The goal with the Marksmen pass was to give each their own unique role

Rebonack·Dec 23, 2015·108 votes·5,702 views

Graves becomes THE Fighter/Marksmen hybrid (not Mord, regardless of what Riot might insist).

MF becomes THE AoE-Wombo centerpiece.

Quinn becomes THE roaming/split pushing Marksmen

Corki still feels like he's got too much overlap with Ezreal. Not sure what Riot will do with that.

And of course Koggy becomes THE best feeding Marksmen, who dies more often on average and contributes the most to the enemy team's chances of winning.

Living the dream there, Koggy.

Godspeed.

136 Comments

EndlessSorcererDec 23, 201540 votes

At least Kog'maw is making good use of his passive now.

Obviously, he was too strong before and didn't get to use it often enough.

"You are superior in only one respect ... You are better at dying!"

MLDzXnRRRDec 23, 201529 votes

Varus needs new passive. That AS steroid is pathetic.

Draven is worse now. Other ADCs bring more to their teams and aren't dependant on snowballing. Sivir is OK, she was stronger with the 100 AD BT, building crit on her is not so great with that range.

RebonackDec 23, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Varus needs new passive. That AS steroid is pathetic.

Draven is worse now. Other ADCs bring more to their teams and aren't dependant on snowballing. Sivir is OK, she was stronger with the 100 AD BT, building crit on her is not so great with that range.

Not even a new Innate, just an adjustment to the one he has. When he's in 'just took down a champion' mode let him pop 3-stacks of Blight with his auto-attacks. It would fit well with his snowbally Innate.

Draven got hit by the item changes, but his niche is pretty clear. If anything needs to be changed Riot could fiddle with the AD ratio on his spinning axes. Basically the same deal with Sivir, she scales better with AD and armor pen than with crit and attack speed.

Kuroi86Dec 23, 20157 votes

Honestly, with ER, PD and DD I'd figure Draven would pretty well outduel most any champ that can't lock him down.

TheProAndrewDec 24, 20153 votes

Quinn and Teemo can easily duel him

Kuroi86Dec 25, 20152 votes

Quinn, maybe. I don't know if Teemo can output that much damage fast enough before that blind ends.

DemiluniSDec 23, 20153 votes

I agree with you about varus. his passive feels completely out of place.

Sivir is fine as she is, she'll always have her place on the team because of what she brings to the table.

DorkunedAurasDec 24, 201521 votes

Draven's thing is "Well I farmed my passive, got a double kill in lane, now I'm the SCARIEST THING EVER TO EXIST". Draven's niche honestly besides the axe juggling is the fact that he is THE snowball marksman, gets a snowball rolling harder and faster than any other.

gg git diffDec 24, 20152 votes

Draven and Kog are both lategame hypercarries also. This is a fast meta, of course they won’t be as strong as in a slower meta.

UB3R 1337 H4XDec 24, 20159 votes

The difference is that Koggy NEEDS to be late game where as Draven gets the snowball rolling at 6.

originary91Dec 24, 20158 votes

{quoted}

The difference is that Koggy NEEDS to be late game where as Draven gets the snowball rolling at 6.

No, the difference is that Draven can hit late game at 25 minutes, whereas Kog doesn't get it till late. =^)

UB3R 1337 H4XDec 24, 20153 votes

Not even, with proper runes and masteries Draven can use one spinning blade to cut you down for 20-30% of you hp at lv 1 not to mention his passive let's you finish a T3 item while your opponent only has a BF.

SouL1essDec 25, 20155 votes

Kog'maw doesn't have late-game as a niche as an ADC.

Many other ADCs perform better at late game than him...

RebonackDec 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Kog'maw doesn't have late-game as a niche as an ADC.

Many other ADCs perform better at late game than him...

This man speaks the truth.

Kog lost his late game hyper-carry status when Riot removed the scaling from his W (and lowered his win-rate in an attempt to buff him, lulz).

