Doesn't Juggernaut look like a Fighter Enchantment instead of a Tank one?

TehNACHO··3 votes·849 views

Like, hear me out. There's a tl;dr below if you want to skip straight to the point but seriously, a bit of reading:

  1. Most tanks, while you can argue can benefit from Tenacity, don't technically need it in many cases. Some of the most important 'true' tank abilities or traits in the game are completely unaffected regardless if you're CC'ed, like how Braum's Unbreakable or Maokai's Ultimate or to a lesser effect Chogath's girth persist even when they are CC'ed. Trying to force Tenacity into the tank enchantment is even more confounded when you consider that many tanks aren't dedicated auto attackers, and most of their abilities are usually high impact, high cool down abilities (oftentimes abilities you'd chuck out as the battle starts, even before you get CC'ed in the first place). To rephrase, in many scenarios, CC doesn't even hamper them badly in many cases. Tenacity isn't nearly as useful on them. But you know who Tenacity is extremely useful on?
  2. Fighters (and melee carries, "Light Fighters" as I've been told Riot calls them), due to the fact that a large chunk of their effectiveness in a given fight scales off time, benefit greatly from Tenacity. Fighters and Melee Carries tend to be Auto Attackers and/or their abilities are medium impact, low cool down based. In other words, every second they are stunned or rooted too far away from their targets, that is another moment of near uselessness in a given fight. Being able to shave off even the smallest fraction of time to get back into the battle benefits these guys greatly, which is exactly what Tenacity does for the owner. You can argue ranged carries apply here as well, and that's technically right, but Tenacity is so much more noticeable on melee Fighters what with how they tend to be on the front lines, and catching the enemies' abilities and thus CC effects with their faces most of the time. Fighters also tend to have another trait to consider:
  3. Fighters, especially the tankier ones, have damage that scales really well off levels and/or their base stats, not on items. To put this into perspective, think of the fighters who only need to build one damage item before they're good to go damage wise. Some don't even need a damage item but can still hurt DrMundo. Why is this important? Other than obviously a bit of health to avoid dying, Juggernaut only grants a measly amount of CDR to help you clear through your jungle. Now remember what I said earlier, fighters who don't need damage items in the first place probably aren't affected by this at all; they can clear just fine with or without the enchantment, but many tanks have trouble trying to pull decent clear times through the jungle as everybody else's damage eventually out paces them or they burn all their mana trying to use their abilities to get through the jungle. If a Tank Jungler opts to rush Juggernaut, they're either going to be stranded in the Jungle as their subpar clear makes them incapable of farming at a rate to keep up with the rest of the game, or forced to help out lanes with only subpar defensive stats to back them up.

Personally, I think a new enchantment should be added to our list, one that greatly resembles the last iteration of Spirit of the Ancient Golem. Except for the most extreme cases of Tanky FightersDrMundo, Tanks benefit more from the defensive scaling then fighters due to the fact they just plainly build more defensive items to scale with. The barbs effect also helps them keep up with everyone else, and the mana regeneration can help our more starved tanks. Furthermore, this can help tread around the problem of tanks being way too tanky for buying Juggernaut right away (Think of Riot's reasoning against Jungle Alistar, his ult makes him a premier low-risk tower diver. Imagine if every tank jungler became like that the moment they bought their enchantment (hint: no, it's not good for the game)). Also, if we leave our current iteration of Juggernaut untouched, this still leaves the Tenacity enchantment that Fighters want and tanks may need to resort to if necessary. Tanks get their mana and a decent late game item, fighters get to choose boots other than Merc Treads.

tl;dr: Tenacity benefits fighters more than tanks, and the lack of clearing abilities associated with Juggernaut only hurts tanks. Let's solve this problem by introducing a new enchantment tailor made for true tanks, while still leaving Juggernaut and its tenacity in the game for fighters.

9 Comments

Talamare2 votes

If you used stuns on the tank, they already are protecting their allies

I agree Fighters prefer Tenacity over Tanks

Matthevv1 votes

Tanks want tenacity so that they can stay mobile in the fight. They need to protect their squishy allies and it is hard for them to do that when they can't move.

TehNACHO1 votes

Yes, this is true and I did address this. My point is that: Doesn't Tenacity benefit Fighters more?

Matthevv1 votes

Tenacity benefits everyone, that doesn't mean that tanks don't still need it.

TehNACHO1 votes

You're dodging my question. (^ ^')

Hell, you kinda just ignored my post outright...

Yes, it's true tanks can and sometimes do need tenacity to help maintain their presence. And I did address this in my post, where I stated that they can outright benefit from Tenacity, just as everyone else can. But now, can you answer my question as I present it to you: Doesn't Tenacity benefit fighters more?

Seriously, please don't shrug this off again and force me to repeat myself again, that would just be dull.

futuresight231 votes

You're dodging my question. (^ ^')

Hell, you kinda just ignored my post outright...

Yes, it's true tanks can and sometimes do need tenacity to help maintain their presence. And I did address this in my post, where I stated that they can outright benefit from Tenacity, just as everyone else can. But now, can you answer my question as I present it to you: Doesn't Tenacity benefit fighters more?

Seriously, please don't shrug this off again and force me to repeat myself again, that would just be dull.

I hate to ask you to do this but can you list examples (by examples I mean champions) of tanks and probably more importantly, what you would consider to be fighters? Fighters are a broad class of champions and I imagine some these days can be confused with tanks.

In any event, I don't think any of the jungle enchants are blatantly a must rush anymore besides Devourer which is a special case. Juggernaut especially is an enchant that when you decide to build it depends a lot on what you need at the time.

TehNACHO1 votes

Ahh, I see I was being quite unspecific about that.

Fighters and Tanks can both be recognized by the fact they tend to build heavy defense, and I think most anyone can easily agree to that. To me, what defines the difference between a fighter and a tank is how they use their defense:

Fighters build defense to defend themselves while they wail away on the enemy. Champions like Shyvana and DrMundo are the most obvious examples of Fighters of this type, since their role isn't to (for example) defend the AD Carry from attack, but instead establish a frontline with their damage presence and maybe even threaten the enemy team's carries.

Tanks build defense to defend others. I've mentioned a few examples above: Braum, Maokai, to a lesser extent Chogath, and so on. These are the champions who's role on the team is very clearly to defend others from either what their kits are capable of doing to defend others or more indirect methods like body blocking and CCing people.

Now of course, by those simple definitions, there are some fighters who can qualify as tanks and a few tanks that can qualify as fighters, but those guys tend to be the exception to the rules, or at least a smaller minority. Besides that, I hope if gives you a better idea of what I define ally defending tanks or enemy threatening fighters as.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Doesn't help that everybody has a different definition of those categories...

Mine would be: Tank - Frontliner with lots of health and resistances. A lot of CC, but not particularily dependant on auto-attacks, unrestricted movement or continuous/channeled casting. Builds 0-1 damage focused items. Examples: Amumu Braum Leona Alistar Maokai Bruiser - Frontliner with lots of health and resistances. Dependant on auto-attacks (JarvanIV Irelia Chogath Darius ) and/or unrestricted movement (DrMundo Singed Zac ) and/or continuous/channeled ability (Sion ) casting. Builds 0-1 damage focused items.

Fighters are mostly the same as bruisers, just with more damage items, and hence need to be more considerate about picking their fights.

And the nature of being dependant on some degree of freedom is, to me, the reason why bruisers and fighter benefit more from Tenacity than tanks - their effectiveness just scales so well with their uptime.

UrpwnnedSon1 votes

Thats because its an item for fighters.

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