's possible that an agreement can be made to not go to a specific patch, but to create a new one, but there would need to be an ongoing assembly of players who want to go through with this to host a ridiculous amount of surveys about what would be included like:

"Okay we finished our 300 surveys about champion kits and what we decided we want included, so now we can move on to items: first, on the subject of previously removed items, do we want Runic Bulwark? Yes, Yes, but nerf it, No, but I can live with it, Absolutely not, or Potato?" Followed by:

_"Since half of you dumbshits keep picking Potato every survey, we can assume you don't care - we'd like to remove that option, but some people like being stupid so we'll have a vote later, but for the second highest, you want Bulwark, but would want to nerf it, so how? Nerf Cost, Nerf Health, Nerf resistances, or Keep resistances and just nerf the aura?" _

If we lived in an ideal world, this would be something we can do, and would create the "player-accepted" game state of our dreams...but we don't, and it would turn into Congress where hard-line ~~party~~ class elitists won't budge if they feel they're being mistreated and nothing would get off the ground. We would unfortunately need to accept that this would be a game state that hardly ever changes, which is problematic. For example, in 5.14, Sej and Grag were permabanned. Rather than essentially removing them from the game, they might need balance adjustments, and that opens up another slippery sloped path for where balance priorities are placed and "how much is too much" when changes are being made?

I do like the idea that we have a classic server for people who are outraged by Riot's direction, and do want this to happen, but we would need to be careful what we wish for.

HaIlMonitorJul 19, 20182 votes

That sounds like a good idea on paper to have players balance the game, but then it comes down to which player base has the most players. If mages are the most played, in general they would be the strongest. If Supports and Mids both always voted to strengthen them that is.

NaonJul 19, 201836 votes

Even LCS viewship is taking a dive over the years. People are getting tired of seeing the same champs picked to 100-0 someone and it's just gotten even faster each season that it happens.

There is no real "surprise" or outplaying anyone. "Everyone" has a dash or blink to forgive them misplaying something awful so they can get out unpunished.

If there is an offshot meta pick you can almost be certain that once LCS ends, that champ will go up on the chopping block for nerfs.

D4rkBlu3Jul 19, 201815 votes

You are right , Riot's next every new released champion or reworked champion will have 100k dashes , blinks , jumps etc.. This kinda nerfs older champion that doesnt have dash and have many skill shots , as example: velkoz.. With velkoz it gets harder and harder to land skillshot verus pyke , kaisa , akali (new) etc... Riot need to chill with making champions with high mobility.

Stevev45Jul 19, 20188 votes

{quoted}

You are right , Riot's next every new released champion or reworked champion will have 100k dashes , blinks , jumps etc.. This kinda nerfs older champion that doesnt have dash and have many skill shots , as example: velkoz.. With velkoz it gets harder and harder to land skillshot verus pyke , kaisa , akali (new) etc... Riot need to chill with making champions with high mobility.

Too late

GigglesOJul 19, 20186 votes

There is nothing exciting about watching the same champions 100-0 the enemy every game. IT would be like watching football where the frontliners don't protect the QB, and the QB just keeps getting pummeled every single game.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 19, 201822 votes

Even if LCS is ''fun to watch'', i feel like the game is too complicated at that level for you to really undesrtand whats happening with your knowledge alone, unless you are high diamond (even then...)/masters/challengers. So it leads me to the conclusion that people watch it just for the entertainment, not for educational purposes, which if they do they need to stop because most things pros do is because they are pros and should not be immitated.

So, riot insists to make every champion flashy so it can entertain, and feel good to watch or play, but be annoying to play against (the epidemy of this is he who will not be named whose dash is 0.1 cd, result people love to play him, hate to play against him or with him).

