Riot, please don't become the new Jagex.

4EtQTKtcfT··329 votes·14,429 views

Basically what the title is saying. You know the company Jagex right? They own the game called Runescape. That game used to have 200.000+ players online at a time, now it barely has 30k-50k. What actually happened to the game that made it go downhills from such a highly popular game to meh.

The reason why Runescape failed...was...because JAXED DID NOT LISTEN TO THEIR PLAYERBASE AT ALL! People may have different opinions of when Runescape died, but the statistics don't lie. Jagex implemented a whole new combat system called "EOC" despite the fact that 90% of the players did not want these changes to be implemented into the game! They forced it (keep in mind the word forced). Jagex did not listen to their playerbase, now they are paying the price for it.

What is the reason to why I brought this up? It's because of the fact that Riot right now isn't listening to their players at all. Let me give you some good examples.

  1. Remember when XinZhao was buffed on the PBE? People were begging Riot not to bring him to the live servers, but they ignored the players, and guess what happened? Xin's winrate skyrocketed to 60%.

  2. Dynamic Queue. Yes, the majority of the players don't want this, so I will use this as an example. DQ itself isn't bad, but the thing is that Riot is basically saying "play with friends or transfer over to tetris". They force players to do something they don't want to. I mean, most of the players would want SoloQ right? The problem here is that if SoloQ would be implemented into the game, it would divide the game (just like it did with Runescape when Jagex decided to go back and implement "Old School Runescape) and DQ might go wasted, which wouln't be very good for a company that has put a lot of money and effort into making this, so this is debatable.

  3. Mordekaiser rework. I do not post on the Boards often, but I know there's a guy called Malicious Metal who is a very passionate Morde player. He could probably tell about this better than me, but I will make a try. When Mordekaiser was reworked, Riot tried to force Mordekaiser from top/mid to ADC. Not only that, but they also changed Morde's kit A LOT. Now this isn't always necessarily a bad thing, but this time it was. People were not happy about this rework, and hoped that Riot would revert it and re-rework him later. They still did not listen to their playerbase, and let Mordekaiser be as he was. Not until they noticed that the new Morde's playstyle was toxic, did they change him. But in what way? They nerfed him, to the ground. Instead of figuring out a new rework for him, right? Sure it would take some more time, but wouldn't it have been worth it? I am certain that they had other Mordekaiser rework ideas they had ditched earlier, so why not go back and rethink how they actually want to change this champion?

I could go on for days about this, but chances are, people would be too lazy to read a novel which is understandable, so I will keep it short.

RIOT, LEARN FROM OTHER COMPANIES MISTAKES SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO REDO THEM!

270 Comments

MegaManYYZ171 votes

if Riot listened 100% to the player base, they would be ran into the ground. how many threads are out there that X champ needs nerfs and buffs. they would be a dog chasing their own tale.

believe it or not but Riot does listen to the player base but doesn't overreact to the vocal ones.

Zenthon Prime72 votes

I don't think anyone wants that. I think what people want is Riot to not make absurdly terrible balance decisions that practically everyone told them would be terrible.

See: Morde rework, Xin buffs, release Warlord's

4EtQTKtcfT5 votes

{quoted}

I don't think anyone wants that. I think what people want is Riot to not make absurdly terrible balance decisions that practically everyone told them would be terrible.

See: Morde rework, Xin buffs, release Warlord's

Yes, exactly. But how would they know what's terrible and what isn't if they never listen to the players?

Shadowjak1017 votes

They have their own professional play testers who are much more intelligent and knowledgeable about the game than us

WoonStruck11 votes

{quoted}

They have their own professional play testers who are much more intelligent and knowledgeable about the game than us

Except they don't, or Graves, Xin, etc would have never made it to the PBE in their current state. Yet, they made it to live....

Explain that if they're 'much more intelligent and knowledgeable about the game than us.'

WadeWilson13375 votes

This. If someone tries to tell you that Graves is a balanced champion, dont reason with them. They are special.

MegaManYYZ51 votes

you know there are hundreds of other examples where the vocal community thought it was a terrible idea but turned out well right?

everyone remembers the negative stuff but never the positive ones.

