Yes, you can win more than 50% of your games and go down in MMR.

Mandaari··6 votes·1,411 views

I see Riot repeatedly saying, "As long as you win more games than you lose then you'll keep going up in MMR." I'm going to show this is not the case, I'm going to show it right. This is based off one assumption:

  • If you win as purple you're "expected" to win and gain less MMR than you would have if you were blue, but if you lose you'll lose more MMR. Likewise, a loss on blue causes you to lose less MMR while a win grants more MMR. This is because the blue team has a lower average MMR than purple. This is because MMR is basically the ELO system. Which side is higher or lower MMR is actually irrelevant, but helps for organizational purposes.

Let X be the amount of MMR you gain from winning on purple where X > 0

Let X+ε be the amount of MMR you lose from losing on purple where ε > 0

Let N be the number of games played where N > 0 and N is odd.

Let W be the number of wins on purple and L be the number of losses on purple where:

W = N / 2 + 0.5

L = N / 2 - 0.5

Thus the MMR gained is:

δMMR = WX - L(X+ε)

δMMR = (N/2+0.5)X - (N/2-0.5)(X+ε)

δMMR = X + 0.5ε - Nε/2

Thus the following statement is true:

2X/ε + ε < N implies δMMR < 0

Since X and ε are constant while N is not, the above statement will eventually be true for sufficiently large values of N. This means that you are winning more than half your games and going down in MMR.


But wait, that's an unrealistic scenario! You don't really play all purple games so that doesn't work. Except the argument can be extended to every day scenarios. Here's that proof:

Let X be the amount of MMR you gain from winning on purple and lose from losing on blue where X > 0

Let X+ε be the amount of MMR you lose from losing on purple and gain from winning on blue where ε > 0

Let Wp be the number of wins on purple

Let Lp be the number of losses on purple

Let Wb be the number of wins on blue

Let Lb be the number of losses on blue

Thus the MMR gained is:

δMMR = WpX - Lp(x+ε) + Wb(x+ε) - Lb(X)

Now let's say Wp = Lp = Wb = Lb. This is saying you have a perfectly even distribution of wins and losses among the sides. Now let's say you play one more game on purple and win it. Thus:

Wp - 1 = Lp = Wb = Lb

At this point:

  • You've won more games than you've lost
  • δMMR = X

What we want to do now is keep the total number of games won and lost the same while reducing δMMR. We can do this by either taking a win out of blue side wins (Wb) and into purple side wins (Wp) or by taking a loss out blue side losses (Lb) and into purple side losses (Lp). Doing so will subtract ε from δMMR, represented by:

δMMR = X - εS where S is the number of times you've "shifted" a win or loss.

X/ε < S implies δMMR < 0

So we just need to do this enough times so that X/ε < S. But we have to be certain that we actually can do this enough times:

In the scenario where Wb = 0 or Lb = 0 we can increment all counters by 1 (i.e., play 2 games on each side, winning one and losing the other). The MMR gained by the purple side win will cancel with the blue side loss, and the MMR gained by the blue side win will cancel with the purple side loss. As a result of the 4 new games your MMR hasn't changed. Now we can shift the distribution of wins, hit 0, add 4 more games, rinse and repeat as many times as needed.

Again, this means that your MMR gains are negative, even though you've still won more games than lost.

14 Comments

brad4 votes

despite the fact that you are using very fancy greek letters among other things as variable names it doesnt make your point any more valid if you dont have any sources for anything that you just said

>the quote from riot

>you are 'expected to win on purple side' and 'expected to lose on blue side'

now i didnt look because frankly i dont give two shits, but im willing to bet you made a lot of assumptions in your calculations, and honestly i could debunk your entire essay with this

assuming you play evenly 50% red and blue side and evenly win 50% and lose 50% of your games, your rank will go absolutely nowhere, even if there is a supposed 'you are expected to win on a certain side and lose more ranking if you dont' because the theoretical 'expected loss' and 'expected win' will cancel each other out

Mandaari1 votes

Very fancy Greek letters? This is why people need to not be afraid of math. They're letters. Yes, I could have used any other letters, but those are standard to represent what I wanted them to.

I made a single assumption, which is known to be true.

now i didnt look

Maybe you should look?

assuming you play evenly 50% red and blue side and evenly win 50% and lose 50% of your games, your rank will go absolutely nowhere, even if there is a supposed 'you are expected to win on a certain side and lose more ranking if you dont' because the theoretical 'expected loss' and 'expected win' will cancel each other out

You're right. And if you looked I even stated this. But what you're saying doesn't remotely disprove what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Riot's statement is not always true. What you're saying is not that my statement is not always true as well, but what you're trying to falsely say is that my statement is always false.

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

Very fancy Greek letters? This is why people need to not be afraid of math. They're letters. Yes, I could have used any other letters, but those are standard to represent what I wanted them to.

I made a single assumption, which is known to be true.

Maybe you should look?

You're right. And if you looked I even stated this. But what you're saying doesn't remotely disprove what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Riot's statement is not always true. What you're saying is not that my statement is not always true as well, but what you're trying to falsely say is that my statement is always false.

