Boards›Gameplay

I miss Defense

GigglesO··82 votes·17,053 views

I know this comes at a time where TT is getting alot of attention for its removal, but dear god do I miss something more than I'm going to miss TT.

Its defense.

I know this is going to sound alot like "hur dur dur I like farm meta" but legit, this getting blown up instantly is shit. It doesn't promote good teamplay, and assassins sorry to say are poorly designed when defense is low.

Take the new champ for example. Press q press w for a dash, press q again rinse repeat until you kill someone or just dash the fuck away with impunity. You can't even just bulk defense that shit and play for an extended trade because of the amount of tank kill/armorpen in the game. It pretty much goes like this: Get bulky cause fuck yea extended trades, some easier farming. -----> Wait wtf I just died in 2 seconds. ----> Looks at damage ----> yea thats the type of defense I have ----> buys more -----> dies in 2.1 seconds.

Thank god I got that extra .1 seconds on my death. I'm not really sure what I gained from it, but I sure am glad I built armor. /sarcasm

Seriously, defense needs some long term looking into. It just isn't even really satisfying to build anymore.

127 Comments

WoonStruck45 votes

I miss actual gameplay.

MalignMetal24 votes

Gameplay can happen when you live long enough to play the game

WoonStruck22 votes

That's what I mean. Taking it the other way would imply we have defense atm lol.

Nuclear arms race isn't fun.

MalignMetal36 votes

Amen

Daddy Ants19 votes

Tanks as a class are meant to be most effective against Mages and Assassin's in the sense they can peel for their backline and make the Assassin's / Mages have to hit them.

On the flip side, Tanks are meant to be vulnerable to consistent DPS Marksmen or Fighters.

 

My opinion on this is as follows

Mages and Assassin's should never be able to shred a tank.

Ragnaveil7 votes

Yet if we were to touch anything that would help tanks in that regard, Mages would rush in and hiss at us like we are trying to gut them.

TheShôrtestStraw2 votes

Dunno man I mained plenty of mages through the years and I dont like playing against assassins. So a damage nerf to both mages and assassins would be fine by me. Nobody likes getting one shot anyways.[poppy-wink]

Sewer Side3 votes

So then how do you explain Rammus or Malphite? Because consistent DPS does fuck all against them

Cojak7 votes

I think rammus is still niche, but overall a good example of what should be expected from a tank.

Malphite is a cheese case for armor plus IBG and high ap ratios.

GigglesO2 votes

Except rammus shouldn't have as large of a self slow. It completely fucks him into assassinate the enemy or just die.

Cojak1 votes

I often find unless i'm ahead that I will need someone to help kill in most situations early game. By late game the slow is almost not important because i can cancel w and reactivate it quickly enough, plus q for the chase if need be. What I like about rammus as a tank, especially against auto attackers, is the system actually works. Rammus vs yi is the best example, but also any crit carry (with the right itemization [tabi, randuins, thornmail]) beats them down with their own attacks and makes rammus super effective. Sadly not all tanks accomplish this against their respective targets.

ZacZac should be the anti tank tank, and sometimes is, but the items aren't there for him (i mean there's mask but that isn't super effective and its not tank item).

SejSejuani is the anti mobile tank, and can accomplish it regardless of items.

AmumuMalphite are damage tanks and that's an oxymoron imo. Pick one.

Chogath Galio Maokai Ornn TahmKench Volibear accomplish their goals regardless of builds. There are no suitable (tank) items for these champs that enhance the tank experience. Just beefs them up. Most of the enhance items are outside the norm, or not used at all.

GigglesO3 votes

{quoted}

What I like about rammus as a tank, especially against auto attackers, is the system actually works. Rammus vs yi is the best example

Unless Yi just has Conqueror + item 3124 + item 1419 ...

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

I think rammus is still niche, but overall a good example of what should be expected from a tank.

Malphite is a cheese case for armor plus IBG and high ap ratios.