Zenthon Prime18 votes

Oh, there are countless bad examples too. The issue is that they're getting less numerous, especially in these big updates (juggernauts/preseason/mages/etc.). When the balance team is starting to be as bad as Boards/Reddit at figuring at balance, we have issues.

Leetri28 votes

Remember the juggernaut update? A LOT of the community said the juggernauts were weak as hell, so Riot listened and buffed them, and we all know how that went.

shteeeb6 votes

And you don't think it's possible that Riot overbuffed them?

YCitizenSnipsY9 votes

I don't get what you are trying to argue with him about. Yes they over buffed them, at the communities request. Not a single juggernaut update was well received initially, then Riot broke them all because everyone kept crying about how weak they are.

UrPalAl4 votes

Also, remember those Lux buffs that the community asked for?

FrickendaChicken5 votes

Riot follows a design philosophy of finding the max range of where something shouldn't go then moving it so they can find out where it should be instead. I personally appreciate as well as dislike this system. It's a flawed but smart way of design. All of those examples you gave are great examples of their philosophy. These examples' releases were, to put it simply, overpowered.

But all of these examples are being looked at and quickly fixed to be in a good place.

They come out OP so Riot knows that- for certain -that aspect of the game shouldn't be that way ever again. Then they get nerfed for two reasons, to know where Riot can't put that item that low in power ever again, and to gauge the median of the two strengths.

Then they find the median and toy with that. Mordekaiser is in a decent but not a good place, and Riot has spoken about reworking him again to place him where it is best for the game. Not the bot lane, the solo lane. Riot has even geared all of his recent buffs to be top lane buffs! I can't speak much on Xin Zhao simply because I haven't seen him played in a very long time. Warlords is in a fairly stable place atm.

A big problem is with how each item starts. It starts horribly, but ends balanced.

Another problem is that the PBE isn't apparently doing its job or Riot is ignoring the PBE, these changes wouldn't come out on live horribly OP or UP if one of these two problems was fixed. And from what I've heard, the PBE doesn't give enough data.

GaleWinUnleashed5 votes

The PBE isn't for balance testing, it's to find bugs. Specifically the game-breaking ones. Some balance decisions are made based on PBE feedback, yes, but it's not the main goal.

Teslablade10 votes

{quoted}

if Riot listened 100% to the player base, they would be ran into the ground. how many threads are out there that X champ needs nerfs and buffs. they would be a dog chasing their own tale.

believe it or not but Riot does listen to the player base but doesn't overreact to the vocal ones.

He didn't say 100%, and in most of the cases he provided, Riot SHOULD'VE listened l.

MegaManYYZ12 votes

and there are hundreds of other cases where they have.

the company has been making large changes for SEASONS, where any change, suggested or made, people complain about prior to it even being live.

General Esdeath 11 votes

Individual people not learning counterplay is one thing, but when a majority of players hate DQ and you refuse to fix it, there's a problem.

MegaManYYZ1 votes

if so many people HATE DQ, why do they continue to play where the rankings don't decay?

DQ is a big problem in very high ELO (less 10% of the ranking community) but I don't see it being as big of a problem in lower ELO just a reason for people to blame for not climbing.

Randomonium11 votes

uh, because there isn't another option. If you want to play summoner's rift you either dynamic queue or you play blind pick (which most people find HORRIBLE.) If people had the option between solo queue and dynamic queue (which Riot promised we would), most people would ditch dynamic queue in a heartbeat.

MegaManYYZ1 votes

or you can play normal drafts.

Randomonium13 votes

Which is dynamic queue....

KaisadiIIa28 votes

To be honest, if RIOT did what people want LeBlanc would only be able to kill minions with her combo, Urgot would be the only viable AD Carry, mages like Brand would have a 75% winrate, Malphite's passive would deal damage to himself, Zed would have a 60 sec CD shuriken, Yasuo would be just a minion with 20% winrate and a shield that only blocks Zed's shurikens, Riven would have a resource and her Q would consume 95% of it, mages would regenerate 10% of their mana each second and Taric would be the only viable support.

I don't often agree with RIOT, but their decisions are far better than 99% of the common suggestions in this board.

