"...we should buff weaker marksmen...or that it's just meta that she's strong."

SlntReaper·Nov 18, 2016·65 votes·4,582 views

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Please no

144 Comments

SlntReaperNov 18, 201619 votes

The fact that they are BUFFING weaker marksmen instead of nerfing Vayne shows we have a problem.

Brain Errör 404Nov 18, 20168 votes

Is that saying that this Vayne circle jerk is going too far or that Riot has the wrong idea?

SlntReaperNov 18, 20169 votes

Riot should be nerfing Vayne, not buffing other ADCs. The rest of the ADCs are FINE where they are. But Vayne is too strong. Compare it to if you had TB. If you have TB, you cure it, not add more diseases to bury the TB underneath all the other diseases.

Cosmic WarperNov 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Riot should be nerfing Vayne, not buffing other ADCs. The rest of the ADCs are FINE where they are. But Vayne is too strong. Compare it to if you had TB. If you have TB, you cure it, not add more diseases to bury the TB underneath all the other diseases.

I disagree. Kalista and kog are in complete shitter spots right now. Vayne still needs to be nerfed though.

Kosm1KNov 19, 20163 votes

Yeah those two are really shitty right now, twitch too, but vayne outperforms everyone right now. Plus i don't think buffing adcs is the way to go since they're shitting on some of the assassins thanks to the reworks. I think they all have to be looked at, and some of the assassins too.

kasfasNov 18, 20162 votes

The thing is, they already did this once before, and ended up needing every other adc afterwards anyway because they were too out of line. It seems that riot uses vayne as a benchmark as to when every other as is too weak.

Basically it seems riot thinks if Blayne is meta, EVERY OTHER MARKSMAN NEEDS BUFFS, but when she isn't meta every other marksman gets nerfs. That's not ok.

ProfDrDeathNov 19, 20162 votes

Would you please quote the whole thing Meddler said, instead of just a snippet out of context?

{quoted}

It currently looks like Vayne's one of, or the strongest, marksmen right now. That means she's worth looking at. Conclusion might be that we should buff weaker marksmen, adjust items or masteries, or that it's just meta that she's strong and that's appropriate. Looking at her in the first place seems pretty important though.

Earl EulrichNov 19, 20163 votes

well, doesn´t change the fact that adcs dominate the game since about the beginning and Riot still doesn´t seem to care...the baseline should be that all marksmen are too goddamn strong (ok, maybe kalista not so much currently, but you really can´t make that kit viable without breaking it) and none deserve any sort of buff just to get to the level of the most ridiculous ones.

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 18, 201614 votes

Sigh.

See, this is something people back in Season 1-3 often criticized Riot for. Riot would nerf champions down rather than buff others to their level. More importantly, Vayne being strong in an assassin and tank meta makes sense even without the stealth changes. She's DESIGNED to 1v1 other characters. You trade this for the so-so range and the less-than-optimal tower taking.

What I'd -REALLY- like is a champion who has the ability to mark enemies and give true-sight.

Dextix LTNov 18, 20168 votes

A bounty hunter for LOL?

Yes please.

JunkοNov 18, 20162 votes

That would just remove every stealth champion from the game, this isn't Dota 2 where it is balanced around the fact that if you don't counter it, it is broken as fuck. Hell even in Dota 2 stealth is useless because of BH and Gem item.

Dextix LTNov 18, 20164 votes

Wrong. The gem is a double edged sword, it drops on death and still requires for the champs to be in range. And bounty hunter is not played that much anyways because his kit is not the strongest one out there and he can be shut down easily.

Stealth is far from useless in dota, but it has strenghts and weaknesses and is not a nightmare to balance like in LOL.

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 19, 20161 votes

To their credit, Riot did give everyone a gem in the sense of camouflage. However, a counter to true stealth doesn't exist. (Which is why I advocate for a champion who can have true sight. Give it to Diana and remove her AoE pull. Makes sense thematically.)

ZepperNov 19, 20161 votes

Riot implemented Shimmer as a counter to invisibility, though I can't say whether it's effective or not.

Auz the RipperNov 19, 20162 votes

Lee sin has true sight on all of his basic abilities

AninLegions777Nov 19, 20161 votes

On his W too? O.o

Auz the RipperNov 19, 20164 votes

Yes, he gains true sight of the ally he safeguards

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 201613 votes

ok, so far theyre planning to.

buff bork back to op
buff rageblade
buff adc even further
nerf colossus
buff fervor back to op

pretty much all in the same patch in a damage meta.

yea, this is going to be complete shit. i mean. cant they see that this is complete overkill or do they just not give a fuck about this game anymore?

i can understand tuning down colossus. but why in the ass do they have to go just entirely nuts on the damage buffs when theyre already planning to nerf the mastery?

the only champions who are even tanky right now are the ones who can use colossus reliably. its literally only that one mastery that buffed a handful of champions.

every champion that is not using colossus or is an adc is going to become comparably even weaker with all this.

