Talon Rework and Your Thoughts on it

SlntReaper·Aug 6, 2016·1 votes·1,761 views

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So, as many of you have seen, on Surrender@20 Talon is getting a rework. As someone who plays Talon quite frequently for a level 21, I am interested by your thoughts on whether he will be good/bad and if his play style will change dramatically. (I, for one, think he will become a mobile assassin that needs more sticking power to do damage.) I am curious to see especially what non Talon players think about the rework.

28 Comments

SouL1essAug 6, 20164 votes

Answering another set of questions, Statikk also confirmed Talon will be losing his "blink" effect from E but that we'll have to wait and see what replaces it:

One phrase.

Go fuck yourself Riot.

dragon1xxAug 6, 20161 votes

We've been pretty cognizant to keep Talon fairly low intensity when it comes to complexity of inputs. He will definitely not feel like playing Zed.

Oh so zed is now the benchmark for "healthy/normal?"

taleofsonataAug 6, 20161 votes

I'm pretty sure its going to be a point and click Dash attack like in the splash art.

SouL1essAug 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure its going to be a point and click Dash attack like in the splash art.

And that is going to Kill Talon for me.

Nothing is more core to his kit than an actual blink gap closer. Shadow Assault (both AoE and invisbility parts) is not, Noxian Diplomacy (with its retardedly high scaling) is not, his damage amplification on Cutthroat is not, his Rake is debatably a staple of his kit considering all other Assassins and their AoE farming capabilities but still is NOT the core of his kit. The blink on his gap closer is.

It is one MAJOR advantage (instantaneous movement often causes longer reaction time by enemy + blink moves Talon immediately behind target and ignores projectiles in flight towards him) Talon gets over all other assassins and of course, Riot decides to remove the most iconic part of Talon.

His silence on Cutthroat was not core. He can still be played without the silence, but losing the blink is going too far.

[{quoted}](name=JZ Jora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvfBKY9i,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-08-06T04:23:08.742+0000)

Full crit is best.

I miss when Trinity Force had crit. That shit was good.

I miss when Infinity Edge had 25% crit so that I can build another item while still keeping high AD and 100% Critical Hit Chance.

ADCs with base resistance gets killed just from AA+Q and I don't need to use anything else.

And that's why Critical Hit is absolutely broken when you pair it with AD assassins.

Not saying that it's broken only on AD assassins... because Critical Hit System is basically inflated Marksmen Scaling towards End Game.

ÂzaIeaAug 10, 20161 votes

Pretty sure that is Katarina's core. Talon's gap-closer was made the same as Kat's just because in the lore they live in the same house, and received training from the same person.

ChaddyFantomeAug 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

One phrase.

Go fuck yourself Riot.

Whatever they replace it with better be the most amazing badass Assassin skill in the game if they are gonna remove his current E.

Edge of DaybreakAug 6, 20162 votes

So they are going to remove his blink and his aoe while increasing his combo length. Yeah I dont need to be a genius to tell you that sounds like trash unless he is insanely overtuned.

AcidTheWarlockAug 6, 20161 votes

He better be cool as hell cuz I don't have any more refunds

Ok sure but whyAug 6, 20161 votes

b-but i love talon the way he is

full crit talon

SouL1essAug 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=JZ Jora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvfBKY9i,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-08-06T02:49:55.058+0000)

b-but i love talon the way he is

full crit talon

Rework needs to make Q a single target cast and not an AA modifier :^)

Seriously though, critical hits should be disabled for AD assassins (and converted to another stat, similar in function to Jhin) if Riot wants some sort of balance to them. Because two critical hits improves an AD assassin's single rotation damage by almost 90% and there isn't one AD assassin that doesn't like at least a decent amount of Critical Hit chance.

Ok sure but whyAug 6, 20162 votes

Full crit is best.

I miss when Trinity Force had crit. That shit was good.

dragon1xxAug 6, 20162 votes

heh Rengar

ZOO WEE MAMAAug 6, 20161 votes

Whens the rework coming out? [zombie-brand-mindblown]

SlntReaperAug 6, 20161 votes

I don't know, I kind of like the direction they are taking with him, but I think he's gonna do no damage. He will be built full tank. I'm sad, since there are other 100-0 champions I could play but I like Talon thematically. He is just cool. He's gonna do no damage, and that's a fact. It's just if he's more mobile, he will be able to escape team fights better.