McKeifus59 votes

This is an ancient problem, and every online game has been plagued by it. The cycle goes thusly:

  • Company X creates great game
  • Early adopters flock to the game, create a great community, give tons of feedback, and make the game great
  • Game gets popular, second wave comes in and integrates with the great community
  • Older community hates newcomers, early adopters leave for another game
  • Second community fiercely supports game, game explodes, me-too's join
  • Third community complains about how much game sucks, it's too hard, takes too much work, etc; game changes
  • Second community of loyalists hates game changes, and leaves
  • Me-too's are disloyal hangers on, and leave once the community shrinks
  • Game dies, devs struggle to hold on to player base

I have watched this exact cycle happen with: Ultima Online EverQuest World of Warcraft Diablo 2(enshrined in Diablo 3) Numerous other online games

When whiners win, everyone loses. And in all fairness, the devs have an impossible job: Sift through the mass of forum garbage and game data to find true problems with the game. And we have an impossible task: endure what may be temporary discomfort to avoid ruining the game through our whining. And the devs also have to contend with the inevitable bean counters that flock to game companies like this once they become profitable, and become driven towards ever greater profits - which means increasing the player base of easy to please and easy to fleece sheep.

A few examples:

  • Ultima Online

    • What made it great: Hard as nuts gameplay, rewarding game cycle, strong verisimilitude, extremely hardcore high level competition
    • Ruined by: Trammel; An easy to play Theme Park version of UO. Hand holding ensued, the player base became more whiners than players, and the game slowly become easier - and less satisfying to play. Button-mashing become more important than strategy, the devs stopped experimenting with interesting gameplay in favor of quick and easy reward systems, and the game rapidly decayed.
  • Everquest

    • What made it great: Strong fantasy themes, gorgeous art, interesting world history and writing, great magic system, humongous world filled with mystery that was difficult to traverse, granting a sense of realism and wonder
    • Ruined by: Fast Travel; The world of Norrath was once very difficult to traverse, with enemies insta-killing low level players. There was an economy built around facilitating travel between increasingly harder zones. Starting in Luclan, the game zones became easier to defeat and level through, and the harder, higher level zones became overridden with farmers. Then they added Fast Travel stations. The game quickly went from a mystical world of mystery and danger to a theme park of easy, boring encounters. The newer zones lacked the story, background lore, and interesting design of the earlier zones. High level raids became highly accessible, and no longer a challenge for high level players. The game quickly dissolved into a simplistic grindfest.
  • World of Warcraft

    • What made it great: Gripping, seat of your pants gameplay, beautiful world, strong community, hardcore high level raids, solid release cycle for new content
    • Ruined by: Easy raids and dungeons; WoW was a brutal grind at release, and didn't even have any end game content. It offered very little outside of consensual PvP and a massive, time-consuming grind. But it was beautiful, and the visceral, satisfying moment-to-moment gameplay redefined the MMO genre. Blizzard iterated on the raid structure seen in EQ, and polished it to a gleaming shine by the end of Burning Crusade. In the next expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, they tried to make raids more accessible due to players whining about not accessing the content. But the fun of raiding was the challenge, and once the challenge dissipated, so to did its player base. From around 11 million at its peak to less than 6 million in a couple of years. The game is now super simple to play, without a single challenging encounter until max level. Even the early raids are super easy. Now, to access a challenge, you have to play on "hard mode", hidden away deep in the recesses of the game.

Now this is all from my perspective and from the anecdotes of my peers. But I watched the changes happen, I watched the pushback on forums and from in game chat, and I watched the player populations decline with each poor decision to capitulate to whiny, weak players who just want an easy, simple experience. And it has destroyed every game I have loved through the years.

Now, in League, I am seeing the very beginning of this same cycle starting to come to the third stage, the me-too stage. Where new players join because of the popularity of watching eSports, but want to be able to play at a pro level, or feel like a pro player, with no work invested. The game is too hard, requires too much learning, and they want to blame everyone but themselves for their failures - up to and including the people who made the game.

There are DEFINITELY balance problems in LoL. And there always will be. But at the end of the day, Riot has to be careful they are balancing themselves for a game that is deep and satisfying, because when they balance the game for easy and cheap, they are going to draw a crowd of temporary users. These players will play the game while it is popular, and either force it to be the game they want, or move on. Then they will move on anyways. And the hardcore players who have been playing since S1 will have moved on, and remember wistfully the glory days of League. And you can never go back, Riot. Once you alienate that hardcore base, they will probably never come back.