SkiasNov 18, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v1kfYLkg,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-18T20:18:17.158+0000)

ok, so far theyre planning to.

buff bork back to op

buff rageblade

buff adc even further

nerf colossus

buff fervor back to op

pretty much all in the same patch in a damage meta.

yea, this is going to be complete shit. i mean. cant they see that this is complete overkill or do they just not give a fuck about this game anymore?

i can understand tuning down colossus. but why in the ass do they have to go just entirely nuts on the damage buffs when theyre already planning to nerf the mastery?

the only champions who are even tanky right now are the ones who can use colossus reliably. its literally only that one mastery that buffed a handful of champions.

every champion that is not using colossus or is an adc is going to become comparably even weaker with all this.

Welcome back season 6. I like how Colossus was only good for a few days on champs that can rapidly proc it and still is outperformed by Fervor on champs like Taric that should want it.

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20163 votes

Taric doesn't really want it though. He stays with ADC backline so he gets less of a shield for CCing one person.

MonkyOfSpaceNov 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v1kfYLkg,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-18T20:18:17.158+0000)

ok, so far theyre planning to.

buff bork back to op

buff rageblade

buff adc even further

nerf colossus

buff fervor back to op

pretty much all in the same patch in a damage meta.

yea, this is going to be complete shit. i mean. cant they see that this is complete overkill or do they just not give a fuck about this game anymore?

i can understand tuning down colossus. but why in the ass do they have to go just entirely nuts on the damage buffs when theyre already planning to nerf the mastery?

the only champions who are even tanky right now are the ones who can use colossus reliably. its literally only that one mastery that buffed a handful of champions.

every champion that is not using colossus or is an adc is going to become comparably even weaker with all this.

Dude get over it. You're such a crybaby. ADC is in a pretty shit spot right now.

PB4UAMENov 20, 20161 votes

If they are, then melee is in literal shit, and juggernauts and bruisers without CC/targeted gap closers are worse than shit.

You do realize ADCs are still entirely game and meta warping, and are the only champion sub-category to have its own dedicated role (for seven years mind you) don't you? How can you possibly say they are weak when every team needs one or more of them every game?

MonkyOfSpaceNov 22, 20161 votes

You're so retarded. Every team needs one of every role. I have nothing more to say to you, jesus are you joking right now? That's the most "reasonable" thing you can respond with??

PB4UAMENov 26, 20161 votes

You are either committing the fallacy of equivocation, or you're dumb as shit. There aren't even enough slots on a team for one of every role.

"Tanks: Vanguards, Wardens Fighters: Juggernauts, Divers Slayers: Assassins, Skirmishers Mages: Burst Mages, Battle Mages, Artillery Mages Controllers: Enchanters, Disruptors Marksmen: Marksmen"

These are the champion roles, as per RIOT, (sauce: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses) if you can count (which at this point I'm a little unsure you can) you'll notice that there are 12 different roles. Of these roles, only 1 has been mandatory in every meta since season 1, and that is ADC, renamed to 'marksman.'

Edit: Bot lane is a position, ADC is a role-- remember the distinction.

weeaboomerNov 18, 20166 votes

No what? So, azir vayne instead of buffing weaker marksmen that no longer easily punish her in lane? Azir vayne during a meta where tanks are strong and assassins came back up?

RalanrNov 18, 201664 votes

If Vayne was maxing W I think you'd have a point.

She's not. She's maxing Q. She's not building to kill tanks, she's building to burst squishies.

That's a problem.

weeaboomerNov 18, 201627 votes

{quoted}

If Vayne was maxing W I think you'd have a point.

She's not. She's maxing Q. She's not building to kill tanks, she's building to burst squishies.

That's a problem.

It's a problem with items too imo. Her win rate spiked the moment people dropped the bork build. It was pretty shit.

RalanrNov 18, 201612 votes

They're buffing BorK, but I don't think that's going to turn Vayne away from her crit build.

Why dps when you can just burst in 3 hits?

ShaolinToiletNov 18, 20162 votes

Stop feeding?

RalanrNov 18, 20166 votes

Because clearly that's why I'm against Vayne.

