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Some math behind Patch 4.21

TehNACHO··2 votes·2,368 views

tl;dr at the bottom

Cassiopeia

Passive - Aspect of the Serpent on every poisoned unit kill once every 6 seconds (10 times per minute)

Let's assume for a moment that "Unit kill" only stands for minions for a second here. This means we can calculate this for time: -Minions at mid lane meet each other approximately at the 2:00 mark. By then, that will be 20 stacks on the new passive. This will also mean 12 new stacks per minute with the old method, vs 10 per minute with the new method. Currently: 12x(minutes)=20+10x(minutes) minutes=10 This means, assuming you have 0 interaction with the enemy champion, if you can somehow get a perfect CS score with nothing but poisoned minions, you will actually generate less stacks past the 10 minute mark. On a 4 second cool down with a 3 second poison time on Noxious Blast, I can see this being a kinda impractical analysis, but feasible. If you are an extremely proficient farmer, especially if it were to come to managing your poison, time is not your friend.

Buuuuuut that's bullshit. You're not Nasus, this isn't farming simulator 2014. Let's look at champion interaction: on Twin Fang cast on enemy champion for every second that an enemy champion is poisoned.

Calculating for mana, mostly because mana seems to be the only thing close to resembling a shared trait between these two situations, you get 1 stack per 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 mana, depending on the rank of Twin Fang, based on the old system, whereas you get 3 stacks for 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 mana, based on Noxious Blast.

Simply put, per point of mana (which is incredibly important to keep track of, I might add, during the laning phase), Cassiopeia is far more efficient at stacking than ever before.

I can't say for sure that "Cassiopeia gains special bonuses at 75/200/400 stacks ⇒ 100/250/500 stacks. The new breakpoints will be hit sooner than the old ones based on the new stacking mechanics (above)." really does hit sooner, mostly because the second calculation is hard to calculate practically based on time, but I will say this.

##These changes on Cassiopeia's passive doesn't promote farming nearly as much as before, avoiding from making Cassiopeia a finite scaling Nasus or Veigar. Instead, the new system implemented is extremely more efficient if your focus is on bullying the opponent. To the lane bully Cassiopeia fans at there, rejoice, this new system is one that caters to you.

E - Twin Fang

! This section cannot be calculated at this time. I would prefer to calculate based on maximum possible DPS, but first I need to know exactly what happens if Noxious Blast or Miasma overlap either each other or themselves.!

Corki

Q - Phosphorous Bomb

MISSILE SPEED 1125 ⇒ 1000

For those who can't really comprehend "missile speed" as something tangible in-game, this nerf will cause an approximately a 0.1 second delay when firing this ability at max range. Doesn't sound big, I realize, but I really recommend you Corki players to get used to it. Don't panic, 0.1 seconds is only so long, so you don't exactly have much to actually argue about (at least objectively). Just expect your max ranged Qs to be just that much less reliable; 0.1 seconds longer for the opponent to react.

1125x(time)=825 x=11/15

1000x(new time)=825 y=33/40

y-x=11/120=0.091666~

Jax

R - Grandmaster's Might

BONUS ARMOR 25/35/45 (+0.3 attack damage) ⇒ 20/35/50 (+0.5 attack damage)

It meant bonus AD right?

For his Rank 1 ultimate, you need at least 25 bonus AD for this to be a straight buff. Honestly, that's an easy task to meet, so long as you don't build full tanky/never go back by that point, so I really hope nobody complains that this is in any way a nerf. To rephrase, Jax really received some love here.

25+0.3x(AD)=20+0.5x(AD) AD=25

Jayce

W - Hyper Charge

While I realize this is more of a fix to avoid cheesing like hell as Jayce, this is actually a nerf to Jayce's spell-slinging DPS, which only gets progressively worse as you build CDR.

...Don't most Jayce builds tend to stack at least 25% CDR? Huh...

14x(CDR)=13x(CDR)+1.2 12x(CDR)=11x(CDR)+1.2 10x(CDR)=9x(CDR)+1.2 8x(CDR)=7x(CDR)+1.2 6x(CDR)=5x(CDR)+1.2 (x always equals 5/4. In other words, at normal cool down, it already takes longer to go from one Hyper Charge to the next, and it gets worse compared to more as you buy more CDR)

Sejuani

Q - Arctic Assault

REMOVED: ENEMY HEALTH SCALING - Arctic Assault no longer scales with 4/6/8/10/12% of target's max health DAMAGE 40/70/100/130/160 magic damage ⇒ 80/125/170/215/260 magic damage

Huh...this is actually a pretty big nerf to Sejuani's late game.

