Do Us Support Shaco's A Favor Riot

63536895_DEL·Dec 24, 2015·69 votes·3,142 views

Let our boxes proc Tribute from the Frost Queen items.

EDIT: When you check the boards and see you have 30 messages and your post has 4 pages of comments, its a nice feeling :3 [slayer-jinx-catface]

104 Comments

Slamurai JackDec 25, 201511 votes

Let's not encourage Shaco support. Bot lane is cancerous enough already with the like of Tahm and Bard.

alfavhunterDec 25, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=crKj2d6t,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-12-25T04:04:27.496+0000)

Let's not encourage Shaco support. Bot lane is cancerous enough already with the like of Tahm and Bard.

Ap shaco support trades early game power for trap danger

I beat a fed zed by kiting him to it my trap field, and it was halariouse

RyzeReworkDec 25, 20152 votes

Lol o 2v1 akali and pantheon top as ap shaco just danced around my boxes as they died. But usally I level 1 fill the brush with boxes and wait for everyone to walk into them it's hilarious and u normal get first blood

Shac NorrisDec 25, 201515 votes

It's funny because i can't downvote you more than once

Slamurai JackDec 25, 20156 votes

It's funny you actually want Shaco support to be a thing. It's bad enough we have to deal with that shit from the jungle.

Shac NorrisDec 25, 201517 votes

It's funny because Shaco support already is a thing, and you're just too ignorant to even try something before saying it's shit.

Typical boards user

Slamurai JackDec 25, 20158 votes

Are you stupid? I never said anything about how good it is. I said it's cancerous, which it is. I fucking hate seeing it because it's 100% cheese and he will either dominate or be worthless depending entirely on whether or not your bot lane knows how to deal with that cheese.

Pierce The VealDec 25, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=crKj2d6t,comment-id=00060002000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-25T04:31:25.067+0000)

Are you stupid? I never said anything about how good it is. I said it's cancerous, which it is. I fucking hate seeing it because it's 100% cheese and he will either dominate or be worthless depending entirely on whether or not your bot lane knows how to deal with that cheese.

He really won't be useless, buuuuut, if that's what let's you sleep at night, so be it.

Lazypeon100Dec 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

He really won't be useless, buuuuut, if that's what let's you sleep at night, so be it.

He's right in that the support shaco is rather useless if they don't snowball.

That said, his reasoning is absurd. Items and spell effects should be consistent across champions. Whether support shaco is "cancerous" or not is irrelevant.

Pierce The VealDec 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

He's right in that the support shaco is rather useless if they don't snowball.

That said, his reasoning is absurd. Items and spell effects should be consistent across champions. Whether support shaco is "cancerous" or not is irrelevant.

Although I do think he's not utterly useless, I do agree that he should be treated the same as other champions. That Heimer and Zyra can proc spellthief with pets while he can't is rather ludicrous.

V The Support VDec 26, 20151 votes

Heimer and Zyra pets don't Fear as well.

Pierce The VealDec 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=V The Support V,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=crKj2d6t,comment-id=000600020000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T00:33:38.114+0000)

Heimer and Zyra pets don't Fear as well.

Heimer's shoots a laser.

All three auto attack dealing magic damage.

So what if he has a fear on it?

Shrek LuigiDec 26, 20151 votes

"So what if shaco's boxes can hard-cc people out of invisibility? That's basically the same as shooting a skill shot laser!"

Pierce The VealDec 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stovetop Chemist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=crKj2d6t,comment-id=00060002000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T22:34:11.802+0000)

"So what if shaco's boxes can hard-cc people out of invisibility? That's basically the same as shooting a skill shot laser!"

I feel like you're arguing a moot point. The boxes also last much shorter than the turrets and plants. And they die automatically after they activate and the enemies leave.

In short, the confirmation bias is strong in you.

Shrek LuigiDec 26, 20151 votes

If it 'dominates' then it's at least situationally a viable pick. I'm skeptical of shaco support too, but telling shaco players how not to play a champion they are potentially better at than you is childish.

Occams RaiserDec 25, 20151 votes

Its only a thing in the sense that someone has done it. It doesn't mean it is actual a thing besides something to do in normals. I do not see shaco support in ranked games that I watch. And most people know better than to do this if they want to win. I have seen and I think it is funny to watch Our jungle and adc shut down an ADC by lvl 6 cause he had no escape. That is what it means to not be a thing. I hope your adc Is Trist so can supply their own peel. everyone else is dead.