And finally...

  • League of legends
    • What makes it great: Scaling competitive structure, interesting variety of champion mechanics, variety of character builds
    • Ruined by: ???; I would guess LoL will be ruined by too-easy gameplay that makes differentiating the skill of different player classes very difficult. When players can win without any of the fundamentals that LoL has been known for, there is a serious problem. Cheap builds, OP champs, and Ranked queue tactics should not ever allow terrible players into high level Ranks. And changing the game into a twitchfest will achieve exactly that. The game needs to be balanced, easy to learn, difficult to master, and fun. The game has been there, but lately things are moving toward being easier to mash'n'win. The game is still great, and has plenty of time to turn around and balance to a more hardcore crowd. But eventually the crowds will leave, the pros will get tired of losing to clearly inferior players, and the community will leave.

Don't give into your own hype, Rito. Pls.

Strike the Ping9 votes

{quoted}

This is an ancient problem, and every online game has been plagued by it. The cycle goes thusly:

  • Company X creates great game
  • Early adopters flock to the game, create a great community, give tons of feedback, and make the game great
  • Game gets popular, second wave comes in and integrates with the great community
  • Older community hates newcomers, early adopters leave for another game
  • Second community fiercely supports game, game explodes, me-too's join
  • Third community complains about how much game sucks, it's too hard, takes too much work, etc; game changes
  • Second community of loyalists hates game changes, and leaves
  • Me-too's are disloyal hangers on, and leave once the community shrinks
  • Game dies, devs struggle to hold on to player base

I have watched this exact cycle happen with: Ultima Online EverQuest World of Warcraft Diablo 2(enshrined in Diablo 3) Numerous other online games

When whiners win, everyone loses. And in all fairness, the devs have an impossible job: Sift through the mass of forum garbage and game data to find true problems with the game. And we have an impossible task: endure what may be temporary discomfort to avoid ruining the game through our whining. And the devs also have to contend with the inevitable bean counters that flock to game companies like this once they become profitable, and become driven towards ever greater profits - which means increasing the player base of easy to please and easy to fleece sheep.

A few examples:

  • Ultima Online
    • What made it great: Hard as nuts gameplay, rewarding game cycle, strong verisimilitude, extremely hardcore high level competition
    • Ruined by: Trammel; An easy to play Theme Park version of UO. Hand holding ensued, the player base became more whiners than players, and the game slowly become easier - and less satisfying to play. Button-mashing become more important than strategy, the devs stopped experimenting with interesting gameplay in favor of quick and easy reward systems, and the game rapidly decayed.
  • Everquest
    • What made it great: Strong fantasy themes, gorgeous art, interesting world history and writing, great magic system, humongous world filled with mystery that was difficult to traverse, granting a sense of realism and wonder
    • Ruined by: Fast Travel; The world of Norrath was once very difficult to traverse, with enemies insta-killing low level players. There was an economy built around facilitating travel between increasingly harder zones. Starting in Luclan, the game zones became easier to defeat and level through, and the harder, higher level zones became overridden with farmers. Then they added Fast Travel stations. The game quickly went from a mystical world of mystery and danger to a theme park of easy, boring encounters. The newer zones lacked the story, background lore, and interesting design of the earlier zones. High level raids became highly accessible, and no longer a challenge for high level players. The game quickly dissolved into a simplistic grindfest.
  • World of Warcraft
    • What made it great: Gripping, seat of your pants gameplay, beautiful world, strong community, hardcore high level raids, solid release cycle for new content
    • Ruined by: Easy raids and dungeons; WoW was a brutal grind at release, and didn't even have any end game content. It offered very little outside of consensual PvP and a massive, time-consuming grind. But it was beautiful, and the visceral, satisfying moment-to-moment gameplay redefined the MMO genre. Blizzard iterated on the raid structure seen in EQ, and polished it to a gleaming shine by the end of Burning Crusade. In the next expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, they tried to make raids more accessible due to players whining about not accessing the content. But the fun of raiding was the challenge, and once the challenge dissipated, so to did its player base. From around 11 million at its peak to less than 6 million in a couple of years. The game is now super simple to play, without a single challenging encounter until max level. Even the early raids are super easy. Now, to access a challenge, you have to play on "hard mode", hidden away deep in the recesses of the game.