WyrmbladeDec 24, 20153 votes

I think Varus's passive should increase the range of his next auto or something like that instead, it's kind of weird giving the Xerath of Marksmen attack speed.

Cosmic WarperDec 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Varus needs new passive. That AS steroid is pathetic.

Draven is worse now. Other ADCs bring more to their teams and aren't dependant on snowballing. Sivir is OK, she was stronger with the 100 AD BT, building crit on her is not so great with that range.

Sivir feels terrible to play. She's very weak at dueling and doesn't offer good AoE damage to teamfights unless she gets LDR because AD on most marksmen items was nerfed. You only pick her into teams that need easy engage, and even then it's meh.

Ariel the CruelDec 24, 20152 votes

Sivir as always been oriented towards teamfights. Problem right now is itemization. Her AoE scales on raw AD, her ult doesn't scale at all. Raw AD got nerfed across the bored - and she has almost no synergy with Essence reaver. With all the easy crit floating around though, Jinx has taken over as the AoE ADC - especially after her passive was buffed.

RebonackDec 24, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvG2kTuJ,comment-id=000300050000,timestamp=2015-12-24T06:15:44.263+0000)

Sivir as always been oriented towards teamfights. Problem right now is itemization. Her AoE scales on raw AD, her ult doesn't scale at all. Raw AD got nerfed across the bored - and she has almost no synergy with Essence reaver. With all the easy crit floating around though, Jinx has taken over as the AoE ADC - especially after her passive was buffed.

I almost wonder if Riot should just let her bounces crit.

It would be more power in her kit, obviously, but she could use the bump.

ProfDrDeathDec 24, 20152 votes

Sivir recently got a buff on her W's AD ratio - she got a 10% increase in scaling on all ranks (from 50-70% of your AD to 60-80%).

She has mad, MAD synergy with Essence Reaver, actually. Her high mana consumption when spamming and the benefit from CdR for the lower W cooldown, as you want to spam that W on CD in a fight for the AS boost, make it a really good item for her.

Sivir took a heavy hit in the preseason due to one sucker punch of a nerf: She is a rather AA-dependant ADC (only damage tool not dependant on autos is Q), but preseason lowered her base AS to 0.625 from 0.660.

SeductiveGrandpaDec 24, 201515 votes

Corki READY TO FORM ADC FORCE? ACTIVATE ENEMY FLAME! S CONNECTED! YORDLE SNAP TRAPS UP! TAG TEAM IS GO!

GO ADC FORCE! ** Caitlyn I'LL FORM THE LONG RANGED AD C Corki I'LL FORM THE MIXED DAMAGE C Graves I'LL FORM THE TANKY C Quinn I'LL FORM THE ROAMING/SPLIT PUSHING C MissFortune AND I'LL FORM THE WOMBO COMBO C **

KogMaw noises MissFortune No. Kogmaw. We've talked about this, you aren't cool like us. KogMaw item 3070 runs away

ARequestOfDeathDec 24, 20151 votes

KogMaw ends up on the enemy team as a ap carry and ends up one shotting them all with e,q,r

SeductiveGrandpaDec 24, 20152 votes

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1305074/voltron-form-sword-o.gif WE MUST WORK TOGETHER TO TAKE KOG'MAW DOWN! I'LL SPAM MY R! DONT WORRY, I'LL USE MY R ALSO! I'LL E+Q HIM! AND WE'LL FINISH HIM WITH OUR Rs!

XIII VanitasDec 23, 20158 votes

Corki is the magic damage marksmen, designed to win small trades mid game. Ezreal is the flashy guy that jumps around dodging your spells while throwing autos and Qs at you.

IonianDec 23, 20154 votes

and most ap burst champions become irrelevant thank you riot Ahri

TheLastShadow45Dec 23, 20154 votes

Don't worry, mages are next it line. In about 2-3 months.

SolitairDec 23, 20156 votes

Ahri is not an immobil mage. She's a mage/assassin. Sadly, I doubt the changes will really intend to benefit her, as they are supposed to be centered around immobile mages.

peachplumpearDec 24, 20152 votes

They will most likely be doing another pass at all of the AP items in the game to make sure they give different strengths, rather than how it is now with Deathcap being necessary on anyone with good AP scaling and Zhonya's being the only defensive item they need.

