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8.11 Armorpen vs Magicpen

Häxel·5/16/2018, 3:36:59 PM·2 votes·976 views

Hello Ladies and Gentleman, i recently read i think here in the boards how unfair the changes to Lw are so Assassins can shred all the armor of a squishy at lv 18. I thought to myself why this is something special as mages can do true damage already since years with only little changes. And while this thread is maybe a bit late as a respond it also is a bit early as probably when 8.11 hits live more threads could come up again. Regardlesss i want to analyze the exact diffrences and where ad and where ap have some advantages and disadvantages regarding itempaths, amount of pen, cost and lvl diffrences like lv18 vs for exampel lv 8.

0. Diffrence Grivous Wounds 1.Early Purchase and dur: item 3916 0s 1.5k/item 3165 3s 3k vs item 3123 3s 0.8k/item 3033 5s 2.8k. 2. With Max Pen: item 3165 indepent item, item 3135 40% still purchasable vs item 3033 just 25%, item 3036 35% not purchasable. So early purchase ad has the advantage but regarding max pen ap is in favor. But now lets start with the real pen comparison

1. List of Penetration and Tank Shredding Items Ap vs Ad

  1. Flatpen: item 3020 18mpen + item 3165 15mpen = 33mpen for 4.1k vs item 3147 + item 3142 + item 3814 =3*18leth= 54leth for 8.9k
  2. %Pen: item 3135 35%mpen 2.65k vs item 3035 10%apen 1.3k or item 3033 25%apen 2.8k or item 3036 35%apen 2.8k
  3. Reduc: item 3091 30flat mrreduc 2.4k vs item 3071 24% areduc 3k.
  4. %healthdmg&%dmginc: item 3151 10%inc 3%/6%mhealth 3.1k & item 3001 15%minc 3k vs item 3153 8%chealth 3.2k.

item 3091 & item 3153 as items and no amge/no real assassin items, just good for Splitpush. item 3001 & item 3814 get not much bought, Abys could be by a tank and makes max dmg dependent to them, other a situational item, both got nerfed when they were to strong. item 3151 & item 3071 also situational but more common as above.

So Standard max dmg ranked from common to uncommon would be:

  1. item 3020 + item 3165 +item 3135 + for 7.75k vs item 3147 + item 3142 + item 3036 for 8.6k
  2. +item 3151 3.1k vs + item 3071 3k
  3. +item 3001 3k vs + item 3814 3.1k
  4. +item 3091 2.4k = 16.25k vs + item 3153 3.2k = 17.9k (6 Items, ad no boots)

2. Early Power

  1. Flatpen: item 3020 1.1k + item 3916 1.5k =33mpen for 2.6k vs item 3134 10leth =10leth for 1.1k. Effectivly 1 Item Spike you can get lethalaty earlier compared to orb or same price compared to sorc but 2 Items mpen is cheaper as you can't compare to 2Dirks as the leth is unique, so for 28leth you need at least 4k, 4.2k with night rush.
  2. Possible Cost Reduc: item 2422 -0.3k 1 vs item 3252 -0.6k3 = -1.8k Poachers is something nearly no one takes, in particular buying 3 but it gives the possibility to get every leth item cheaper. Magical Footwork as a Rune a bit more common but with the nerfs to Inspiration, to this rune and placing it in one tier with perfect timing and hextech flash it also got less common.
  3. total list of early power items: item 3020 + item 3916 +item 3136 = 4.1k vs item 3134 + item 3035 + item 3123 = 3.2k Note: EC no pen item so you would normaly only look at sd+lw=2.4k. But midgamewise you can finish one item and still get a cheap fast after it. item 3010 1,1k vs item 3044 1.25k. Both are no early pen items but give early power with their passive. Their finished items give 10%vs20% Cdr. item 1043 on both as items as early onhit power. item 3135 has not one early power item. Sorcerys in general good as you got now boots that ad still needs to fill with other stat boots. Ad also has item 3133 cdr on 2 leth items.

3. Power over Stage of the Game with Purchases Note: I gonna compare as exampel an exampel build Katarina vs Zed . Ap Assassins give the advantage i can ignore the purchase of manaitems. In general it should be clear that assassins are better early game cause of that and mages better late game with full build and waveclear and range. Also gonna ignore sudden impact. Zed in comparison to liek talon has normal melee mr values. kata has already gw on ult so no can ignore the extra strenght morelo adds and just say zed goes ld. The whole thing is a possibility in which order they could pruchase their items but i don't say or say whether this order si the best order. For exampel i know that Kata normaly likes torush Gunblade but i abbort at some point the dmg calculations on eachs tep and even the details, this is just approximate comparison.