Do you have a source for the statement that riot expects you to win on purple and lose on blue? That is very, very hard to believe.

Mandaari1 votes

MMR is backed by the ELO system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

That the lower MMR team is blue is common knowledge, but it's also not necessary for the proof. It's just a simpler way to identify which team is lower MMR.

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

MMR is backed by the ELO system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

That the lower MMR team is blue is common knowledge, but it's also not necessary for the proof. It's just a simpler way to identify which team is lower MMR.

Only if the assumption that one team is lower average MMR than the other is true, for which you have only provided "Common Sense" as your source.

Your assumption makes no sense for a system based off Elo, as it is designed to match player that will have a 50% chance of winning or losing. It seems WAAAAY more statistically sound if both teams have an MMR withing 1 standard deviation of one another.

Why does Riot expect one side to win more than the other. What statistically significant advantage does Purple side have over Blue?

Mandaari1 votes

As I did not design their matchmaking I can't say why they did it. The part that matters is that MMR granted depends on the teams' MMRs. Those two are almost always going to be unequal. As long as they're unequal you can find scenarios where you can win over 50% and go down in MMR.

Kazaashi2 votes

{quoted}

As I did not design their matchmaking I can't say why they did it. The part that matters is that MMR granted depends on the teams' MMRs. Those two are almost always going to be unequal. As long as they're unequal you can find scenarios where you can win over 50% and go down in MMR.

You are framing the argument as if they have, and I am questioning that very framework. MMR is only based off Win/Loss Ratio and the sequence in which they are achieved. Nothing more.

The average MMR of both teams will never be 100% equal, that is true. However, your argument only works if there is a consistent and measurable difference, but have yet to prove it.

brad2 votes

{quoted}

Very fancy Greek letters? This is why people need to not be afraid of math. They're letters. Yes, I could have used any other letters, but those are standard to represent what I wanted them to.

I made a single assumption, which is known to be true.

Maybe you should look?

You're right. And if you looked I even stated this. But what you're saying doesn't remotely disprove what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Riot's statement is not always true. What you're saying is not that my statement is not always true as well, but what you're trying to falsely say is that my statement is always false.

once again if you have no sources for these statements that riot supposedly said then your entire argument goes down the drain i dont give a shit how much math you did

Graidon1 votes

Is there a tl;dr? Because........tl;dr

Mandaari1 votes

The title is the TL;DR.

Graidon1 votes

{quoted}

The title is the TL;DR.

Eh, not really. The title needs an argument. the argument needs the tl;dr

The Bearded Bard1 votes

That's why it'd be better with a flat rate system that goes up or down based on your steak of wins or losses.

1 win - 10 points 2 wins - 15 points 3 wins - 20 points 4 wins - 25 points 5 wins - 30 points

So five wins in a row gets you your 100 points for the promo games. If you win your promos, your win streak is reset and you start over.

Lose streaks work the same way.

1 loss - you lose 10 points. 2, you lose 15 3, you lose 20 4, you lose 25, 5, you lose 30.

If you lose a game while at 0 points, you get demoted. If you get demoted, your loss streak gets reset and you start over. Of course there's a safe period for being at 0 after being demoted/promoted, just like there is now.

So if you start at 0 points then win 3 and lose 1, you'll be at 35 points. If you lose the next game, you'll lose 15 and be at 20, but if you win it, you'd be at 45.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

However, this has the same drawback that the OP is complaining about. Let's say I lose 5 games in a row because I lost, got on tilt, and kept playing. I'm down 100 points. I then win one, resetting the system and gaining 10 points, resulting in a 1-5 score at -90 points. I then win another and lose one, gaining me another 5 points and putting my score at -85 with a 2-6 record. Continue this trend:

4-7, -70 6-8, -55 8-9, -40 10-10, -25

I can go even and still lose points despite steadily winning and climbing, simply because of that one bad day. And IMO, that's not good for the ranking system. Yes, I know it works the other way. But how many people do you know who go on longer winning streaks than losing ones?

The Bearded Bard1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Adrian Umbra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dmYTostE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-03-30T21:15:08.515+0000)

However, this has the same drawback that the OP is complaining about. Let's say I lose 5 games in a row because I lost, got on tilt, and kept playing. I'm down 100 points. I then win one, resetting the system and gaining 10 points, resulting in a 1-5 score at -90 points. I then win another and lose one, gaining me another 5 points and putting my score at -85 with a 2-6 record. Continue this trend:

4-7, -70 6-8, -55 8-9, -40 10-10, -25

I can go even and still lose points despite steadily winning and climbing, simply because of that one bad day. And IMO, that's not good for the ranking system. Yes, I know it works the other way. But how many people do you know who go on longer winning streaks than losing ones?

This system rewards those that consistently win games. If you can consistently win games, you belong higher than you are. If you tend to just win one then lose one over and over, you're probably at where you're supposed to be and until you improve, you shouldn't climb higher.

I do see your point, although I see it more as a working as intended point than a bad thing.

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