Shac NorrisDec 26, 20151 votes

Only people who master AP Shaco and has a good idea of which matchups he can go against/which adc he can play with can take him bot lane as a support and succeed (unless you're playing against retarded enemies).

You talk about ''not having an escape'' yet Shaco has plenty, you put boxes in bushes/near walls where minions won't activate them and you've got yourself the perfect escape (especially if you max boxes first). Also, i hear you talking about level 6, good thing i have a clone which can block any skillshot in the game, including those pesky jungle Amumu that rely on a skillshot to engage.

The more i read your post, the more i know that you never even tried it, yet you're talking about it as if you had mained it for a year, which you clearly havn't. The only thing your ADC absolutly needs is a form of dash/blink to be viable with you Since you'll mostly be carrying Exhaust + Ignite (TP + Ignite if they have a pushing comp)

I do not see shaco support in ranked games that I watch

That's because the current ranked queue is filled with people playing freelo easy champs like thresh or blitz. Also, Shaco support is a whole new support role and it takes time to truly master it and your team has to adapt to YOUR playstyle, and seeing how independantly soloQ players play, you can't win everygames in 5 seconds by landing a grab on someone, that's why people don't play it.

Occams RaiserDec 26, 20151 votes

I meant the adc would have no escape. You are right, I have never tried Shaco Support. I have laned against it and found it easy. I just stay out the bushes. Maybe a "skilled" shaco would do better. Have you ever heard of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?

EX: if me and my adc beat shaco and X adc, Shaco wasn't skilled. If they win, It must be because THAT Shaco was a skilled... Shaco is a viable support.

Only a True SHACO player can be evaluated when measuring viability.

Shac NorrisDec 26, 20152 votes

You basically have to tell your ADC how to play everygame and ping every extra minions that may compromise your boxes's safety.

If some adc plays safe under tower, you won't be able to do anything, you won't be able to poke, put boxes or anything until a jungler comes to gank you.

Also i did mention matchups, if you play with an adc with no cc that likes to go all in, he won't be able to do it as often, yet if you play with an adc with cc that plays passively, it's wasted kill potential. So many people don't even know/understand this simple thing. If you play with an adc with CC, but the enemies are Caitlynn and Thresh, you won't be able to engage no matter what you do and what ADC you have and will require a junler to get a kill.

If your adc doesn't understand what it means to have a Shaco support and just all ins enemies all the time (most of the time these are the most toxic kind of players judging from my experience), not taking your mana in consideration (most of the time that's what happens(Q costs 90 mana)), and let enemy minions push the wave, then we're not getting any kills unless they try to tower dive.

So yeah, playing Shaco requires alot of concentration, good judgement and an ADC that understands how you play in lane. I've won countless lanes, beaten countless comps from Ashe to fucking Rengar

if me and my adc beat shaco and X adc, Shaco wasn't skilled. If they win, It must be because THAT Shaco was a skilled... Shaco is a viable support.

It IS a viable support, it's just not your typical freelo pick Thresh everygame no matter that matchup, there are champs that you can and cannot lane against and ADC's that you can and can not lane with, i thought you'd understand that by now.

Occams RaiserDec 26, 20152 votes

Damn you were doing so well but you had to go and get all INTERNET ASSHOLE on me in that last sentence. You almost made it. But yeah I get it.

Shac NorrisDec 26, 20151 votes

You ignored every argument i gave you so far to write this reply, since you know that you don't have anything else to say against Shaco support.

Occams RaiserDec 26, 20151 votes

You made A point. It is all subjective in the end. The only thing that breaks a tie is what do highly skilled players do. They aren't doing it so I don't know what you definition if viable is.

Tae Kwon Do works on fools and drunks but it can't win the battle when you take to people that know how to fight.

If you mean He is good against people just because you caught them by surprise, I would never say that the element of surprise is worthless. But if you are saying skilled people with 1000 games are thrown by this I would say... doubtful outside of a small variance that is basically anecdotal evidence.

Shac NorrisDec 28, 20151 votes

He is good against people just because you caught them by surprise

The only thing that could help them is knowledge.

Knowing/remembering where i place my boxes and having alot of wards placed is literally the only thing they can do. also the red trinket.

Anyway i'm done talking with you, you just threw the ''you can't beat anyone with experience'' card, just showing how much of an imbecile you are.

DrProfVibeCheckDec 25, 20157 votes

I wouldn't aquate Bard with "Cancerous". Sure, a good one can be hell to play against, but thats true for most all champions.

charcharmunroDec 25, 20158 votes

Bard is basically the hardest champion to be toxic with. You can troll with him, sure, but it's very difficult to actually be toxic.