Now this is all from my perspective and from the anecdotes of my peers. But I watched the changes happen, I watched the pushback on forums and from in game chat, and I watched the player populations decline with each poor decision to capitulate to whiny, weak players who just want an easy, simple experience. And it has destroyed every game I have loved through the years.

Now, in League, I am seeing the very beginning of this same cycle starting to come to the third stage, the me-too stage. Where new players join because of the popularity of watching eSports, but want to be able to play at a pro level, or feel like a pro player, with no work invested. The game is too hard, requires too much learning, and they want to blame everyone but themselves for their failures - up to and including the people who made the game.

There are DEFINITELY balance problems in LoL. And there always will be. But at the end of the day, Riot has to be careful they are balancing themselves for a game that is deep and satisfying, because when they balance the game for easy and cheap, they are going to draw a crowd of temporary users. These players will play the game while it is popular, and either force it to be the game they want, or move on. Then they will move on anyways. And the hardcore players who have been playing since S1 will have moved on, and remember wistfully the glory days of League. And you can never go back, Riot. Once you alienate that hardcore base, they will probably never come back.

And finally...

  • League of legends
    • What makes it great: Scaling competitive structure, interesting variety of champion mechanics, variety of character builds
    • Ruined by: ???; I would guess LoL will be ruined by too-easy gameplay that makes differentiating the skill of different player classes very difficult. When players can win without any of the fundamentals that LoL has been known for, there is a serious problem. Cheap builds, OP champs, and Ranked queue tactics should not ever allow terrible players into high level Ranks. And changing the game into a twitchfest will achieve exactly that. The game needs to be balanced, easy to learn, difficult to master, and fun. The game has been there, but lately things are moving toward being easier to mash'n'win. The game is still great, and has plenty of time to turn around and balance to a more hardcore crowd. But eventually the crowds will leave, the pros will get tired of losing to clearly inferior players, and the community will leave.

Don't give into your own hype, Rito. Pls.

I'd like to add SOCOM to this list. What a disaster that series became as they tried to attract the Call of Duty crowd.

gatchi8 votes

Everyone needs to read this. Doesnt matter how you feel about the changes to the game. Just read it.

Spanked eGirl36 votes

Can confirm, I remember quitting Runescape very quickly after the combat changes.

shyv21 votes

as someone who quit runescape due to all the shit changes i find this post hilarious

i'm literally doing the exact same thing on league

i used to have a membership on runescape and i played for several hours a day every day

now, on league, i refuse to buy any more rp and i play.. maybe 1 game a day? a lot of the time just a bot game for first win. i used to play solo a lot, but now i only ever play when my friends are online. seems like riot is pushing social play way too much.

i've pretty much completely given up on ranked because the ranking system says that any boosted monkey can be the same rank as me, who actually took the time and effort to learn enough to get to higher elos. i either play normals and do stupid off meta shit with my friends or i play ranked and do stupid off meta shit with my friends. either way, i do not give a shit if we lose. none of us do. ranked doesn't mean anything anymore.

Eugoogalizer14 votes

I don't think people want riot to listen to EVERY thing the player base complains about, but the ones that are with overwhelming criticism. The player base have often been correct on issues that were widely concerning. These type of things can be game breaking. I never played runescape, but I certainly put my time in Star Wars Galaxies. We begged them to not go with the combat upgrade. They did, and not long after that subscribers left. 5 years later, the dying game finally shut down their servers since most worlds were deserted. Even their higher ups(John Smedley) said it was a stupid mistake.

Again don't listen to every little one, but when an issue is hitting thousands or tens of thousands(I know its not millions) it might be worth taking a second look.

Malicious Metal11 votes

Funny thing, I used to play a LOT of RuneScape back in the day and even play some of it from time to time. Then again, I'm mostly playing due to the fantastic quests and lore and not for the grinding aspect but JaGeX been really doing a great job at making the game more enjoyable and trying to make the players decide on some major content.

The thing is though, that you can't really apply this to League since RuneScape's a MMORPG that doesn't force you to take part in most activities you don't like. Say, if they buffed tanks into oblivion it would influence not only those playing tanks but also mages, bruisers, adc's and so on while in RS the content would simply be there and you could decide not to utilize it at all and go about your routine as if nothing happened. That's why the EoC update was such a mess since it was something that affected both Questers, PvPers, PvM'ers and most other players.