I dont think they have the notion lcs viewers are only 70 000~ average (totally guessing), while there are many more millions that only play the game and dont care about watching a game, as its not informative to do so without a breakdown of what the fuck is actually happening (which atleast western casters dont give a fuck about, they just relate about stuff like CS or some team being more ahead, who actually cares about jungle routes and why that will impact the game the way it will LUL)

I kind of lost myself in my train of thought but yeah, if riot keeps balancing the game to LCS viewers, do they want their playerbase to be ONLY LCS viewers? Because LCS in its current state is not even worth viewing without a vod review

japhibJul 19, 201810 votes

i feel like the game is too complicated at that level for you to really undesrtand whats happening with your knowledge alone, unless you are high diamond

That's why they have diamond+ level casters that explain the strategy behind the different choices the players make

Mast3rShakeJul 19, 20186 votes

{quoted}

That's why they have diamond+ level casters that explain the strategy behind the different choices the players make

Lol, i love how you got downvoted by this circlejerk. They’re all like i want the game balanced around me YOLOing into the fog of war to chase a low health support. don’t explain to me how to optimally play the game!

Anin777Jul 19, 20186 votes

this makes absolutely no sense. try again.

RaiyzaJul 19, 201819 votes

And this right here, ladies and gents, is why companies encounter a huge drop in customers.

By failing to listen to them.

Smithy2QJul 19, 201818 votes

It's funny, because since they've started balancing to appeal to LCS viewers, those very viewers have stopped watching. GJ Rito.

big boi edriJul 19, 20184 votes

Probably because their LCS viewers are actually players of the game for the vast majority. If you're not playing the game, there is probably an 85/90% chance you're not going to watch it much either.

Zed BossJul 19, 201812 votes

I hate opening reddit just to see some changes happen on this game.....[zombie-brand-facepalm]

I am LomarJul 19, 201810 votes

Implying LCS viewers don't actually play the game.

Last GunfighterJul 19, 20182 votes

I'm sure I'm not the only one who played maybe two hours a week at best yet watched every LCS game

ChargeItDownMidJul 19, 20188 votes

The thing you have to realize is that lcs viewers want the same thing as players the vast majority of the time. The problems in the game stems from poor execution from the balance team. They aren't making the viewing experience better at the expense of the playerbase, they are making both worse and scapegoating the LCS and its viewers.

HeeroTXJul 19, 20183 votes

I disagree. LCS viewers want two things that are fundamentally problematic to players.

VIEWERS want much higher diversity of champions. I understand that SOME players like to keep changing things up and thus ALSO want more diversity of champions, but really, if you're not at Challenger level you're not getting full capability from any champion except MAYBE your main, and one would HOPE there's a reason they're your main. And if you want to play some other champion, then PLAY them and simply "get gud" with them. The pros are gonna play either a champ they personally have "mastered" (Huhi's A.Sol) or "the META". Arbitrarily changing champion power levels simply to enforce diversity in the LCS is a bad balance model picking winners and losers from the playerbase. The "META" should only be changed 1 - 2 times per season for competitive integrity even in the LCS itself (other sports change rules ONLY in the off-season, not DURING the season). Hot-fixing an obvious problem is one thing, but meta shifts simply to improve rate of play for X champions is bad for the players.
VIEWERS want a lot of action. Kills/smite fights/big escapes are fun to watch. Patient farming and vision control are "boring" (the whole cheering wards kills STARTED because an EU game was a LOT of this and viewers had nothing else to "root for"). But here's the thing, that's "the META". The simple fact is that at the absolute top tier of play Late game champions should be better than Early game champions. "Why?" you ask. Because TOP players can farm near perfectly UNDER TOWER. And assuming even levels "Tower+Player" SHOULD be better than "Just Player". This also means that early game is GOING to be a "boring" farm game while the players build up to when their champion is "good" (ie. multiple items). And that is exactly how the game SHOULD be from a play/competitive standpoint. But Viewers want more action, so defenses are nerf'ed until the optimal style becomes "who kills the other one first". All of the recent gameplay changes have been made to encourage more "interaction" between the teams. These changes all but nuke a "defensive" playstyle and make a large number of champions very suboptimal, both of which are negative for players.

ChargeItDownMidJul 19, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. LCS viewers want two things that are fundamentally problematic to players.

VIEWERS want much higher diversity of champions. I understand that SOME players like to keep changing things up and thus ALSO want more diversity of champions, but really, if you're not at Challenger level you're not getting full capability from any champion except MAYBE your main, and one would HOPE there's a reason they're your main. And if you want to play some other champion, then PLAY them and simply "get gud" with them. The pros are gonna play either a champ they personally have "mastered" (Huhi's A.Sol) or "the META". Arbitrarily changing champion power levels simply to enforce diversity in the LCS is a bad balance model picking winners and losers from the playerbase. The "META" should only be changed 1 - 2 times per season for competitive integrity even in the LCS itself (other sports change rules ONLY in the off-season, not DURING the season). Hot-fixing an obvious problem is one thing, but meta shifts simply to improve rate of play for X champions is bad for the players.

