Repertoire's initial take on Machine Gun Kog was fine

Rebonack · 2017-01-23T04:36:21.099Z

As in, when his W had zero base damage and scaled with his total AD. This forced Kog to build some AD if he wanted to be useful while keeping his early game in check. Kog was okay post hotfix buff, but not overwhelming by any means. Then the Live Balance Team ruined him. First they removed the AD scaling on his W and gave it base damage. That still wasn't too bad, really. Then they moved Kog's attack speed from Q to W. That totally broke him. Kog players were screaming for Riot to just undo the Q nerf/W buff, but Riot in their typical heedless fashion blundered forward and made things worse. They replaced it with base OnHit damage, and he was still broken. Because he could still spam nothing but OnHit stuff without losing any power. The first take on Machine Gun Kog, where he had no base W damage at all was the best version of him. He could still go OnHit if he really wanted to. Or he could stack AD for a powerful W and nuclear missile Ults. But then the Live balance team broke him and caused the remake to be reverted. Good going, guys.

Pierce The VealJan 23, 20174 votes

{quoted}

As far as I recall, one of the main reasons Machine Gun Kog was reverted was the amount of abuse it allowed for scripters. A normal person couldn't possibly orb walk with Kog, but a scripter could, giving a hugely unfair advantage to cheaters. There were other reasons for the revert, but I remember this reason was cited directly.

To be fair, it was perfectly possible for an experienced kog player to orb walk. Maybe not as flawlessly as a scripter, but they could do it nonetheless.

KorZodJan 23, 20175 votes

the only person who could really do it perfectly was deft and scripters. It's just bad if literally the only way to play the champ was to 1) be the best ADC in the world or 2) cheat. As fo the ZX macro, it was nice for mediocre players, but high level players saw little to no improvement with the macro. The major problems were his 1 item spike (super fast fervor stacks + wits end hits was dumb) and that it was a scripters dream. With fervor nerfed hard, MG kog would really not be a problem now. He was barely a problem then either

RebonackJan 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

the only person who could really do it perfectly was deft and scripters. It's just bad if literally the only way to play the champ was to 1) be the best ADC in the world or 2) cheat. As fo the ZX macro, it was nice for mediocre players, but high level players saw little to no improvement with the macro. The major problems were his 1 item spike (super fast fervor stacks + wits end hits was dumb) and that it was a scripters dream. With fervor nerfed hard, MG kog would really not be a problem now. He was barely a problem then either

Riot could have just made Koggers unable to cancel his auto-attack animations ala Kalista while using his W. That would have shot down the scripting issue pretty easily. And if Riot just reverted Kog back to his post hotfix buff state (no base damage on W) then going Wit's first before any attack damage would leave his W hitting like a wet noodle. That would probably result in Kog going Rageblade first for the attack speed and AD (and ability to stack it quickly) but that slows down his first item spike considerably and back-ends his damage. Being weak to disengage is a thing Kog should have to deal with.

The Taco KatJan 23, 20174 votes

Riot's actual want to revert him was due to the lack of interaction of the player to the champion. They didn't like Kog'Maws hitting W and standing still, nor did they like how he cut his DPS drastically by attempting to auto cancel (unless it is a scripter doing it, in which Riot would have to ban the player).

RebonackJan 23, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Taco Kat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d9Ajd2E1,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-23T17:54:44.117+0000)

Riot's actual want to revert him was due to the lack of interaction of the player to the champion. They didn't like Kog'Maws hitting W and standing still, nor did they like how he cut his DPS drastically by attempting to auto cancel (unless it is a scripter doing it, in which Riot would have to ban the player).

But being unable to kite effectively while using W (and thus being weak to disengage) was one of Kog's intended weaknesses. But then I guess Riot decided they didn't like it?

In the revert post, they also bewailed the fact that the remake gave Kog too much early/mid game power-

-which was a direct result of them nerfing his Q and buffing the hell out of his W. Repertoire's version of machine gun Kog didn't have that problem. It was the changes the Live team made that pushed him in that direction. I was honestly flabbergasted by the statement.

"Hey guys, let's shove all of Kog's power into his early/mid game by overloading his W!"

"Oh shit! How did Kog get so strong early/mid game?"

The Taco KatJan 25, 20171 votes

I do agree he didn't have too many problems before the Q attack speed onto the W (it was still pretty unfair come late game at 6 items, a little too much of a spike there, though it could've been tuned down to acceptable points), but he was reverted because while playing Kog'maw, some people in bronze got equal success as a diamond player (a random one, not a OTP because some could orb walk) when pressing W and right clicking the same target. Targeting the right champions and being able to reposition from a few different spots made for equal success between too many ELOs for basic ADC mechanics being put in place.

Personally, I prefer the reverted Kog'maw, but that is because I enjoy AP more than I do AD. I tried to say this with as little bias as possible.

RebonackJan 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Taco Kat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d9Ajd2E1,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-25T20:34:34.063+0000)

I do agree he didn't have too many problems before the Q attack speed onto the W (it was still pretty unfair come late game at 6 items, a little too much of a spike there, though it could've been tuned down to acceptable points), but he was reverted because while playing Kog'maw, some people in bronze got equal success as a diamond player (a random one, not a OTP because some could orb walk) when pressing W and right clicking the same target. Targeting the right champions and being able to reposition from a few different spots made for equal success between too many ELOs for basic ADC mechanics being put in place.

Personally, I prefer the reverted Kog'maw, but that is because I enjoy AP more than I do AD. I tried to say this with as little bias as possible.

Kog has never been a mechanically intensive champion. Kog is much more of a strategic champion than he is a tactical one. You win with Kog by knowing where and when to start fighting and when to cut your losses and waddle away. It's about knowing his matchups and being able to mind-game people into getting nailed with his Ult. Probably the most mechanically intensive thing about Kog is kiting people into his ults while slowly scooting away from them.

I don't have any real preference between machine gun Kog and massive damage W Kog. They both do effectively the same thing. I'm just pointing out that the fundamental idea of machine gun Kog wasn't broken. The problem was how the live balance team decided to buff him that made him broken.

vOmvbrawfUJan 23, 201713 votes

So then, uh, ban the scripters?

RebonackJan 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

As far as I recall, one of the main reasons Machine Gun Kog was reverted was the amount of abuse it allowed for scripters. A normal person couldn't possibly orb walk with Kog, but a scripter could, giving a hugely unfair advantage to cheaters. There were other reasons for the revert, but I remember this reason was cited directly.

Nah, they reverted it because:

It wasn't powerful/fun to watch in LCS
It was strong in solo
It made OnHit items harder to balance for everyone else

I don't give a shit about number one, nor should anyone else. Numbers two and three were both caused by giving Kog's W base damage. Or in other words, were totally the fault of the live balance team. Hence this topic.

TotalJerkJan 23, 20171 votes

Machine Gun Kog was reverted was the amount of abuse it allowed for scripters.

Someone discovered a technique that allowed you to almost emulate scripter level speed by binding attack move and move to two keys and alternating between them with a certain rhythm. Also that didn't make the revert the Cassiopeia rework, they just made her E not interrupt movement commands so that players didn't even need to script to use it at maximum efficiency.

Repertoire's initial take on Machine Gun Kog was fine

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