ShaolinToiletNov 18, 20162 votes

If vayne kills you in 3 shots she is fed. If you build to survive the burst that she has she will be focused and die. I am not saying she doesn't need a nerf but you are greatly exaggerating her strength.

RalanrNov 18, 20169 votes

I've seen her two shot an Ezreal at equal level.

I was the support.

ShaolinToiletNov 18, 20162 votes

I've seen Sion 1 shot an adc too. I've seen almost everyone 1 shot an enemy. Come on dont tell me you believe this whole circlejerk. It was yasuo just last week.

MelledoneusNov 18, 20165 votes

Actually, no, it was Vayne last week, too.

ShaolinToiletNov 18, 20162 votes

You know what I mean though. Every couple of weeks the boards runs out of things to complain about so they complain about a champion whos a little too strong. Do you think making all these vayne threads does anything other than help boost your ego?

MelledoneusNov 18, 20165 votes

I think they have a point, though. Vayne has always been decently strong as a champion because of her %HP true damage.

Hell, if it were any other champ building this it'd be fine, but she can shred tank too, so it's a big problem. Not to mention she spikes in power much harder than normal ADCs when she hits 50% crit.

Turbanator1337Nov 19, 20163 votes

What's wrong with complaining about champions that are too strong? It's how the community gets Riot to improve the game.

Mr BoopsmoochNov 18, 20165 votes

It's not an "items" problem. it's just item 3087 . This item broke the shit out of her due to the amazing synergy with Q. But the thing is that all adc that get some form of empowered auto will continue having the same synergy with it, I wanna see who boards will complain about next. And I really, really hope the people that were crying about Vayne run into a Draven going Vayne's current path item 3087 item 3031 . With those two items Vayne needs at least five autos to kill you, that fucker deletes you in three.

Brain Errör 404Nov 18, 20161 votes

So I'm not the only one not experiencing this "2 shot" bullocks people are crying about? Yeah, she chunks you for like a 33% of your health with shiv and IE. But people are saying they're getting 1 or 2 shotted... people truly blow things out of proportion it seems. It generally takes me around 5-6 shots to kill people with just shiv and IE also; unless I get them really early in. ;p

kile147Nov 19, 20164 votes

I just played a game where I killed a Twitch in 3 Autos as Vayne. That alone is pretty gross since she's supposed to be a tank shredder, but he even got healed by Sona partway through and I still killed him. She definitely does not take 5-6 shots to kill squishies.

Brain Errör 404Nov 19, 20161 votes

He took a tower shot... not to mention it's 30minutes into the game and you have 3 items. People keep thinking that I'm saying Vayne doesn't need nerfs, but I'm not. Lol. I agree her Q right now is a bit over the top. BUT, it isn't all that far insane from what Vayne usually outputs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPboJ6yEnVI

Before the Vayne buffs and whiles she was still in a crappy spot. People never bitched about getting 3 shotted back then, why all the fuss now?

kile147Nov 19, 20162 votes

You can't get 3 shot by her if she's not in the game.

Brain Errör 404Nov 19, 20163 votes

Ah, so only when she becomes popular we should start complaining about her? Makes sense.

Turbanator1337Nov 19, 20163 votes

Vayne's always been popular. It's just now that she's really oppressive people are complaining.

VisthaNov 18, 201612 votes

Um... Vayne's been building item 3087 since the moment it was added to the game.

Not to mention Shiv's proc after the Marksman Update is weaker than pre-update Shiv until level 14.

hunterspecNov 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Um... Vayne's been building since the moment it was added to the game.

Not to mention Shiv's proc after the Marksman Update is weaker than pre-update Shiv until level 14.

uh since when? I have only since it been built on her recently....

OyddAWqJ5rNov 19, 20162 votes

It really has been since always. Some people would opt for the other variants (namely item 3094 & item 3046 ) but item 3087 was always the overall best due to the waveclear it provided that Vayne sorely lacks.

Noone on the top level side would ever get bork first. It was always Zeal -> Shiv/PD (with maybe a Vampiric Scepter) -> Bork

PermabannedGarenNov 18, 20168 votes

{quoted}

If Vayne was maxing W I think you'd have a point.

She's not. She's maxing Q. She's not building to kill tanks, she's building to burst squishies.

That's a problem.

Vayne has always maxed Q.

RalanrNov 18, 20163 votes

Really? Ok I concede on that point.

Still think she's bursting too much.

PermabannedGarenNov 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Really? Ok I concede on that point.

Still think she's bursting too much.

W provides more DPS possibly, but with her early game being what it is she needs to max Q to get its cooldown low to survive early game. That it's also providing a lot of burst damage incentivizes her to max it even more.