Long story short; League won't be able to be influenced by their players as much as RuneScape as it has to evolve to keep relevant, yet if there's a MAJOR dismay over some aspects Riot might have to take a bloody hint.

//take all of this with a grain of salt, I'm a bit tipsy atm//

Snow Tea10 votes

Funny thing is I quit runescape because of EOC.. and moved to league of legends!.... now funny thing is I only play once a month in s6 of League. No soloq Deathtimers are too long at 20 mins, allowing comebacks to be more harder to achieve. ( since a teamfight can at 20 mins can get you to your inhibs tower) Forced dynamic q Unbalanced champions thats pretty much most of what is bad about this season.

superfire4449 votes

Jagex, nowadays, is an amazing company who listens to their customers. They even released 2007 runescape where updates are polled. The players decide.

4EtQTKtcfT14 votes

{quoted}

Jagex actually is an amazing company who listens to their customers. They even released 2007 runescape where updates are polled. The players decide.

But you can't deny they fucked up big time. They HAD to release 07 or the game woulda been rinsed.

superfire44421 votes

Thats true, but they are putting in actual effort to maintain oldschool + they admitted they were wrong/are willing to listen. Riot has none of these traits.

Le Boss14 votes

Riot partnered with a Chinese company, now they are crap. Guess what Jagex is doing very soon?

Selling to a chinese gaming company. They were willing to listen, now the game will go downhill again,

Guy Fox Teemo3 votes

Riot has to partner with Tencent, or else they couldn't have the game in China. They didn't jsut go "Hey, LETS SELL EVERYTHIGN TO CHINA!"

Also add to the fact that Tencent, has zero decision on how the game develops, they merely "own" riot games in a sense that they get a lot of the money. But they cannot do anything to Riot Games.

DahakaProd8 votes

Being a former RuneScape player who was basically told to adapt or leave, I can't tell you how much I've thought the same way about League recently. This post reminded me of those days, still remember the exact date EoC came in and left me hanging, thrown away like garbage, after 10 000+ hours in RuneScape, 20.11.2012.

Back on topic though, League has never felt so alien to me, after RuneScape showed me the door, I came to League, been playing since season 3, changes in general are healthy for the game, sure, but this season is pushing me to my limits. DynamicQ, marksmen update, now mages are about to get bonked on the head, I don't know, deja vu moment for me, feelsbadman. Don't want to get shown the door again.

Wyrmblade6 votes

Same thing happened with World of Warcraft

t0ad55 votes

They lost my support with Mordekaiser and I haven't seen anything good since.

Rendarkan5 votes

Actually what really killed Runescape was 2 major factors.

Bot Nuke Day and Combat Overhaul.

When Bot Nuke Day came it eliminated 90% of all the accounts on the game itself, roughly leaving the main non injection ones. The only worlds that were still heavily populated were major trade worlds like World 1. This drastically shifted the balance of the game's economy within a matter of a week.

The second was Combat Reconstruction. Runescape players were 60% to 75% melee due to the fact that melee was the best option all around. It was rare to find a decent mage without Ancient spells and anything ranger better than Karils/Darkbow in black Dragonhide. This shift in the combat weakened the melee class and strengthened mage and range classes with the use of cooldown abilities. A high majority of players left because the game was becoming too WoW like. As much as I disagree and as much as the dedicated players hated it it was needed. Warrior types were far too common and were way too powerful without at least 5 mages to drop him or her before they got to you and nuked you with a God Sword, most likely Armadyls or Bandos God Sword. Dharok's was rarer but vastly more effective.

Ecchi Gorira5 votes

Listening to the "playerbase" is probably a very wrong thing to do. What you define as "playerbase" is the vocal minority of the game and it by no means represent the opinion of the community. And a company has no contractual obligations to listen to you so saying it "forced" changes is an overstatement.