Rammus is good because he shuts down ADC's Hard. Sej and Zac are good because they can engage and CC their target while also having decent damage but it's their ults that can make or break a teamfights.

GigglesO2 votes

More than just tanks can have impactful ultimate that make or break teamfights and do more damage while being significantly safe.

Neeko comes to mind when I type that. Maybe we should give neeko the galio treatment of not being able to flash while using abilities.

inb4 he can flash:

patch 9.14 W - Shield of Durand NEWGROUNDED Galio cannot Flash while channeling Shield of Durand

Yaskamasandwich10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dEHz8H14,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-08-01T19:15:39.943+0000)

So then how do you explain Rammus or Malphite? Because consistent DPS does fuck all against them

They were designed in a time where while there was a basic design for classes, it varied depending on champion to champion. Malphite and Rammus countered Marksmen with their special bonus to armor and burst level of damage. However they were countered by Mages, when most tanks counter mages. Even being forced to buy a single MR item hurts their kits and their job at bursting the Marksmen faster.

It is the same vein as well ... Vayne being a Marksmen that countered Assassins, while ironically have troubles killing tanks despite her % true damage. This was when she was balanced mind you, and was because her range put her into the danger zone where tanks could CC her. Before Riot made her the abomination she is today, she was a bad pick because of her short short range, and only single target damage with no AoE.

When a champion's counters is different, so too was the class that counters them. It is usually the class that is normally countered by them that is countering. For example Malphite as a tank getting countered by any mage, when it is usually vice versa for other tanks.

Each class had a different type of champion with different level of power spikes, different kits, different goals, and different counters. For example in the early days while most tanks were early game, Malphite, Rammus, Sejuani, Nautilus, and Maokai were late game tanks. Balance was dependent on the champion, while the basic design was there as a guide line. This was to prevent what is happening today, just pick the OP champion since all champions are essentially the same.

Ecophile3 votes

Because they prefer to make generalisations and refuse to adapt to the game. Tanks are played. Defense is stacked, even on carry champs sometimes.

Even If you answer that to the OP, he will probably dismiss it and only look at it from his point of view...

LordGeovanni5 votes

just like you are doing lol.

LordGeovanni3 votes

except that most mages and assassins have skills that go through their target. Nice theory though. (the thought that supposedly tanky no ranged champions are supposed to sit on top of allies they cant do anything to rather than on top of the enemy disrupting them is what i think is a large part of the problem. That should be a strategic call of the person playing the champion.)

Reaversal17 votes

Maybe some added up-front temporary defense on tank items, to mitigate burst specifically?

I mean, tanks are supposed to lose to DPS (and DPS loses to burst, and thus burst should lose to tankiness), so just adding more flat numbers probably isn't the answer.

Dead Man's Plate could probably have this functionality, perhaps by having it grant additional Armor while at max stacks (and maybe for a brief period afterward, like a miniature version of Sejuani's passive). That way AD assassins who get the drop on you can't burst you down so well.

I dunno, just spitballing.

The Kombinator5 votes

Instead tank lose to everything, dps with emergency protection wins against everything, and assassin beats tanks, and dps without emergency.

Slack King11 votes

Now that hey added in the new death report Im sick and tired of seeing 20-30% of damage taken being true damage

njrk977 votes

IDK whether its just me, but it feels like the only character that actually feel tanky, are literally the champs like Former Tahm and Mordekaiser who literally get 90% of their effective healthbar as a shield on a button press, and that feels kinda telling, the only way to feel really tanky, is literally to always have 2 health bars.

It also just feels like for every AD or AP items, you need to build 2 Armour or 2 magic resist items to feel like your tanking it in any way shape or form.