Hayaishi2Dec 23, 20154 votes

Marksman rework did jackshit. It only pushed lucian and mf into popularity along with the ones that were dominating before (jinx kalista tristana vayne) everybody else pretty much sucks

RebonackDec 23, 201528 votes

{quoted}

Marksman rework did jackshit. It only pushed lucian and mf into popularity along with the ones that were dominating before (jinx kalista tristana vayne) everybody else pretty much sucks

Disagree there.

Quinn is pretty great now. Previously she was the only Marksmen picked less than Kog'Maw. The remake also helped to make a real difference between Graves and Lucian.

At this point Ezreal and Corki are the only two who feel like they overlap too much (mobile poke-focused ADC. Corki packs a little more AoE, but that's basically it). No idea how Riot would address that, though, short of giving Corki a totally new Ult. I guess they could make it so Ez' Essence Flux applied to him automatically. That would give him a bit more strength in straight auto-attacking.

Hayaishi2Dec 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Disagree there.

Quinn is pretty great now. Previously she was the only Marksmen picked less than Kog'Maw. The remake also helped to make a real difference between Graves and Lucian.

At this point Ezreal and Corki are the only two who feel like they overlap too much (mobile poke-focused ADC. Corki packs a little more AoE, but that's basically it). No idea how Riot would address that, though, short of giving Corki a totally new Ult. I guess they could make it so Ez' Essence Flux applied to him automatically. That would give him a bit more strength in straight auto-attacking.

Yes Quinn is great, i forgot about her because she isn't played.

Oh a difference between Graves and Lucian, we didn't need that. All they did was make Graves impossible to use. (He is fun but you can clearly see he is not strong enough)

What about Varus, Twitch, Ashe, Sivir, Ezreal? Even other reworked carries like Corki aren't played. Again, if after the rework all we see is the same marksmen going bot lane every game with just two new marksmen(because quinn doesnt go bot) then the rework failed.

RebonackDec 23, 201513 votes

{quoted}

Yes Quinn is great, i forgot about her because she isn't played.

Oh a difference between Graves and Lucian, we didn't need that. All they did was make Graves impossible to use. (He is fun but you can clearly see he is not strong enough)

What about Varus, Twitch, Ashe, Sivir, Ezreal? Even other reworked carries like Corki aren't played. Again, if after the rework all we see is the same marksmen going bot lane every game with just two new marksmen(because quinn doesnt go bot) then the rework failed.

Quinn gets played top, ADC, and jungle. And she does pretty well in all of them. Combined play rate is about 7%, which honestly isn't terrible for a champion with such a well defined niche. That puts her right under Kalista in how often she gets picked.

Twitch is doing well, he's just niche. Same with Varus and Ashe. None of them are generalist champions and so they don't see as high of a pick rate. Graves is doing solidly in the Elo that Riot typically balances for and he's doing amazing in high level games. Sivir got hit pretty hard by the itemization changes and could use some tweaks. Ez, as said, needs something to help further distinguish him from Corki.

The most played ADCs right now, with the exception of MF, are all champions that have good general strengths and fit into most any team composition. And MF only needs one strong lockdown Ult paired with her to work.

Hayaishi2Dec 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Quinn gets played top, ADC, and jungle. And she does pretty well in all of them. Combined play rate is about 7%, which honestly isn't terrible for a champion with such a well defined niche. That puts her right under Kalista in how often she gets picked.

Twitch is doing well, he's just niche. Same with Varus and Ashe. None of them are generalist champions and so they don't see as high of a pick rate. Graves is doing solidly in the Elo that Riot typically balances for and he's doing amazing in high level games. Sivir got hit pretty hard by the itemization changes and could use some tweaks. Ez, as said, needs something to help further distinguish him from Corki.