Sightless66Aug 6, 20162 votes

What exactly do you base these claims on? Riot has never said that they intend to decrease his damage (in fact, they've said that that want to lower his reliability, which is usually used as a justification for INCREASING damage), and they've given no indication that they intend to give him any kind of %hp damage mechanic or utility that would enable tank builds.

I mean, I get it if you're just worried in general, but if you're worried because of the direction Riot has said they are taking him in, then I really just don't get it.

SlntReaperAug 6, 20161 votes

What I'm saying is he will gain mobility but will become a utility tank much like Malphite except w/o the 5man ult. He will become a Yorick, someone who fades into nothing.

Sightless66Aug 6, 20162 votes

Why? Where was it implied that they would add utility? Where was it said that they would decrease damage scaling? How does the addition of mobility lead to him becoming a utility tank?

You seem to be making a huge assumption, and I don't see any justification for it in anything Riot said. That's what I'm trying to get at.

SlntReaperAug 9, 20161 votes

Sorry, i meant he will be useless and people will build him tank because he will do no damage.

Sightless66Aug 10, 20162 votes

While I appreciate the clarification, it doesn't really help answer my question. I'm not confused at all about what you think will happen. My problem is that I have no idea what you read that makes you think it will happen.

Decreased damage scaling has not been a proposed change for him. Neither was worse base damages. The only thing related to his damage that they mentioned was making his burst take the same amount of time as the burst of other assassins.

So, to make my question very clear: What exactly has Riot said or done that makes you think this is a possible outcome?

SlntReaperAug 12, 20161 votes

I am basing my assumptions off of the example of lee sin, who builds tank but could do a lot of damage. He has great situational mobility and his scaling aren't that bad, but people build him tank.

Sightless66Aug 12, 20163 votes

Lee builds tanky because he has very high base damages, and because he has strong initiation utility. Additionally, his damage scaling is mediocre. Not terrible, but not good either. Finally, he has huge sustained fighting potential that gives him good sustained dps, while his initial burst is good but not amazing. That incentivizes builds tanky enough to allow Lee to Those are necessary characteristics for him building tanky, and Talon has none of these characteristics. None of these things are set to change, Talon will not be tanky.

If you're only looking at one example of a tanky mobile champion without examining why that champion builds tanky, then you're going to have a very skewed perspective. A better example would be looking at other mobile champions like Zed and Leblanc who never build tanky and never will. Low utility, high damage, burst-focused. That's the model Talon fits into.

He has no utility, no initiation potential, shitty CC, great damage scaling, and shitty dps. What exactly about those characteristics supports "tanky builds"? Looks like a 0% chance that he'll build tanky from where I stand.

SlntReaperAug 12, 20161 votes

True enough. I concede that Talon may be ok. But they are still taking his burst damage away, a fact pointed out by M00NMAN and giving him mobility.

Sightless66Aug 12, 20162 votes

Taking burst damage away is not reay the same thing as slowing it down by half a second. He will very likely do as much damage as before. He may actually do more, given that the introduction of unreliability is very often a justification for increasing potential damage.

So, they are not removing burst. They are slowing burst.

SlntReaperAug 12, 20161 votes

Which will allow better escapes such as flash. That reduces his damage. (Although it may be healthier)

Sightless66Aug 12, 20162 votes

Which is where the higher mobility to chase someone down and keep applying damage comes in. They get a chance to escape, and Talon gets his chance to follow. Same way an assassin like zed works. They flash, you follow. If you react quickly, you'll get your kill.

This is also why you can justify raw damage increases. You can allow more damage when it can be avoided.

SlntReaperAug 12, 20161 votes

hm. Never thought of it that way. But that goes back to the classic "Talon will be built tank" problem. Because he has the sticking power.

Sightless66Aug 12, 20161 votes

Two problems with that idea. First, he still lacks dps and everything else i said earlier. Don't forget those problems. Lacking necessary characteristics still kills that idea

Second, following someone for a 1.5 second combo is not sticking power. Give it a long cd and he won't be sticking to anyone. Good for burst, bad for sticking.

XerathielOct 20, 20161 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/wXEZdP3T-talon-rework-tweak-please