It does make sense though, Riot has been for the last 3 seasons trying to promote shorter flashier games so they can get more of those LCS views and those Net Cafe Asian Viewers. If you have tanks being proper tanks then that slows the game down, its the same reason Turrets still have the strength and damage of tinfoil, its why Runes Reforged amounted to Damage and more Damage, its why every new rework has such a huge abundance of nukes and damage, its why Tahm has been deleted (Once again Aniplay maker, makes games longer) and its why Tanks have been shifted away from Low Damage, high Peel and tanking, to just being a slightly tankier Fighter, because once again everything needs to nuke everything, we have to get those 10 minutes snowballs and get those games done in 20 minutes.

It seems to be why League is in such a messy state, the game from the ground up was never designed for shorter games, so every classes power curve has either been pushed to high to quickly, or is to low and too slow.

GigglesO5 votes

What you are saying, and the whole system also explains confilp feeling games where one person just gets ahead and the enemy feeds.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

IDK whether its just me, but it feels like the only character that actually feel tanky, are literally the champs like Former Tahm and Mordekaiser who literally get 90% of their effective healthbar as a shield on a button press, and that feels kinda telling, the only way to feel really tanky, is literally to always have 2 health bars.

It also just feels like for every AD or AP items, you need to build 2 Armour or 2 magic resist items to feel like your tanking it in any way shape or form.

It does make sense though, Riot has been for the last 3 seasons trying to promote shorter flashier games so they can get more of those LCS views and those Net Cafe Asian Viewers. If you have tanks being proper tanks then that slows the game down, its the same reason Turrets still have the strength and damage of tinfoil, its why Runes Reforged amounted to Damage and more Damage, its why every new rework has such a huge abundance of nukes and damage, its why Tahm has been deleted (Once again Aniplay maker, makes games longer) and its why Tanks have been shifted away from Low Damage, high Peel and tanking, to just being a slightly tankier Fighter, because once again everything needs to nuke everything, we have to get those 10 minutes snowballs and get those games done in 20 minutes.

It seems to be why League is in such a messy state, the game from the ground up was never designed for shorter games, so every classes power curve has either been pushed to high to quickly, or is to low and too slow.

Well said! Been saying this for years now. Glad I'm not the o ly one catching on.

JRobin312 votes

If this is by design to get me to watch more pro-games... then it backfired. I watch fewer pro-games. I posted a while back that my interest in the game diminished greatly when I saw a Kaisa solo an Orn under base Nexus towers in pro-play without having a significant lead in items or levels or summoners or cooldowns. If that is the state of the game, then it isn't that interesting to watch.

Daddy Ants6 votes

{quoted}

Seriously, defense needs some long term looking into. It just isn't even really satisfying to build anymore.

Feelsbad that you can't build item 3068 item 3025 and be immortal like Season 6/7.

/s

GigglesO17 votes

All items should be satisfying to build. They should all have something that they do, and you can feel or see them doing. This isn't about cinderhulk meta or anything else other than I'm tired of getting one shot. Its boring, its boring to watch.

Ragnaveil4 votes

idk why people downvoted you, guess they dont understand what /s means.

Slythrin Umbreon8 votes

We understand what Sarcasm is, we're annoyed as hell because everytime we ask for tanks to be DURABLE, people reference the tank meta: Where tanks did so much DAMAGE they no longer needed other classes to win, claiming that proves they can't be allowed to function at all, outside competitive, I guess.

Ragnaveil3 votes

Apparently its strong enough to warrant tanks to be a dead class when theres so much info out there that proves a tank meta is impossible.

Slythrin Umbreon7 votes

I don't need a fucking tank meta, I just want to actually be able to play the class and not feel like it's fucking masochistic and unrewarding as all hell. How would you feel if the majority of your bruisers/assassins/ and whatever else you play could sit on a ~45% winrate for the majority of the last 3-4 years, or even just straight up fall out of their lane because they couldn't even maintain that abysmal standard, and Riot literally doesn't give a fuck. Galio Nautilus

Shahamut6 votes

how would you feel if your main champion was some guy that RIOT gave no attention to whatsoever because he "has pro play presence"? Not only that, but they cant even agree on what the heck your champion even IS?

