Grasp reverted, BC reverted, scorch nerfed by 10 damage starting, nerfs: kayle, mf, leona

Weedbro·Dec 11, 2017·26 votes·7,826 views

12/11 PBE Update

[darius-angry]

135 Comments

Illâoi Evê SiônDec 11, 201728 votes

Happy Black Cleaver is reverted. They're supposed to be lowering damage, not buffing Fighters to keep up.

ReformedfindlayDec 12, 201724 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xayâh Bôt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=du7jH0vy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:01:59.891+0000)

Happy Black Cleaver is reverted. They're supposed to be lowering damage, not buffing Fighters to keep up.

Then where exactly are the fucking ADC nerfs?

All I see is sadness for assassins and maybe Miss Fortune.

AbibyamaDec 12, 20174 votes

Because maybe, the only ADC that dominates right now are poke ADC? Geez man I dunno MF got hard nerfed, sorcery got hard nerfed too

Unless you’re talking about twitch

Troll for TrumpDec 12, 201710 votes

It's not just "now" ADCs are always a thing

ThefrostyvikingDec 12, 20172 votes

How are marksmen a problem? O_O

Every single one of them except 2 have been sitting at 50% or lower, which is a near perfect level of balance for the marksman class.

It means they are viable but not dominant, with the exception of the two that are sitting over 54%

Now if static shiv would be nerfed along with MF losing some damage of her Q and Ezreal......somehow fixed then the class would be more balanced than it ever has been, which is good for everyone.

Except the enhancers who like their hypercarry marksmen OP.

Faceroll TacticsDec 12, 20175 votes

Because they are the only viable class in an entire role and thus kill diversity and enforce a stale meta

ThefrostyvikingDec 12, 20172 votes

Because you cant buff anyone else to be viable without making them absolutely broken x)

Something clearly proven by Cassio,Ryze and Azir, leagues DPS dedicated mages.

Them and mordekaiser&Yasuo who were both intended as botlaners.

There is just no way to make them viable against even a weak marksman+support combo without making them monstrously OP.

And really, if we didn't have marksmen then most of the supports would be really redundant, since most of them were designed from their very core up to protect some weak carry that have no self defense and given abilities appropriate for that, if no such carry exists then you are better of with fighters and mages or skimishers instead.

It would effectively kill of most non damage forms of support there are in the game, along with tank abilties made to protect someone like Braums shield.

For those abilties to be worth anything there has to be something worth protecting, otherwise it's better to go offensively instead.

You´d effectively kill of 2 entire roles like that.

In my view that would be more stale than what we have now, seeing people find the best melee or mage cheese and just constantly snowball botlane uncontrollably, and it would be far worse than botlane since a melee that's fallen behind can't even farm while hiding under turret, as seen toplane.

I am rather thankful current botlane exists, you have 3 different types of support fully viable along with a variety of marksmen that play differently compared to each other.

LordGeovanniDec 12, 20172 votes

if that is true you should then nerf the mandatory role so that it only does excatly what it needs to. So take towers.

ThefrostyvikingDec 12, 20172 votes

Towers fall like card houses to everyone, having an entire class exclusively dedicated to it is nothing but a waste.

Like we already have a champ that partially specializes in that, ziggs, and he can at some point literally 2 shot a tower from full health, not to mention any character with a auto attack enhancement ability like Nasus Q, yorick Q or etc also rape towers over in seconds.

Any AD champ really, or any AP with enough AP or lichbane.

We don't need any more of that, and towers are useless anyhow.

Besides, if the class only were good for taking towers then everyone else would just pick stuff to win fights and roll right over them.

And then supports and marksmen would end up useless regardless, and so two entire classes of champions would be effectively gone from the game.

So much for diversity x)

LordGeovanniDec 12, 20171 votes

We do have an entire class entitled to that Marksmen just were buffed from season 4 onward to do everyone elses job too. Burst, sustained damage, drain tanking, long trades (but only versus another adc or an assassin where the majority of the long trade is the assassin being invulnerable through invulnerability and being invulnerable through invisibility.)

ThefrostyvikingDec 13, 20171 votes

Marksmen as a whole did not start with any kind of burst until rapidfire+static buffs hit just after the tank class update ._.

Only ones who did it before that were as usual, Vayne and Draven, because given sustained DPS classes the sub class of assasssin is a good idea.

Drain tank? There is no marksman that does that well enough to endure any kind of focused damage from anything except a tank.

Long trades? The only truly DPS oriented class in league are marksmen, and they have been given the damage to kill tanks which naturally results in them killing eachother pretty fast after farming for 10 minutes first.