At rank 1, this ability used to do more damage if the opponent has more than 1000 HP. Rank 2, 917 HP. Rank 3, 875 HP. Rank 4, 850. Rank 5? 833.

To rephrase, the higher this ability's rank goes, the less health it takes for Sejuani's old percentage health damage to actually do more damage than with the new base values. This becomes stupid when you realize that as levels go up, so does health, ultimately meaning this ability's damage and the enemy's health are going to shoot right past each other come midgame. While I suppose this is an okay change for Sejuani's early game, all this does is make Sejuani's Q fall off harder come late game.

...Actually, don't (big) Jungle monsters have over 1000 hp? Shit, this hurts Jungle Sejuani's early game too!

40+0.04x(Health)=80, (Health)=1000 70+0.06x(Health)=125, (Health)=2750/3=916.66666666 100+0.08x(Health)=170, (Health)=875 130+0.1x(Health)=215, (Health)=850 160+0.12x(Health)=260, (Health)=(2500/3), 833.3333333

W - Flail of the Northern Winds

INITIAL HIT DAMAGE 40/60/80/100/120 (0.3 ability power) magic damage ⇒ 4/6/8/10/12% of target's max health (+3% per 100 ability power) in magic damage

1000 HP, again?

Luckily, this is the exact opposite of before. The moment the enemy has more than 1000 HP, the base damage from Sejuani's new W base scaling beats the old.

It also appears the AP scaling for this ability's burst has gone way up.

40=0.04x(Health), (Health)=1000

~~AREA OF EFFECT DAMAGE 80/120/160/200/240 (+10% bonus health) ⇒ 40/70/100/130/160 (+4/6/8/10/12% total health)

On the other hand however, this is a rather significant nerf. At max rank, the opponent needs over 4000 health in order for the new base damage to catch up with the old one.

80+0.1x(Health)=40+0.04x(Health) 120+0.1x(Health)=70+0.06x(Health) 160+0.1x(Health)=100+0.08x(Health) 200+0.1x(Health)=130+0.1x(Health) 240+0.1x(Health)=160+0.12x(Health)~~

I misread something, please wait for me to rewrite this.

#Nerf, buff, nerf, honestly I'm not sure if I really like these changes. For the most part, Sejuani players are getting straight up lied to about the whole "a lot of Sejuani's damage has been shifted out of her up-front burst (Q) and instead shoved into the damage-over-time of her Flail", at least past the mid game in regards to her Q. Not to mention the rather questionable change to her Permafrost. I guess the mana is nice, but holy shit I do not expect any Sejuani players to like her new Q at all, especially Jungle Sejuanis. I guess AP Sejuanis are may enjoy the initial damage of the flail, but I do find this really sad that these changes manage to flat out hurt Tanky Jungle Sejuani.

A somewhat simplified tl;dr: -New Cassiopeia passive promotes being a lane bully, instead of being a watered down Veigar/Nasus. -Corki has a 0.1 second delay on his Q. -Jax needs 25 AD by level 6, and the armor portion of his ultimate will be a straight buff. -Jayce received a rather noticeable nerf to his Hyper Charge if you want to go spell slinging. -Did Sejuani seriously just get nerfed?!

26 Comments

MattAkhavan1 votes

I'll comment on the sejuani changes

There are a few things that are pretty important for sejuani with these changes. First moving the % health damage from arctic assault to Flail is actually a buff. I say this because before, specifically in the jungle, you had to use arctic assault to farm effectively. This takes so much mana especially for a champion that already has a ton of mana problems. So now that you don't have to arctic assault camps you save mana and basically do the same damage because the % damage is just moved to flail. On top of that if you miss your arctic assault, because it's a skill shot, you lose out on a large % of damage. As the last point for arctic assault, it gets more base damage to make up for the base damage lost in permafrost

The flail is a huge huge huge buff, but not early. in early game is does a LITTLE less damage than how it is on live. However the difference is basically unnoticeable in the early game, however it's frickin amazing in the mid and late game. This spell became sejauni's bread and butter and now rivals permafrost in which to max first. It buffs ap sej and tank sej because it now scales with total health and scales twice with AP ( LICH BANE SEJ IS OP)

Permfrost is a give and take change. It gives you insane cool down for the spell and that's super important because it does a large bulk of sejuani's damage. The trade off for this is lower base damage and lower slow duration. The slow duration is easily overshadowed with the cooldown and is well worth the trade, but i think the base damage of permafrost was hit too hard you see a VERY noticeable difference in her early game damage. However, once you get flat AP this "nerf" goes away.