The most played ADCs right now, with the exception of MF, are all champions that have good general strengths and fit into most any team composition. And MF only needs one strong lockdown Ult paired with her to work.

No lol.

Varus and Ashe aren't good, Neither is Twitch, they can work because soloqueue is soloqueue. Graves isn't bad, simply not good enough. Ez and Corki being the "same" is irrelevant, Corki isn't played much either.

Again, just because champions have niche doesn't make them good. The rework didn't do anything because the same ADCs are still dominating, it's just that now we can finally play Lucian and MF to compete. Every other ADC falls short compared to Tristana, Kalista, Vayne, and Jinx who have been dominating since before the rework, you can look at any tier list, can ask pros in streams.

In fact Lucian is only good because how strong Essence Reaver is on him, literally only Lucian can use Essence reaver to it's full potential. Other casters can't.

I can't be the only one sick of Tristana, Jinx and Vayne, if the point of the rework wasn't changing that the Riot has no ambition.

RebonackDec 23, 201511 votes

{quoted}

No lol.

And these champs are being picked a lot because they're good at all stages of the game and bring a lot to the table. They're generalists.

If, for example, Riot buffed Kog'Maw to the point that he's as widely attractive of a pick as Lucian in Solo his damage would have to be absurdly overwhelming.

Hayaishi2Dec 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And these champs are being picked a lot because they're good at all stages of the game and bring a lot to the table. They're generalists.

If, for example, Riot buffed Kog'Maw to the point that he's as widely attractive of a pick as Lucian in Solo his damage would have to be absurdly overwhelming.

And that's exactly the problem, not enough nerfs.

We didn't need a marksman "rework", we needed to gut Tristana (who has been dominating since before her OWN rework) Vayne and everybody else who has been dominating for months.

Why play a champion with a niche when other champions do the same thing worse and everything else better?

RebonackDec 23, 201515 votes

{quoted}

And that's exactly the problem, not enough nerfs.

We didn't need a marksman "rework", we needed to gut Tristana (who has been dominating since before her OWN rework) Vayne and everybody else who has been dominating for months.

Why play a champion with a niche when other champions do the same thing worse and everything else better?

This is an inherent problem with generalist champions (see, Lee Sin, ect).

If you just start stripping out power then pretty quickly you'll get a champion that's mediocre at everything. That's sorta the problem that Jayce has dealt with for a while now. The ADCs that are commonly picked are picked because the things they do well are things that are very valuable.

ADCs that don't get picked (but still have solid win rates) are champions that do a very specific thing well. They're niche picks.

And ADCs that don't get picked and have awful win rates are Riot's fuck-ups.

Making the generalists bad won't necessarily make niche picks more popular, it'll just make the generalists lose more often.

DemiluniSDec 23, 20153 votes

except corki does a buttload of magic damage

hopeful4Dec 23, 20153 votes

At this point Ezreal and Corki are the only two who feel like they overlap too much (mobile poke-focused ADC. Corki packs a little more AoE, but that's basically it).

Around 75% of new Corkis damage is magic. Thats his identity. You pick him if you think that your comp lacks magic damage, something you cant do with other ADCs

Also you can make huge plays with the package that you cant do with Ezreal, although it is rather high risk.

It Hertz When IPDec 23, 20152 votes

Ezreal can fire off a global ult every 40-ish seconds by utilizing his Q... He does have that going for him.

GreenLoreDec 24, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Graves becomes THE Fighter/Marksmen hybrid (not Mord, regardless of what Riot might insist).

Just because Mordekaiser takes the bottom role doesn't mean he is supposed to be a marksman/fighter hybrid. He is simply supposed to be an alternative to marksmen,that you can use if you have marksmen in other lanes(like kindred in the jungle,or an adc who goes mid or top)

ltmetalDec 24, 20153 votes

I get the feeling that ADC Kog'Maw was changed from a late game champion to a mid game champion. Once he gets item 3153 item 3124 item 3085 he doesn't get any stronger, no matter what he builds (at least from what I've seen). Rito please, buff Kog'Maw.