Aeolian MelodiesDec 24, 20159 votes

They don't? That's bull, Zyra's plants do.

BiffoloDec 25, 20157 votes

Do everyone else a favor people, don't play shaco support.

alfavhunterDec 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Do everyone else a favor people, don't play shaco support.

As a support main it works if your lane ally knows how to use it, I've one vs thresh supports and got him to jump into a box I put a box down as he is feared and he gets shredded by another fear and 2 boxes and my E hitting him while my adc just AAs 2 s and backs off and we win the trade hands down

Shaco support works, but it takes pre planning and communication

He also offers Gank protection when I set boxes up in spots correctly

I run 10/mana regen runes and the mana regen mastery on him so I can spam boxes and make it a danger just to engage or you get feared hit and back off

Shaco support obviously won't do well vs a pole or healing comp, but he is fantastical vs all in comps when played right

BiffoloDec 25, 20152 votes

So you play him against all in comps. Cool, why not just pick janna who is better for countering hard engage?

Aeolian MelodiesDec 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So you play him against all in comps. Cool, why not just pick janna who is better for countering hard engage?

I don't think OP wants a debate on whether or not support Shaco is relevant (which, as a support main, I've never faced one that I didn't beat), he's saying there's no reason his boxes don't proc Tribute and he's correct since Zyra's plants and Heimer's turrets do.

BiffoloDec 25, 20152 votes

I mean, it's not that big of a deal, because if you didn't play a champ that doesn't belong in that role anyways you wouldn't have the problem. Twitch's poison doesn't proc it either (found out the hard way on aram last night), but no one complains about that because you should never have twitch support.

alfavhunterDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So you play him against all in comps. Cool, why not just pick janna who is better for countering hard engage?

Because he is able to split push later and force people to stop him, Janna has no damage herself, shaco can build ap CDR and deal damage

Late game I had 3 items (not counting sight stone or boots) and beat the zed they sent to stop me from split pushing , he died and started raging about how op shaco is

That is the joy of shaco support, making the enemy rage at you for annoying then and winning because of pre planning with boxes

He also has more late game carry potential than Janna

Mind you I play Janna as well, but it's a nice change of pace that is viable, just not "meta"

BiffoloDec 25, 20152 votes

It's not viable against competent people is the thing. Like, waiting for 3 items as a support before you are relevant is absurd. Your job is to enable a carry, not carry yourself. It is worse than playing shaco in another role, it's a waste of a champions potential, and as such is inefficient, and as such there are better choices.

alfavhunterDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's not viable against competent people is the thing. Like, waiting for 3 items as a support before you are relevant is absurd. Your job is to enable a carry, not carry yourself. It is worse than playing shaco in another role, it's a waste of a champions potential, and as such is inefficient, and as such there are better choices.

That 3 plus items was a late game example of how i, as support shaco was able to beat a full build zed 1v1

In lane and and after support ap shaco is a utility tool, fears and slows, even using boxes to block hooks or open free trade openings for your adc and your E, they can't attack back when feared every time they walk to a box I E and back off dealing free damage, my adc can also AA and back off and if they engage in use traps can be used to back off and win the trade due to the fear

I've saved my adc plenty of times from hooks from quick reaction boxes, it's viable but requires strategy and coordination to pull off well

BiffoloDec 25, 20152 votes

And a full build ap blitz can do the same thing, but that isn't what makes a support good.

alfavhunterDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And a full build ap blitz can do the same thing, but that isn't what makes a support good.

CC and utility makes a support good, use the boxes right and you can bring more "burst" CC than any other champion, the thing about ap shaco for how I play him is I rush CDR and mana regen, this lets me have boxes everywhere and if they chase us they go into more boxes that can lead to 3+ seconds of CC due to fear then drop another box on them as they get feared for a second fear, if they remove that aspect of stacking fear from shaco boxes then yes he will be an invisible support but his box fear brings a lot of control of you pre plan thier use

It's like playing chess, think ahead of what they will do

It has its weaknesses from the anti trap trinket sure, but shaco also brings a slow and his clone explosion, he can also bring the ghost slows and other active item effects

I typically go with ghosts and banner of command for map pressure utility and vision, and I have traps for our/my escape set up along with wards

Shaco is a champion you can play as a tactician and I find that fun, at the same time I contribute to my team late game by being a split push danger and them being unable to hard engage on my team due to 3-7 traps depending on the time I have to prepare (45% CDR is great on support shaco)

BiffoloDec 26, 20151 votes

Thresh has more burst cc than him, seeing as flay is an instant disengage into a practically guaranteed hook, if not the box. No one is going to get chain cced by your boxes if they have an iq of higher than 3, there will be plenty of red trinkets. His slow is pretty iffy, and ghost slow is not exclusive to him so that doesn't really count. Other champs can do better than him in support by a long shot, and there is no reason to play him. He's better in the jungle, so it's a waste of kit potential to use him as a support.

