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Is anyone else sick of losing 1 teamfight at 30 minutes and losing the entire game?

63536895_DEL··215 votes·8,948 views

Both teams group for a teamfight at 30 minutes, one team gets aced or only 1 person survives and the other team has 2 or 3 members that barely survived and then they push from an inner turret all the way into your nexus and win the game.

When it happens to you, at first you think they'll just take some turrets maybe an inhibitor, maybe dragon if its up, and then you realize they took 2 turrets an inhibitor and are now working on your nexus turrets and look to see that there is still 15+ seconds on all death timers, and you just think to yourself, fuck really, we lost just like that.

When you do it to an enemy, you win and get the lp, and feel like you got a participation ribbon instead of a first place trophy. Its not like I want every game to be a 50+ minutes, its not even that I have a problem with 30 minute games, its the way that they're being won thats the problem. If there was already an inhibitor down and a team lost a teamfight and lost I could accept that, but teams are losing one teamfight and losing games when their inner turrets are still up at 30 minutes, its not fun.

I get that riot wants to prevent stall comps, but insanely long death timers, and wet paper towers that fire wet paper noodles aren't the way to do it imo. I've seen some others on the boards point this out, and I want to bring it up to. If anything longer death timers will encourage stall comps, because they prevent players from making aggressive plays out of fear of dying and losing the game, no aggressive plays means the game will be stalled.

On another note, minion block is still god awful. Riot, can you put a gate in the minions so I can actually go through them unhindered. Everytime I walk close to a group of more than 1 minion its like a walked into one of Cait's traps.

105 Comments

Critmaster Garen51 votes

i feel like riots attempts to shorten the game times artificially just causes the opposite effect of making the game more fast paced.

people dont take any sort of risk anymore, in fear of one mistake losing the game. theyre just playing passive and waiting for a fight theyre guaranteed to win, or they let an early advantag just snowball in their favour by itself.

game times have gone down by 3 minutes on average, but the game pacing just feels terrible.

games are just stressful and boring with everyone playing passive, and they suddlenly end at 20 to 30 minutes as soon as one guy on your team makes a mistake.

iainB8523 votes

I haven't watched much LCS this season purely because of that.

Every time I tune in they are such low score, safe, farming games with only one pivotal moment of action. It's soooooooooo boring.

Akesgeroth14 votes

Exactly. Pro LoL seems to be a game of "avoid the enemy team".

High51 votes

People say this all the time for different reasons. Bad players stall the game. Look at TSM last split (bad) and IMT this split (good). Playing risk adverse is a team issue, not a game issue.

PoisonedAir2 votes

Some of the games were always farm fest. But have you seen like any game played by Immortals? Especially IMT vs C9 last week? You have to know what matches to watch.

Your third mom2 votes

They tried to shorten games but they chose wrong way to do it

Eternal Zen6 votes

And now with the new champion select and the predictable dodges in ranked you spend just about as much time searching for a game as you do actually playing one... Only to have what OP has observed happened.

I've been pretty stubborn about League for 4 years playing even in scheisse metas determined to find the fun in it no matter what. I have to admit this season is proving to be my most difficult challenge yet. I've started playing Diablo 3 over this... Diablo 3... think about that. It's not even out of bitter passive aggressive anger, I just genuinely rarely enjoy playing league this season. Shrug* I don't know what to tell you Riot. Un-ruin your game please, thank you.

High51 votes

The game will not adapt to you. You must adapt to it. Complaining on the forms will not change this.

Eternal Zen1 votes

Yes.. this is very true I'm not sure why you felt the need to point it out? I clearly stated my adaptation practices.. which was to play another game. I must of struck some nerve?

rescued3 votes

Just like in the LCS, sometimes first blood doesn't come till the 20 minute mark.

ValyrianBlade28 votes

Yea, I remember in season 5 how Riot went on and on about wanting to balance the game in such a way that the team which made consistently better choices throughout the game would eventually win.

Now we have this garbage where your team can make better choices for the entire first 35 minutes and be up 9 towers to 0, up 3 or 4 dragons to 0, up 1 Baron to 0, and then get aced in 1 bad fight and lose the entire game as the enemy team takes 5 towers and an inhibitor through mid lane in to the nexus.

Maybe that would be okay if it was a 5 for 0 fight. Clearly you've done something REALLY wrong. This happens in 5 for 2/3s though (or even 4/3 for 1/2. If two/three people survive they shouldn't be taking everything from an outer turret to the nexus...

Early game advantages are merely that, advantages to make you more likely to win that late game fight. They don't give you any cushion should you lose that fight. The entire game still comes down to who wins the late fight. Turrets need to be weaker defensively early, and much stronger offensively and defensively throughout the game. I understand that you need to defend turrets late game (they no longer defend you), but (at least the inhibitor and later turrets) should still be at least as strong as an extra champion fighting with your team. I strongly feel that the nexus turrets should be very difficult to take down without a super minion present (idea: give nexus turrets huge bonus offensive stats unless a super minion is within range, since they'd have to wait at least until the first minion wave after killing your inhibitor to get to your nexus in order to destroy the turrets, would prevent the instant-loss when you still had everything up. If no super minions are present the nexus turrets should do AOE damage to minions thereby almost instantly clearing any minion wave [perhaps through a delay on getting this damage back after a super minion dies]).