So because of that, your champion is now a terrible tank, doesn't scale, does ZERO damage unless you can sit on someone for over 12 seconds (/s), and is basically just an ult bot in LCS picked for the sole reason of making the enemy carries waste money on an item they werent originally going to build?

item 3070 Skarner item 3070

Ragnaveil6 votes

I mained tanks before they were gutted, I know your pain.

GigglesO2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slythrin Umbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dEHz8H14,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-01T23:19:44.914+0000)

I don't need a fucking tank meta, I just want to actually be able to play the class and not feel like it's fucking masochistic and unrewarding as all hell.

That is literally all I want as well. Right now it just feels bad building defense. Its like I could have just built pure damage and won this fight. However I built defense and just lost, but only because I didn't build damage.

LordGeovanni4 votes

I miss that and Cooldown window's 3 seconds isnt enough to walk up to ranged champion who used their burst / poke spell who can still hold their any 2 in a combination of CC sheild or mobility to get away

GigglesO7 votes

Yes, the cooldown creep that also happened around the same time as the damage creep.

Lets not forget champions used to actually run out of mana too.

GASPS (Runs out of mana)

LordGeovanni4 votes

and people pretend like its just item cooldowns like mages and marksmen didnt and still dont regularly get cooldown buffs too keep up with each other but anytime a bruiser gets a cooldown buff it gets quickly reverted because marksmen and mages (the people not laning with them but mages get buffs regardless of who is or isnt laning vs them) complain that late game they blow up because they didnt build any defense.

Fighters Tanks and Utility supports still run out of mana.

GigglesO3 votes

But then you get the cyclical didn't build defense because if I can't blow them up I still lose argument.

CrazyMonkeyCZ3 votes

[deleted]

GigglesO23 votes

Because being anything other than an assassin is a gameplay mistake?

Lets be real here, RenektonIrelia style champions may as well also be assassins with how much damage and mobility they have.

CrazyMonkeyCZ2 votes

No? Negating your mistakes by building tanky, ignoring outcome of laning phase, ignoring bad decisions, mistakes etc. That's what happens when defense is good. No thank you, I'll pass.

"Everything is assassin" is bullshit and you know it...

GigglesO13 votes

{quoted}

"Everything is assassin" is bullshit and you know it...

Never said everything is assassin, it is just none of those other champs really ever see the light of day because defense is so shit.

Ecophile3 votes

Then why all those champs get played in pro play???

Braum JarvanIV Nautilus Skarner Sejuani Poppy

LordGeovanni7 votes

Because beyond their SHIT defense they hold things in place while real damage characters instagib people. Dont use pro play to explain the game these are people at the top 0.?? % of the game and arent an accurate representation of the game these are people with great refelexes who want to play a reflex game because thats what they are good at and gives them money on god tier machines.

Ecophile1 votes

Wait, so what are you good at? Building defensive items? Having poor reflexes? not holding people in place?

I also see tanks in my games and in my friends' games. Your experience is also not necessarily an accurate representation of the game. Counterplay is a really good mechanic into the game. If your ennemy is can't kill you ever, while having less utility and defense himself, what the fuck is he supposed to do? Defenses make you more durable, especially early game. If you let carries get fed, they will melt you if you just stand in their face without any threat on them. Do you understand that or you want to keep saying that YOUR experience is different and that is the one which the balance team should work around?

LordGeovanni6 votes

no one has ever been unkillable in this game except people who do damage so fast and consistently that they shred/burst through all opposition. So only Champions like riven yasou most mages and adcs.

You good sir are not looking to have a reasonable convesation but to try twist people words into 'thats why you are bad at the game'. good bye

preternatural2 votes

this is just a buff hp thread. derp

GigglesO1 votes

Armor and MR need to have value too.

preternatural2 votes

{quoted}

Armor and MR need to have value too.

yeah their value scales on hp. buff hp.

GigglesO6 votes

Vayne Fiora

yea no... buff armor and mr.

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