Only time a long trade happens is when fighting eachother with lifesteal or against a tank who is naturally equipped to endure their damage.

No competent assassin except fizz will let any marksman live beyond 3 seconds unless a janna/lulu+tank sits on said marksman. T

I can clearly tell that you hardly play the marksman role, ever, and have basically no clue how the class works.

I can also tell that you generally lack understanding of the game, the fact that you complain about drain tanking shows just how little you pay attention to current affairs of league.

It's something people stopped talking about after ardent lost the on hit heal, and it's been like.......6-8 patches since then?

Assassin engaging in long trades.....right, the most burst oriented class in league.

That every mage,marksman, support and lategame tank currently flame with a passion because they feel the assassins deal too much damage.

Right.

LordGeovanniDec 14, 20171 votes

technically in any role or class my very best winrate is on marksmen where i win about 70% of my games but i dont enjoy playing them because they shitstomp everything and are so safe that nothing is able to threaten them and even when things are able to threaten them because of their range they are already killing said thin and by time that thing reaches to kill them they only need 2 more attack to die while adcs just drain tank back up. The only time this was true but didnt matter was when Lethality was first reworked along with some assassins because each teams adc would kill about 2 assassins but die to the 3rd since teams were running 3-4 assassin a game not because they were strong but because they were new so nobody played any classes dedicated to protecting adcs so after being focused as if they arent the damage carry adcs cried on the boards and got most of the assassins and their items nerfed. I may come back to talk on those other points if i feel like it.

ThefrostyvikingDec 15, 20171 votes

Are you bronze or what? O_O

Marksmen do none of the things you describe unless monstrously fed, or a few of them when hitting lategame.

And did you even play under the lethality meta?

People played Ziggs instead of actual AD marksmen, because said marksmen were too damn useless, even american challenger/master players like bjerg, qtpie, gosu and others clearly stated that that was the case as well-

Hell, even scarra did, and he is a damn assassin main as far as i know.

Your statements are so far off from reality it's a wonder you can even see what i´ve written,

As for marksmen post the lethality meta, it was only a short time after that that the tank meta started if i don't remember wrongly, and along with it came ardent censer and shortly after, static shiv and RFC buffs.

Massive frontliners shutting down all assassins together with insanely easy but powerful enhancers naturally made the marksmen nigh impossible to kill-

But was any of that done by the marksmen? Nope, they just sat on their hands having clicked on attackmove towards enemy base letting their tanks walk infront.

But that ended, and it was a fairly long time as well, disliking it is fine, it was absolutely obnoxious after all.

But it's over, and you should get over it as well.

Don't be biased and don't go making statement like they are the truth when they directly go against the highest ranked league players, who are better than either of us by miles.

It makes it really hard to take you seriously.

LordGeovanniDec 17, 20171 votes

Lethality meta was all adcs assassins were only ever a thing not because they were effective but because they were new.

ThefrostyvikingDec 17, 20171 votes

ADCS????

Only ones played were Jhin and Varus who had a 35-45% pickrate each when not banned, other than them i think only MF and maybe caitlyn saw a little bit of play.

Quinn? Graves? They are not marksmen by Riot's new and official subclass list.

If talking only champs played then Zed Jayce Khazix Rengar Graves Talon Quinn Nocturne (less than the others) MonkeyKing and JarvanIV .

These are pretty much the entire champ rooster for the lethality meta aside from Jhin/varus and rarely MF/cait.

Everyone, literally everyone, aside from the assassin and Jhin mains hated the meta like a plague, tanks were unplayable, divers were mainly useless, supports were useless, like 75% of the marksmen were useless, all mages were garbage and etc.

Only viable champs were the lethality users, i think i listed most of them.

That's why that meta was and remains one of the most hated in league, because a lot of people like other champs.

LordGeovanniDec 18, 20171 votes

guess what new subclass list that didnt exist at the time. and right when the assassins were nerfed because they were new and people wanted to try them but adcs were crying cause they couldnt kill more than 2 of the 4 assassins that jumped on them before they died adcs became the only class able to be played in every role of the game except support but still took support half the time anyway.

ThefrostyvikingDec 18, 20171 votes

It did, the second edition of subclass lists was made as long as two years ago and posted on the boards.

And you clearly have no idea what you are on about.

Do you know who QTpie,gosu and wildturtle are?

They are some of the best marksmen players in the entirety of NA, at least among the streamers.

They, themselves, literally stated that nearly all marksmen, except Ziggs, Varus and Jhin were hot garbage, just straight up useless, because they died too fast, had no impact, and did no damage compared to others.