Mokkun3 votes

Runescape died because WoW stole it's lunch money, screwed its mother, and murdered its children in front of it.

jdizzle3674 votes

Runescape died because its player base generally consisted of much younger gamers generally younger than 16. That player base outgrew the game and Jagex was unable to replace them.

darkmatchwaldo3 votes

But should riot really balance their game around people complaining about things that they don't like? That's a recipe for disaster. Riot does listen to their player base, that doesn't mean they're going to do everything that people want. The main issue is they've set up a situation for themselves that's impossible to balance. With 120+ champions and an unholy amount of items there's too many variables in play. A nerf to something that everyone is complaining about winds up being a buff to something else that gets abused.

The other main issue is that they wind up doing most of the balancing around the pro scene. The juggernaut patch RIGHT before worlds was no accident. It let them get Darius Mordekaiser into worlds to show off the ghost dragon and epic pentadunks. They can't make a change to the pro scene without affecting bronze games. So while Mordekaiser Darius was super fun to watch on a pro level, it was hell in SoloQ. Either they get permabanned and piss off Darius Mordekaiser mains, go 2490127409/0/1294012 on the enemy team and make your life miserable, or they go 0/241240981240/0 on your team and still make your life miserable.

Nanuk Pihoqahiak5 votes

{quoted}

That's a recipe for disaster.

I hated that quest in Runescape. Soooooo long!

Axxlon3 votes

Riot...

USED

...to listen to their players, guys.

Wake up. Wake up and smell the teemo shrooms. Seasons 1-3 are long past us, and Riot has let their fame get to their heads. They've come to the conclusion that they're too big to fail, so they gradually started listening less and less to their players.

OogieBoogs1 votes

[deleted]

WarlockLaw43 votes

[{quoted}](name=Space Man J,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cyXimTOQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-08T17:09:08.708+0000)

No. They didn't. Riot had zero intention to make morde an adc. PLAYERS did.

LOL ok you either have a short memory or haven't been here for very long. Morde's rework added in a passive that gave him full experience for anyone minions that die near him. Additionally his W became only ally champion targetable, meaning he couldn't self cast it or cast it on minions. Additionally any dragon he helped kill post-6 respawned for him as a controllable pet. The last of those 3 changes heavily encourages him to go bot/mid/jungle and discourages him from going top without tp. The other 2 heavily benefit from Morde being in lane with another champion, kind of like bot lane. Finally Riot talked about bot lane Morde when this rework was released and how he'd be a good option as an adc replacement despite having no cc or gap closer. In case you still don't believe that Riot wanted him to go duo bot here is a direct quote from Riot on one their posts discussing the juggernaut update.

We’re trying Mordekaiser out as a duo lane juggernaut, intended to step up in lieu of a regular marksmen pick. Yep. Morde’s rework has some pretty unique aspects. For starters, Creeping Death now only deals damage if Morde and his targeted ally stay near each other, a change intended to help entice Morde into duo lanes the way we mentioned. Secondly, even if he’s playing in lane with a support, he’ll earn full experience from any minion he’s able to last hit (support will get their usual half share of xp). This means that Mordekaiser, unless he dies horribly beforehand, will always hit level six way before his lane opponents, and will always have a pretty handy advantage when it comes to bot lane battles and early game dragon contests.

TrollyZZ1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Space Man J,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cyXimTOQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-08T17:09:08.708+0000)

No. They didn't. Riot had zero intention to make morde an adc. PLAYERS did. The same type of players who think Aurelion Sol is a support. You can't have a company who literally just listens to player base, because the player base is so vast and opinions differ literally per person. You can't say this person opinion is better, and ignore the other player base. So they take considerations into account from the players, and they do what they can, but overall, the idea that they are the reason this game is how it is, is silly. People make the game generally what it is. Riot didn't make this META, or what champions go where, or who synergizes with who, that is completely player driven and discovered then spread.

Stop raging and actually contribute instead of just whining in forums. Alot of people want soloQ, alot of people don't. Overall, Riot should do what they find to be the best choice, regardless of player base opinions, because that's what a GOOD company does. Jesus, take a business class.

Ps. If riot gave everything what the player base "wanted", they wouldn't make any money because skins would be ip based, and they would be walked all over on, and lose their diversity and the point of having designers in different fields.

Why the hell is this being downvoted!? most of this is true lol.

OogieBoogs2 votes

{quoted}

Why the hell is this being downvoted!? most of this is true lol.

because the truth hurts ;)

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