  1. item 1001 vs item 1036 start. More ms vs more dmg.
  2. lv 6: 37mr - item 3020 18pen = 29mr vs 41.7 ar - item 3134 10leth (7.3pen) = 34.4armor. kat shreds more as double.
  3. lv 8: item 3916 for 1.5k, 39.3mr-33pen=6.3mr vs Upgrade to item 3147 for 1.8k, 48.1ar-18leth(14pen)=34.1ar. Kat still shreds more as double and zed needs 300 gold more, but then gets a finished item which in duskblade case is extra dmg.
  4. item 3136 for 1.5k vs item 3134 for 1.1k. Now kata has 100 more gold cost with what she had saved before.
  5. item 3135 for 2.65k vs item 3035 + item 3044 for 2.55k. Zeds gold advantage increases to 200. While zed maybe came closer when he finished lw and gets closer to lv18 while kata was still occupied to build void, with finishing void kata should have gained again a huge advantage. Kata is basicly now at max shred while zed still has to reach lv18 for full amount of flatpen and upgrade to ghostblade, ld and bc
  6. item 3151 upgrade for 1.6k vs item 3036 upgrade for 1.5k. Kata now gained max healthdmg, zed got closer to finish his pen and has now a 300 Gold advantage.
  7. item 3165 for 1.5k vs item 3142 upgrade for 1.8k. Kata just optimized for more ap and health while zed finished his pen. Gold equal now. What remains is that Zed has still to finish his item 3071 for 1.75k and if you have notice it: he has no boots for additional 0.9-1.1k. Kata with gunblade now would have to spend like 0.8k gold more as she has left compared to zed. So even a mage with a manaitem would be realy close goldwise to an assassin. some shifts when an ad assassin and when a mage is ahead with the ad assassin having lethalaty earlier but as soon as the mage gets pen the mage has the advantage (as again lethalaty is dependent on lv).

4. Lv 18 Power 4-items with pen/reduction/increases/healthdmg item 3020 item 3165 item 3135 item 3151 : 33flatmpen, 40%mpen, 10%totaldamageinc, 3%/6% maxhealthdamage, boots->cheap item 3147 item 3142 item 3036 item 3071 : 36flatapen, 35%apen, 24%armordec, 40%Cdr, no boots->expensive

Now i could calculate how much armor is left based on each champion (hard) or on one exampel(possible)with the %armorpen/reduc. But magic resistance to calculate would be kidna pointless cause %dmg incr of liandrys(and abyssal) needs as other things like amumu passive the total dmg based on ap and used abilitys with their scaling. So only what is on mr left isn't enough and all that would take even for one champion a bit long.

So here it is. I did comment not that much. I also calculated just a little, the little that could be necesary. Moslty i compared the pen and co as well as the costs.

What should be clear: Mages/ap asssasins have a lead since the marksman rework regarding pen. lw gets now reverted to toal ad and that makes espeicaly mortal reminder better as you can buy that item vs vlad and aatrox and akali even if they have no bonus armor. Lethalaty now remains as a more fair version of flat armorpen while mages remain on their flat magicpen and don't have to deal with a level dependent "ap lethalaty". Ad has in theory more lethalaty in itemform (edge of night) but also it scales with level and enemies have mostly like 40 basearmor more as basemr. while this is no big scinece graduation work i hope you still enjoyed this and don't circlejerk as much as if assassins or mages are better and have better items. Ofcourse itempassives got mostly ignored here but regarding penetration it should now be more fair between both clases.

2 Comments

Jmman5/16/2018, 6:12:53 PM1 votes

you didn't include that the AD items have the higher end AD values and special effects compared to the AP items have lower end AP value and have very niche effects.

230 ap vs 200 ad

if ap is buying the boots they are giving up a major defense buy or utility buy.

item 3165 is only worth it if they have massive heals. If no heals you are paying a lot for just the pen.

item 3036 % more damage compared to 5% more pen item 3135. (ad vs ap values puts it about the same)

Don't know how the got the 10% more magic damage without an item. (lookin at the 4 items)

Then item 3151 ticks and a dot that can refresh. Only spells applying it. So its not like item 3153 doing the damage for EACH auto attack. In 3 secs an AAer can get off 3 or more procs for 24% plus. Then item 3151 only burned for 3%.

item 3091 compared to item 3071 come on man. What mages builds it. how is 30 resists from 6 AA from MAGES = to 24% ac, more damage, run speed proc, CD, hp and AD?

I can go on and on. But I get the idea your trying to put out there. But there is ALOT more then just pen alone.