All three of them were playing Ziggs, because even jhin and varus were prone to dying instantly due to lack of escapes.

So yeah. nearly every AD marksman was just so useless or hard to play in that meta that Ziggs was the best choice available.

And Scarra, one of the people who helped shape the current kit katarina has, a long time league player that Riot actually listens to, also called the marksmen generally useless under that meta.

Please do contain your bias and quit spewing so much nonsense that stands in direct opposition to what the top league players in the world are saying, it makes it so hard to even believe a single word you say.

And that is completely disregarding the fact that you have been bronze for 3 entire seasons straight, like if you played even half decently in your placements you´d reach silver at least.

Me? I played like shit, lost like 6 outa 10 games but i still performed well enough to reach...silver 1 or 2 just from those games.

So i would know.

LordGeovanniDec 12, 20171 votes

I also am happy black cleaver is reverted. More Penetration is not what is needed for fighters they need to revert the ad nerfs to fighter items not the penetration nerf which does nothing much for fighters but penetrates more for crit acds turning fighters into worse tanks again just for black cleaver stacks for their adc

Imperial JapanDec 12, 20172 votes

They kind of do need armor pen. Playing anything vs tanks up top lane is unfun.

LordGeovanniDec 12, 20172 votes

Only because fighters ad got gutted for fighters and tank items got guttedfor everyone but and bramble vest was introduced. Before bramble vest tanks auto lost top except maokai who could stand to fight back despite damage nerfs because all the other tanks got damage nerfs too because they were accused of doing too much damage to adcs and mages who would have 40-60 over all magic resist and 50-70 armor. while Mages have the single best health item with other stats than health on it in the game. item 3027 As a fighter main I can only dream of a tank item with 800 hp and 80 armor or 100 magic resist (that would be scaling the like of having 100 ap on a 500 health item but instead of working for a mage working for a tank) on it even if that was 3500 gold tanks would buy it every game whether it has great passive good passive bad passive or no passive. Only way tanks or fighters would think that is a trade off is if it has a detrimental passive on it. Mages can afford to complain that item 3027 and item 3003 power scales when it gives a decent chunk for really cheap and it scales to be some of the most powerful items in the game. Mages can afford to complain that item 3089 costs alot just build it 6th slot as a gold drain or build it early to snowball.

DormidonDec 12, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xayâh Bôt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=du7jH0vy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:01:59.891+0000)

Happy Black Cleaver is reverted. They're supposed to be lowering damage, not buffing Fighters to keep up.

LOL they will buff Black Cleaver but in later patch. They just reverted it for brief moment.

SalronDec 11, 201713 votes

Are you implying that scorch, leona, and mf nerfs are a bad thing?

WeedbroDec 11, 201714 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=du7jH0vy,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:44:38.360+0000)

Are you implying that scorch, leona, and mf nerfs are a bad thing?

Nah, I just put darius there for fun. I wish the MF nerf was more substantial, though

DivewingDec 12, 20172 votes

I thought it was because Black Cleaver revert, so Darius is mad cos core item.

Or did I overthink the joke...?

Remlap1223Dec 12, 20171 votes

That MF nerf is pretty brutal, she already has trouble against divers, this is just going to make her more feast or famine.

SalronDec 12, 20177 votes

This nerf is more aimed at support MF/Dorans ring E spam ADC MF than anything though

MF vs divers usually just comes down to positioning and most fights don't last long enough for multiple E casts

AethariDec 12, 201712 votes

As a bruiser main, this was an emotional roller coaster. I don't think grasp should've been reverted. It was the perfect way to tone down tanks a little without completely making the keystone unusable for them, while also giving bruisers a keystone that functions well for them and gives them their much needed sustained damage.

I can admit that while I was happy for the black cleaver buffs, they don't do anything to help the bruiser issue. Bruisers are having problems because they have no keystone that aids them in laning phase anywhere close to the extent that grasp does for tanks. The point when we get cleaver is when we typically start to outscale in the 1v1, provided the gold is relatively even. There's no need to exacerbate the powerspike gives bruisers 1v1/sidelane pressure in the midgame any more than new grasp already did. In addition to that, there are a lot of champions outside of the bruiser/fighter class that would benefit from BC buffs that just don't need that added power right now (for example, Miss Fortune), so yeah.

+1 for BC revert, -10000 for grasp revert.

HelmightDec 12, 20179 votes

I'm guessing that the Grasp revert doesn't mean that it won't be coming, just that Riot didn't feel confident in the current iteration to put it to live without further testing. It'll probably come back in some form or another in 8.1.