BhagswagDec 26, 20151 votes

And if I want to play Shaco support for fun?

(I'm a level 5 mastery Shaco in Jungle).

BiffoloDec 26, 20151 votes

So long as you don't do it in ranked, you won't ever be in a game with me so idc, because I'll dodge every single one or not let you in my teambuilder game if you choose to go that route. Don't expect riot to help it though, because it's not something you should be playing anyways.

BhagswagDec 27, 20151 votes

I don't rank.
I'm glad you won't be anywhere near my game.
I hope you dodge enough to permaban yourself. :)
What does Riot have to do with anything?
Don't tell anyone what they should be playing. It's a video game.

BiffoloDec 27, 20151 votes

Thank christ
the feeling is mutual
I only dodge with troll picks or when shit hits the fan in champ select, so it's nowhere near often enough for that
Riot is the ones balancing the game, so don't expect them to arbitrarily help out something that shouldn't exist to begin with
Ranked is a competition, the winning matters more than the fun there.

BhagswagDec 29, 20151 votes

Don't tell anyone what they should be playing; it's a video game. Maybe repeating it will help.

BiffoloDec 29, 20151 votes

That mentality is fine for normals, not ranked.

alfavhunterDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thresh has more burst cc than him, seeing as flay is an instant disengage into a practically guaranteed hook, if not the box. No one is going to get chain cced by your boxes if they have an iq of higher than 3, there will be plenty of red trinkets. His slow is pretty iffy, and ghost slow is not exclusive to him so that doesn't really count. Other champs can do better than him in support by a long shot, and there is no reason to play him. He's better in the jungle, so it's a waste of kit potential to use him as a support.

This isn't really an arguement of if there is a better option and if you use the boxes right he has more burst CC hard than thresh and its all aoe

When they run into a box you drop a box on them instantly resulting in a second fear if they keep chasing you kite them I to a 3rd box

This does mean needing an adc that knows how to use boxes for free trading, graves is a great adc to have with shaco because he bursts then backs off, which is the playstyle shaco support is good with because the fear gives free damage openings

As support shaco the only ability I do not spam is Q as that is exspensive so I stay near box safety as well with my adc I never go all in unless they are going to die for sure

Shaco support offers zone control, CC, slow, and mind games which become great tools for annoying the hell out of the enemy

BiffoloDec 26, 20151 votes

Hey uh, the boxes have a 2 second arm time. It takes until rank 4 for the flee duration to hit 1 second, and it has a range of 425. If you are frame perfect and standing next to them to begin with, you can't chain fear unless they turn around. My point still stands in this case that if they aren't autistic it won't work on them.

alfavhunterDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hey uh, the boxes have a 2 second arm time. It takes until rank 4 for the flee duration to hit 1 second, and it has a range of 425. If you are frame perfect and standing next to them to begin with, you can't chain fear unless they turn around. My point still stands in this case that if they aren't autistic it won't work on them.

With proper box placement it's not hard to chain traps if they run into one when your W isn't on CD, sure there will be half a second they aren't CCed bout you can also place a box as they are about to run into another box, resulting in less time for them to react to the second fear, and unless thier dash is instant (flash or EZ) they will still get hit by second box fear and eat more damage from boxes

The Yetii RiderDec 25, 20152 votes

I think Shaco's boxes are coded as their own entity, and specifically not as Shaco dealing the damage, for the sole purpose of stopping him from gaining spell vamp off of them. That's why they don't proc Tribute, because Shaco isn't the one doing the damage.

That said, it should be changed.

Shac NorrisDec 25, 20156 votes

He procs Rylais and spellvamp on his boxes.

Aeolian MelodiesDec 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I think Shaco's boxes are coded as their own entity, and specifically not as Shaco dealing the damage, for the sole purpose of stopping him from gaining spell vamp off of them. That's why they don't proc Tribute, because Shaco isn't the one doing the damage.

That said, it should be changed.

Heimerdinger Zyra