Tell me what you think! nice write up

Champion Skin1 votes

Well to me the AoE damage of Flail I am not so sure about as you now get -6%/-4%/-2%/0%/+2% bonus health scaling compared to before (the % of base health will always be the same and can be thought of as part of the base damage just dependent on your level)

It seems like a nerf early game, a nerf mid game if you buy lots of hp if not it is probably about the same, and a buff late game or pretty much at any point you have rank 5 of the ability

LankPants2 votes

unless you have absurd amounts of hp the ability levels out at rank 3-4 and surpasses the old damage significantly at rank 5, also it's definitely a buff starting lv 9 no matter how you look at it since W max is going to be the only viable max now.

MattAkhavan1 votes

Permafrost is still very viable. When the changes go life and you llau sej you will barely see a difference in her clear speed but you will see a differnce in her mana efficiency in the jungle.

LankPants1 votes

If you max E you'll just straight up OOM and clear slower than if you max W, your ganks will be worse except at levels 11 and 12 because you deal less damage and have the same overall CC, however levels 11 and 12 aren't overly important ganking levels as by then people tend to start grouping and taking objectives and the extra damage would help more.

Also as for the changes going live I have a PBE account, I've tried them, I know for a fact that Sej's clear is now straight up worse until level 5 where is start so even out, at level 7 it surpasses her old clear, this might be too late though and I wouldn't be surprised if W got base damage buffs in 4.22/5.01

MattAkhavan1 votes

you can 1 combo jungle camps with a few levels in E. play it and see, i have played sej a ton on pbe when the changes went live and i have played it on live. I don't have that many mana problems. You deal more than enough damage with permafrost to make ganks worth it. It makes ganking top easier because you should be able to get 2 permfrosts off if they are pushed.

just play the champ the changes he been live for 1 day. adapt!

LankPants1 votes

I've been playing sej since season two, I know how to adapt, continuing to max E is not adapting that's just clinging to what you've always done.

MattAkhavan1 votes

i said in my post that W can be maxed first too. i didn't say that you should never mas flail, but i said peremafrost is still a very viable option because it is.

Talamare1 votes

The problem with W is due to the short range it is actually kinda of tricky to actually hit with it sometimes

Especially during teamfights where CC is flying everywhere to keep you off the ADC

LankPants1 votes

AREA OF EFFECT DAMAGE 80/120/160/200/240 (+10% bonus health) ⇒ 40/70/100/130/160 (+4/6/8/10/12% total health)

On the other hand however, this is a rather significant nerf. At max rank, the opponent needs over 4000 health in order for the new base damage to catch up with the old one.

You understand this is sej's hp not the enemies and does more damage starting around rank 3?

TehNACHO1 votes

WOOPS.

Thanks for the catch. I'll rewrite that section when I have the time.

LankPants1 votes

I'll do the maths for you quickly

At lv 1 with no runes or masteries it deals 40+0.04(600)=64 compared to 80+0.10(0)=80 With flat HP yellows and HP masteries it deals 40+0.04(729)=69.16 to 80+0.10(129)=93

very significant early drop in damage, becomes more significant for every extra point of HP

At level 9 rank 5 no bonus 160+0.12(1240)=309 260+0.10(0)=260

somewhat significant midgame increase, becomes more significant for every extra point of HP

At level 18 with 2000 bonus HP (fair amount for Sej) 160+0.12(4215)=666 260+0.10(2000)=460

very significant lategame increase in damage, becomes more significant for every extra point of HP

Saianna1 votes

Wasn't cassiopeias stack bonuses at 75/150/350?

Also you are missing main point why some (alot actually) dedicated cassiopeia players are angry @ her rework & Stashu. Because she used to be all about Dot damage. Now she doesn't deal any poison damage. All damage focus goes to her E.

Also you cannot bully with cassiopeia for pretty simple reason. You have to poison enemy to use fast-resetting E. And then you have to come into dangerous range to do it.. Otherwords playing rambo with wooden stick vs tank.

TehNACHO1 votes

It was more of a general statement than just towards the Cass players who complain~

Saianna1 votes

I'm sorry but it's just wrong.. It's like saying Garen should buy magic penetration just to reduce enemys MR for his ult damage. It also is general statement directed to garen players who complain his R is totally countered by 100mr.

I know you have tried to show us, that she isn't that bad. But it just feels wrong..

TehNACHO1 votes

In what way is it wrong? All I've stated is that if you bully with Cassiopeia, you are rewarded for bullying, compared to before when you were rewarded for farming.

This isn't anything like the Garen comparison as there's no change in your example. If, for example, Garen's ultimate was changed to have higher execution scaling and a lower base damage compared to now, it will reward people who actually use it as an execute. That would be more in line to what I'm stating with Cassiopeia. All I'm stating is that there' a clear change. I'm not trying to say she's not bad, I'm just saying that it has changed.