RiotRiot MapleNectarDec 12, 201712 votes

+1 to this. While we haven't locked on a specific direction, there's continued experimentation going on. We want to find some solution yet specifically in resolve - but rushing something as large as a keystone change as we headed into the break was a bit too concerning. No timelines yet for when Grasp or some other Keystone may be altered / added at some point, but we need to make sure we find an appealing and effective pattern first.

CritkeeperDec 12, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=du7jH0vy,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T17:45:30.968+0000)

+1 to this. While we haven't locked on a specific direction, there's continued experimentation going on. We want to find some solution yet specifically in resolve - but rushing something as large as a keystone change as we headed into the break was a bit too concerning. No timelines yet for when Grasp or some other Keystone may be altered / added at some point, but we need to make sure we find an appealing and effective pattern first.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LE4wox2k-meddler-what-fighters-need-from-runes-and-items-is-target-agnosticism-and-resilience

More or less, what fighters want out of a keystone is the ability to gain small rewards for fighting so they don't have to attain total victory over an opponent in order to gain an advantage. This is the most important thing that fighters need and that they lack from items or runes, as it is the only thing that could exist to separate them from other roles, which want to pick and choose fights based on the results of victory.

Without something like this to separate fighters from other roles, they would end up being boxed into the patterns of other classes (often like assassins or tanks)

JugelooDec 12, 20171 votes

Hi Maple Nectar!

Sorry for messaging you this way. I just really want a confirmation from a Rioter about what is happening with the High Sierra macOS client. Several post were made about this issue on boards and Reddit. Players on High Sierra experience random crashes ingame almost every time. I've contacted the support team, I'm writing the 17th email in this ticket and we found no solution.

I would be really glad if you could show me any news about that. The game is literally unplayable for High Sierra users and I really don't want to miss this year's snowdonwn event. Downgrading the OS could be a solution but it's not that easy on Mac.

Please, at least verify the issue. Thanks for every effort! :D

RiotRiot MapleNectarDec 12, 20173 votes

Hey man,

While I don't work on any of the teams that would tackle this - I chatted with a few engineers and here's what we're going to try to do.

Use our compatibility lab (basically a room full of computers with all hardware specs), and run League on a mac with the latest Sierra OS.
See if we can consistently repro the splats you're talking about and find what's causing it
Get the bugs assigned out to the correct teams to fix them.

Unfortunately I have no idea what the timeline could look for this, if the crashes are as frequent as you say, maybe it won't be that bad. Thanks for your perseverance, and sorry for your experience :(.

YumaS2AstralDec 12, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=du7jH0vy,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T17:45:30.968+0000)

+1 to this. While we haven't locked on a specific direction, there's continued experimentation going on. We want to find some solution yet specifically in resolve - but rushing something as large as a keystone change as we headed into the break was a bit too concerning. No timelines yet for when Grasp or some other Keystone may be altered / added at some point, but we need to make sure we find an appealing and effective pattern first.

Why don't you make this new version of Grasp a possible new keystone for a future new, 6th rune path?

It would be better than completely replacing current Grasp which is a good keystone for tanks, and a viable alternative for Aftershock. For some tanks Grasp is even better than Aftershock ( Malphite in particular can only use Grasp effectively as his only hard CC is his ult)

Plus it is better to have multiple possible choices. The 6th rune path could also have other keystones and lesser runes for fighters, and even for DoT mages (which are currently lacking a good keystone).

AirKingNeoDec 12, 20177 votes

Why is Cleaver reverted? Seriously? Bruisers were just about to be viable.

I'm assuming Grasp is going to be changed again before in 3 weeks or so when 8.1 launches.

Kayle nerfs? Why? Kayle is just abusing the fact she can proc Lethal Tempo in top lane to ignore lane opponents (using the attack speed on the minion wave) and abusing Manaflow Band (which is already getting nerfed) to spam heal. What about E having lower cooldown meaning I only need max 30% CDR? I like being able to put points into W to potentially survive cancer lanes. Base AD nerfs are fucking hell. She had a hard time jungling before, so why this?

GrReaper96Dec 12, 20178 votes

Maybe Rito finally realised removing damage is better than adding it

AirKingNeoDec 12, 20172 votes

when will tanks stop be immune to damage?

DivewingDec 12, 201711 votes

When ADCs dont murder everything else on sight

AirKingNeoDec 12, 20172 votes

Tanks were broken first. Do you not remember the start of the season?

LordGeovanniDec 12, 20174 votes

adcs been broken for 2 seasons straight from pre season 6 at the ** least**

AirKingNeoDec 13, 20171 votes

Every time I hear this, I'll ask and keep asking: why can I only name off 4-5 broken ADCs then at one time?