You are confusing what LCS viewers want with what riot is doing. LCS viewers do not want arbitrary changes just to cycle champions in pro play. LCS viewers want a balanced game where a large number of champions are at generally the same power level. This is in line with what the playerbase wants for their own games as well.

The way that riot is handling balance is hurting both the LCS viewers and the playerbase. However, the balance team is just using LCS as a scapegoat for their mistakes and people are buying the excuse.

VIEWERS want a lot of action. Kills/smite fights/big escapes are fun to watch. Patient farming and vision control are "boring" (the whole cheering wards kills STARTED because an EU game was a LOT of this and viewers had nothing else to "root for"). But here's the thing, that's "the META". The simple fact is that at the absolute top tier of play Late game champions should be better than Early game champions. "Why?" you ask. Because TOP players can farm near perfectly UNDER TOWER. And assuming even levels "Tower+Player" SHOULD be better than "Just Player". This also means that early game is GOING to be a "boring" farm game while the players build up to when their champion is "good" (ie. multiple items). And that is exactly how the game SHOULD be from a play/competitive standpoint. But Viewers want more action, so defenses are nerf'ed until the optimal style becomes "who kills the other one first". All of the recent gameplay changes have been made to encourage more "interaction" between the teams. These changes all but nuke a "defensive" playstyle and make a large number of champions very suboptimal, both of which are negative for players.

Both viewers and players want action. Standing at a tower and waveclearing is just as boring to play as it is to watch. That being said, making towers paper thin an snowballing the game out of control was the wrong way of solving the problem and not what LCS viewers wanted either. In fact, those changes have made the game boring to watch.

Again, you are confusing what viewers want with how riot handled the balancing. Riot completely botched game balancing when they nerfed towers. However, instead of admitting they messed up, they are letting LCS be a convenient scapegoat.

Everyone is talking about how the game is boring to play but seems to forget that the game has also become more boring to watch. Viewership for LCS is at an all time low in a large part to the current balance problems. The vast majority of the current balance problems are not left in the game because they make LCS more fun to watch, they are there due to the incompetence of the balance team.

WyrmbladeJul 19, 20188 votes

It doesn't even make sense to ruin the game for LCS because who's going to keep watching it after they quit? I haven't payed attention to it for one second in the six months since I quit.

SuspirianJul 20, 20188 votes

Riot needs to understand that people don't watch LCS for entertainment value alone. Yes, it's entertaining but it's not like Football, Hockey, Soccer or Basketball where you can watch the sport and mostly understand it without ever having played it. I'm pretty sure most viewers watch LCS to watch a game they love playing being played at the highest level -- NOT for pure entertainment alone like the other sports. So by this, I would wager that number of LCS viewers is a direct function of number of active SR players.

But it seems like Riot is under the impression that if they balance the game to make pro games more like an exciting clown fiesta, they can attract more players and more casuals and new players into playing the game. They are reversing cause and effect. People watch LCS because they love playing league.

So if they balance towards 25 minute LCS games and forcing pro players to take risks and fight eachother, this is just going to make the game unfun and snowbally in solo queue and cause people to stop playing which will backfire and reduce LCS views.

I am not saying they should balance for bronze or silver, but they should really stop balancing the game around LCS with organized teams instead of balancing around something like challenger/master solo queue.

japhibJul 19, 20187 votes

The only reason Riot brings up LCS viewers as someone to consider in making the game interesting is to make the argument that changes specific to LCS impact more than just than just the players themselves.

Im pretty sure, that we deserve to be informed of changes before any third party audience.

Hence surrenderat20.net and Meddler's several-times-per-week "Quick Gameplay Thoughts" giving context on most changes and answering a bunch of questions.

Have we become so irrelevant, that even if we speak on these boards, (which are the actual game boards and not a third party source) get no replies at all by ANY other Riot staff? Not even just one?