SingadyDec 24, 20156 votes

I saw a sated kogmaw jungle today

That is the stuff of nightmares.

Yuumi or LoseDec 24, 20153 votes

I've been running Kog'Maw since the rework and I have a bit of success depending on what team comp I get (Normals) and it's true. He doesn't have the late game that people think he has. He only has one major spike and it's Rageblade. Any other items add spice but when late game hits, Kog doesn't shred as much as he use to. Especially now since Riot changed the w ratio. The only way Kog can actually do anything late game in terms of damage is building AD Kog. Blade of The Ruined King and building armor pen. The problem with that is that it takes forever for the spike to kick in compared to the On-Hit build with Rageblade.

Ace Access Dec 24, 20152 votes

so what about this Twitch smelly rat ? whats his identity ? spamming DoT via AA and throwing jars of green slime ?

TurquoiseYoshiDec 24, 20156 votes

Being an assassin. His passive is the thing out of place tbh. It's trying to be Talon, but it just isn't.

ShatteredSkysDec 24, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ace Access ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvG2kTuJ,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-12-24T03:02:17.659+0000)

so what about this smelly rat ? whats his identity ? spamming DoT via AA and throwing jars of green slime ?

AOE ADC, his ult and hurricane is absolutely ridiculous. Q attack speed plus yommus and ult and hurricane is absolutely devastating.

junglerboy16Dec 25, 20152 votes

Ashe is THE "Stand and fight me" carry. Caitlyn is THE "Sniper" carry. Kalista is THE "F#$% why do you exist?!?" carry. Corki is THE "You can't itemize against me" carry. Tristana is THE "Tower slayer" carry. Vayne is THE "What tank?" carry. Draven is THE "Snowball" carry. Lucian is THE "Gunslinger" carry. Twitch is THE "Gank your whole team" carry. Jinx is THE "Cleanup crew" carry. Varus is THE "Poke>disengage" carry. Sivir is THE "Run at your face" carry. KogMaw is (supposed to be) THE "Artillery cannon" carry. Ezreal is THE "I abuse Sheen" carry.

RebonackDec 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

is THE "Stand and fight me" carry. is THE "Sniper" carry. is THE "F#$% why do you exist?!?" carry. is THE "You can't itemize against me" carry. is THE "Tower slayer" carry. is THE "What tank?" carry. is THE "Snowball" carry. is THE "Gunslinger" carry. is THE "Gank your whole team" carry. is THE "Cleanup crew" carry. is THE "Poke>disengage" carry. is THE "Run at your face" carry. is (supposed to be) THE "Artillery cannon" carry. is THE "I abuse Sheen" carry.

Urgot is THE potato carry.

Kuroi86Dec 23, 20151 votes

And of course Koggy becomes THE best feeding Marksmen, who dies more often on average and contributes the most to the enemy team's chances of winning.

He really doesn't need much, just a proper way to kite while not losing out too much on his AS buff.

RebonackDec 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

He really doesn't need much, just a proper way to kite while not losing out too much on his AS buff.

It's really fiddly.

Riot wants one of Koggy's weaknesses to be the lack of ability to kite without losing a ton of damage. If his W didn't do anything with his attack speed, but rather made it so his attacks apply OnHit effects twice, it would probably be too powerful.

I doubt Riot is going to give Kog the ability to be more mobile while doing his thing. They're trying to move away from that. What they need to do is to make it so Koggy's sustained damage is actually sustained rather than giving it more downtime than uptime. That, combined with less punishing mana costs, would cover two of the weaknesses that are most crippling his ability to succeed on the Rift.

ProfDrDeathDec 24, 20153 votes

What if Kog'Maw's W worked somewhat like Anivia's ult? Possibly, a slight mana cost for activation, then a fixed (or even ramping?) cost per shot, and a slight CD after deactivation? With deactivation being either cause by Kog's player turning W off or Kog getting hard-CC'd?

Like, 10 + a ramping 1 per shot (meaning, first shot 1, second 2, third 3, fourth 4...you get the picture).