Honestly dude, I think you let the people who complain about Cassiopeia get to you.

Saianna1 votes
  • High mana costs = mana hungry
  • Lack of cc = go bully -> oh stun in face
  • lack of escape = go bully = get ganked
  • no stacks early = no power And bullying?

Now, did i showed you my point of view properly? She cannot bully because it'll only make her even more vulnerable. She's glass cannon without any power early.

TehNACHO1 votes

High mana costs?

You did read the part that the new system is much more efficient mana per mana, right?

I think it's also safe to assume that if you plan to harass or bully, you shouldn't do something retarded (like walk right in front of an Ahri with her charm up).

Actually, old Cass also didn't have hard CC or an escape, yet many proponents for the old Cass constantly cite her early game bully potential.

Hmm.

Saianna1 votes

True her mana costs were reduced. But compared to pre rework they are still enormous. Prereworked cass had perfect tool for harassment and cutting enemy from csing. That is her Miasma (W). 1 miasma was enough to kill ranged minions. Right now it doesn't deal even half of their hp. Also there's 1 more thing. With old cass her scallings were better. You didn't had to wait 15-25-50 minutes for damage to appear. You had decent damage from the start. That allowed you to bully. With stack passive she first has to get power from stacks. And as we know it takes time.

True that old cass didn't had CC nor escape, but her damage rielied on Dot and chasing her was in best case scenario very hurtful. Chasing her was similar to chasing teemo trough his minefield or singed.

Now when all her power shifted to E, she has only to options: 1.) run and throw non-damaging poison, which doesn't help her much. 2.) throw non-damaging poison & spam E in hope of miracle.

She cannot move and spam E. Gotta choose something.

TehNACHO1 votes

I really think at this point it's all just a misunderstanding. It's either come to the point where I say one thing and you say something in response completely unrelated, or we actually agree on a point but you still sound like you're disagreeing with me.

I've said as much as I want at this point. The new system is much more mana efficient for bullying, even if one can argue she isn't as good at actually bullying in terms of raw power. I'll leave it at that.

I think we agree, surprisingly or not, it's just something rework-rage-related that's blocking us from seeing eye to eye.

Saianna1 votes

I'm blockhead. And tired.. And angry at Stashu... So everyone who tries to prove that she's ok/slightly better than before just enrages me. So yeah we might agree on some parts, but we had problems with comunication/understanding each other.. Sleep time :)

TehNACHO1 votes

Also, just a correction to point out.

You only need to poison with the new system. You don't need to use her Twin Fang.

Saianna1 votes

Please, check her damage from poison. I've tried Cassiopeia in Co-op just 1hr ago. At lvl 1 her miasma (W) dealt 9 dmg per tick. At lvl 1 her Noxious Blast (Q) deals ~60-70 total dmg (or even less). That is if: 1.) if you get close (range is small) 2.) enemy is dumb enough to stand in 1 spot 3.) he doesn't retaliate (then she'll get counterbullied. Pointless)

TehNACHO1 votes
  1. Q's range is 850...

It exceeds melee gap closing range (Talon, any individual shadow for Zed), exceeds most ranged Auto Attacks, hell it even exceeds Syndra's Q.

Only long range spells designed very specifically to be long range spells exceed that of Noxious Blast. Really...

  1. People have to farm. People have ability animations. People burn cool downs. Do you really not know how lane bullying actually works?

  2. I think point 1 and her range exceeding many others defeats this point already.

Saianna1 votes

Uh, i wrote it wrong. Her Q range is big. But facing extremaly long poking champions (lux,xer,ziggs) she's in huge disadvantage. As she has to move into their direction which gives them time to prepare. That's what i tried to say.

Even mid-range poking champions (like Ahri) can retaliate. Sorry. I'm too tired to write ir properly.. So bear with my lame explanation: Cassiopeia moves to hit Ahri with Q, Ahri seeing it can move slightly forward taking Q while countering with her Q. Cass takes more damage = bullying failed.

Same thing applies to talon/zed. Take low damage Q from Cass while positioning to deal even more damage.

Anyways, as i said i'm tired. Especially talking in 2 sections of same topic. So lets end it with this sentence: Lets agree to disagree, because neither I nor You will step back on our point of view :)

TehNACHO1 votes

Ahh.

Yeah, that was what I meant about misunderstanding with my other post. I think we actually agree, there's just a summoner 21 that's keeping us from seeing eye to eye.

And now I think it's because of your apparent tiredness, lol.

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