The reason why Rioters don't post on the boards more often has far more to do with these boards' general tendency towards toxicity, hyperbole, and circlejerk than with our "relevancy." This post isn't toxic but literally like 80% of the other gameplay posts are.

Mast3rShakeJul 19, 20188 votes

his post isnt even factual... he omits things that were said in order to back his personal opinion

Anin777Jul 19, 201811 votes

The problem is that it doesn't matter whether there are well thought out rebuttals to these changes. They push them anyway. How would you feel if someone presents a package and says "take this cake made with salt because sugar isn't good". You naturally say, "well cake is meant to be sweet. maybe try using something else that is sweet but healthier than sugar?". Then you still get the cake made with salt anyways. Like I'm happy Riot is giving context but it doesn't stop the changes from being shit and there in lies the source of toxicity. Knowing we will continue to have these changes rammed down our throats without being able to do anything. That's insulting. That's toxicity incarnate.

ModAcademy KaynJul 19, 20187 votes

LCS viewers did NOT build this game, we the actual game-goers did.

Because watching LCS definitely means that you don't play League. I love the elitism in this post, as if you're somehow better than someone else just because "You don't watch LCS" or "We were here before they were", and you deserve something because of it.

Anin777Jul 19, 20187 votes

Lool you are missing the point. most of these LCS viewers are fairly recent. meaning those who have been here for about 4+ seasons are not being the ones catered to. It's not elitism, it's common sense. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

ModAcademy KaynJul 19, 20182 votes

Except that the assumption that it is only new players who watch LCS is the wrong one. You have no proof that only people that recently joined the game are the ones watching LCS, nor do you have proof that everyone who was apart of the game before LCS came to be, entirely hate the state of the game as well.

The post is based on assumption. You have no proof to back any claim that the game is being catered to new players, since you can't prove that LCS viewer ship is comprised out of only new players.

GripaAviaraJul 19, 20185 votes

I don't know what to say, it's total bullshit from riot's part. Majority of LCS viewers clearly play the game. I, for example, don't like seeing fights end in 2 sec since basically, it's the most exciting thing to watch in a game (i mean who loves watching them farming?). Longer fights are great to watch, yet now a TF is done in 3 seconds so I don't know where the hell they get their focus group but something is not right

Somber RitesJul 20, 20185 votes

Nice post but that "Fortcrap" was a stretch. I'd go with something like "Fortshite", because at least then it kind of rhymes.

(It's a shame Fortnite got so popular too, BR has given the entire game a stigma with people between the ages of 17 and 25, so now I can't find anyone in my age group to play Save the World with me. ;v;)

AmazoXJul 19, 20184 votes

I think Doublelift's recent video about the game perfectly summed up how League of Legends should be, fewer changes every week and only bigger changes every 2-3 month.

It would actually make the game more enjoyable and add more capacity to learning new curves and mastering instead of learning every single change every 2-3 weeks.

Dota 2 did this and the game was completely fine with great playerbase, audience & happiness with of course a bit of Russian cyka blyat thrown in the Solo Q.

Last GunfighterJul 19, 20184 votes

I've spent tons of money on esports merch and in-game icons. I watched more pro play than I actually played. I stopped watching the second marksmen were killed. [zombie-brand-clap]

Riot acts like the core audience wants to see crazy fiestas, but I know I'm not the only one who appreciates the steady strategic side. The game is too volatile to be enjoyable, and Riot completely missed the point of what makes the LCS different from other esports.

TobykachuJul 20, 20184 votes

I feel like if this is their aim, they still failed to actually achieve this. I used to watch competitive League of Legends every day. Even when people spammed ResidentSleeper in the chat, due to supposedly boring and repetitive games, I still enjoyed watching out for the smaller things. The things that makes the pros pro. How they'd position in lane, when they'd go to wards, the kinds of items they'd build into specific match-ups. But now in League of damage it just feels like the smaller nuances are borderline non existent. Just pick a champion and wait for the enemy to position poorly or make a poor engage, and just 100 - 0 them before they get a chance to react. I haven't watched a single pro game in months as a result of this and I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt like this.