Tristana, Twitch, Kalista, Miss Fortune, and Xayah.

Iota ThetaDec 13, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Every time I hear this, I'll ask and keep asking: why can I only name off 4-5 broken ADCs then at one time?

Tristana, Twitch, Kalista, Miss Fortune, and Xayah.

Why can I only name 2-3 broken tanks? Ornn (post W damage change), Maokai.

ParoeDec 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=du7jH0vy,comment-id=00060000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-13T01:17:33.542+0000)

Why can I only name 2-3 broken tanks? Ornn (post W damage change), Maokai.

Maokai is an AP bruiser (you cant argue he has a tank kit; he lost his damage reduction.)
Orrn is melee and extremely easy to outplay. His niche is also "i dont like melees" and he punishes melee champions very hard. That being said, orrn needed an AP ratio on his W not %maxHP damage.

Iota ThetaDec 13, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Maokai is an AP bruiser (you cant argue he has a tank kit; he lost his damage reduction.)

Orrn is melee and extremely easy to outplay. His niche is also "i dont like melees" and he punishes melee champions very hard. That being said, orrn needed an AP ratio on his W not %maxHP damage.

Maokai is still a tank. Just because he doesn’t have damage reduction doesn’t mean he’s not a tank. If that’s the case, WW is more tank than Maokai, but that just isn’t true.

The difference is the purpose of the kit. Maokai’s kit is all about locking someone down (and extra jungle vision). His damage is because his numbers are tuned higher due to his Q being a key farming skill and has flat damage and low CD. He also still builds full tank, whereas Galio, a true AP bruiser, actually builds some AP along with tank items. Maokai does not. Damage reduction/defensive steroid doesn’t make someone a tank, it’s just a survivability ability. His kit still says “I’m a tank and you won’t be going anywhere”. Besides, he also has his heal for survivability.

Ornn is considered by many to be broken. More OP than broken, really, but still. I’m a mastery 6 Ornn, so I know he’s easy to outplay. He was an ideal tank before the change to %max HP, lower damae, could still farm, bugger focus on his utility and CC. The W damage was what sent him over the edge. That being said....no, he didn’t need an AP ratio. He didn’t need any damage buff to his W. His W was already his core skill and offered a lot. His kit was designed to drive players toward the tank build, not a damage build, because, well, need we flashback to full AP Maokai, Malphite, and Amumu?

LordGeovanniDec 14, 20171 votes

Ornns w is op. and its only op because the rest of his kit is garbage that riot decided to make his w op to balance it out instead or dealing with actual problems

Iota ThetaDec 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ornns w is op. and its only op because the rest of his kit is garbage that riot decided to make his w op to balance it out instead or dealing with actual problems

I won’t disagree. I was not thrilled when they made the change from %current to %max on his W, because I suspected it would cause problems. They should’ve tackled his other abilities. I honestly believe he would’ve been fine without that W buff though.

LordGeovanniDec 16, 20172 votes

I knew it would cause problems his current health damage was really decent . he just had no significant damage out side of w and his q was slow his e was slow and conditional and his r is slow and conditional. and he had no way to but items make his damage more decent.

LordGeovanniDec 13, 20171 votes

Caitlyn Ashe Kalista Varus all been broken at times Jinx aoe critting rockets with aoe critting bolts Vayne Draven
have perma broken and toxic kits yes both not one or the other.

KaìjuDec 13, 20172 votes

Name the last time Ashe was broken.

LordGeovanniDec 13, 20171 votes

Last year when she crit off of auto attacking when frost was already on the target. and there were a several masteries that gave her exrtra effects permanatly from early game because they activated of when champions crit more than they did with auto attacks

KaìjuDec 13, 20172 votes

That was removed in patch 5.22 not last year. While you did bring up a time she was abusing something it was over two years ago. She's a problem because the last time she was OP was two years ago?

V5.22 Stats Base attack damage increased to 56.51 from 51.89 Attack damage growth reduced to 2.26 from 2.85 Base mana increased to 280 from 231.8 Mana growth reduced to 32 from 35. Frost Shot.png Frost Shot Slow reduced to 5 / 9 / 13 / 17 / 21 / 25% from 5 / 11 / 17 / 23 / 29 / 35%. Removed: Critical strike icon.png against Frosted targets. New Effect - Critical Slow: Ashe now has a 1% chance per 1% of her critical strike chance to double Frost Shot's Slow icon.png to 10 / 18 / 26 / 34 / 42 / 50% and trigger Critical strike icon.png. The slow decays to the standard amount over the duration. Volley.png Volley will always trigger the enhanced slow versus champions