SuspirianJul 20, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I feel like if this is their aim, they still failed to actually achieve this. I used to watch competitive League of Legends every day. Even when people spammed ResidentSleeper in the chat, due to supposedly boring and repetitive games, I still enjoyed watching out for the smaller things. The things that makes the pros pro. How they'd position in lane, when they'd go to wards, the kinds of items they'd build into specific match-ups. But now in League of damage it just feels like the smaller nuances are borderline non existent. Just pick a champion and wait for the enemy to position poorly or make a poor engage, and just 100 - 0 them before they get a chance to react. I haven't watched a single pro game in months as a result of this and I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt like this.

Amen. I don't watch LCS to see clown fiestas of non-stop action and 10 kills a minute. I watch LCS to see players play at highest level. I want to see them play a wide variety of champions being picked and viable situationally for a strategy, not Riot simply forcing a meta to a different form of fiesta every 4 months.

deadlychuckJul 20, 20182 votes

I think that this post doesn't quite frame the problem right.

It's not that they they're designing the game for people to watch, rather than play, it's that they're trying to create a gameplay experience which is similar to that of the gameplay that people view. The problem is that people tend to view the highest skill players (pro players), the smurfing players (streamers), and montage style videos where you only see the action and not the build up, down time, or failures.

geekloveJul 20, 20184 votes

I wouldn't watch a sport unless I was a fan. Sports fans tend to be knowledgeable about the sports they watch. All the people who claim veiwers don't actually know what's going on in the game, are plain wrong. Obviously you're a bunch of nerds who don't watch sports.

If someone is watching pros play, maybe they're watching just for fun. But if they have half a brain, they're also watching to learn. Watching pros play League is edutainment.

League of Legends is based on an even more successful game, DotA. DotA has gone through so many iterations and so many patches. So many new heros over the years, so many new items. DotA was so successful there's an entire genre of copy cats, MOBA games. League is still missing a lot of what made DotA great, like creep pulling and denying.

rtbf225618241Jul 19, 20183 votes

Because it's kind of like fireworks. Many viewers that don't play the game just want to see cool explosions, healthbars getting bursted cuz "LCS BIG PLAYYYYSSSS" when it's just busted bullshit without them knowing better and Riot cashes in on that stupid "Oohhh cool shiny lights!"

Furious DelishaJul 19, 20183 votes

This is a classic cart before the horse situation. E-sports happens because a group of competitive fans in a popular game want to organize a stage to see who is the best in their favorite game.

Esports is NOT a platform to create a game around. The game must be fun first, then people seek the competitive scene. People don't seek esports of games they don't care about, much like how people who don't play rugby will also not watch professional rugby.

Examples of good E-sports scenes: Starcraft Broodwar Super Smash Brothers Melee Dota 2

Examples of bad E-sports scenes: Overwatch League of Legends Overwatch Overwatch

Automated RivenJul 20, 20182 votes

I don't mind Starcraft 2 esports. It's well put together. The game is damn near the most balanced game in existence. And it's competitive.

Furious DelishaJul 20, 20181 votes

Okay, it's kinda not fair for me to put SC2 there when it's been so many years, but I remember when they were patching the crap out of everything for the sake of esports it was such a shitfest. Surely it's better now. I'll remove it from the list.

Automated RivenJul 20, 20184 votes

Well they do patch for esports, the game is balanced around the highest competition, but IMHO in that specific type of game where it is balanced around the highest level of play and you only have your own skill to fall back on, having the game balanced around the highest level is good. Because the only way to climb over percieved unbalanced (mass carries for example) is to get better at the game. Which is how climbing in ranked should happen.

However I don't feel like they make specific changes to 'shake up the meta' on a regular basis.

Furious DelishaJul 20, 20182 votes

That's true. You're right. I take it back.

But overwatch and league tho [sg-lulu]

ShablagooJul 20, 20183 votes

I think people who watch the game would play it, or else how would they know whats going on. I think a lot of them play in fact, they may even play more than normals, just because you dont watch the LCS and play doesnt mean that this demograph is bigger, proof of that is reddit, a lot of it is actually LCS related news. So I think a lot of LCS viewers play and care about the game.

I Want VacationJul 20, 20183 votes

I never watch lcs if I’m taking a break from this game. Not playing=no viewing They ruining the game for competitive play. 15 min of stompping or getting stomped with very minimal chance to comeback every game in solo q. Yay super fun XD