Spoofghoul1 votes

wait no halt stop

you want early game to matter more, like everyone plays passive because 1 wrong move snowballs the entire game out of controll because towers are weak.

then towers need to be much stronger, well the inhib/nexus towers, this helps turtling lategame teams mkay. This would make more teams doing shitty early turtle for that 1 lategame fight.

Darkpsycho2 votes

But a lot of the times the bad choices come from the cockiness of the ahead team. Imo, that's karma. I've had abunch of games lost when we were ahead because my team got cocky and fought bad fights leading to an easy comeback. It seems a lot of people still ignore how easy it is to come back from a game via bounties and the long death timers. I'm pretty okay with the change Rito made because I feel it's made it easier to come back from behind.

Dehorn17 votes

my arams last longer than normals now.

Knoyle4 votes

I might be mistaken but aren't ARAM's death timers also shorter?

AninLegions7773 votes

They are

shabingi2 votes

You gain gold and XP faster, which is what riot should have done to speed up SR if they wanted faster games. Instead now you have faster games, but there is not really a late game.

Iqqi9 votes

Riot's entire goal was to try to shorten the overall length of games. They finally realized that for players to actually get anywhere in ranked you would have to play a lot of games and when the average length of match is 40 ish min long you had a problem. When it takes people almost an hour in total from queue to finish to complete a match you have a problem.

So Riot's "genius" (sarcasm) solution to reduce the length of games was to simply greatly increase death timers after a certain point. Meaning the first team to lose a "late game" is almost guaranteed to lose the game before they re spawn.

If Riot really wanted to actually speed up the game and reduce the duration of matches they should of increased experience gains and slightly increase gold generation from minions (continues to scale) and then remove any damage reductions on turrets completely to maintain the balance of people who pick early spike champions. Then I would decrease the spawn timer on dragon so he pops more frequently. Lastly I would remove that terrible debuff Baron has which damage champions around him. I dont know why it was put in the game to begin with. Obviously another terrible solution to a problem they had. It still doesn't remove the possibility to solo baron and if their intent with the debuff was to set a higher champion scale level before you can kill him, then they should of increased the initial spawn timer instead of adding in a terrible mechanic.

It is hilarious when you know Riot's game designers make over 6 digits with stock bonuses and this is the quality of their work. "lets increase the re-spawn timer so games dont last forever"

Deus Imperator6 votes

Its soul crushing when your team has been doing well all the game, lose a late teamfight, and lose the match without any chance to recover

Melledoneus4 votes

Yes. Yes, we are. Now are my turrets back from the shop? These styrofoam replicas aren't doing so well.

BRBGTGBOWFLEX4 votes

There's so many things that are messed up in terms of pacing.

Early kills are way too big of an advantage. BF swords and NLR were priced at 1550-1600 because that kept someone from getting a single kill and then destroying their lane opponent all game. Now at 1250/1300 it's totally possible to get a BF sword and fuck over your opponent.

Death timers get ridiculous to the point where they reward lack of coordination. Basically, if you weren't intelligent about wave control and positioning before, you might not get an objective. Now it's almost certain. Maybe that is a good thing, but it doesn't really feel like one.

WadeWilson13374 votes

Or when you die at the 32 minute point you can take a piss, refill your water, and microwave a hotpocket and be back in time to buy your items

Bolwinkel3 votes

I'm tired of seeing 3 adc's in one game

Kal Vas Flam2 votes

Death timers need to be normalized a bit. A little longer early game but a little shorter late game compared to where they are now. Honestly 35 or so seconds should be the max with 20 or so seconds the minimum. It would make early victories matter more and late defeats hurt less.

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

Really? It changes the pace in Pro games, where they tend to play more safe anyway. But in my games, i find that people are more willing to all-in and push lanes super aggressively in hopes of getting a kill or two for that 5-0 ace at 25 minutes. And in my games at least, it leads to overagression and led me to more comebacks than stomps (like diving inhibutor turret, getting aced, and allowing us to push down their inhib turret off of one bad engage). I think it helps that me and my friends are better at teamfights than solo lanes.

Stall comps are annoying, but people I play agasint tend to go for the hyper aggressive playstyle instead of the hyper safe. Both can work in this meta.

Agreed with minion block though.

KORGtuners2 votes

The problem is complex. Many systems working together.

One major mistake Riot made was with minions. They buffed HP and damage. Buffing HP only made it much harder to last hit under a turret. I'm not sure but I believe minion move speed could possibly help with lane freezes, and would certainly help with pushing towers.

I'm not convinced death timers should scale. I suggest static timers up to 30 minutes into the game. After that point a substantial increase. The mistake I see is giving less death timers early in a game. Early in a game, the enemy has to take down 5 towers with 1 or less items. AKA not happening, you are safe from losing the game. However, because the timers are so short, death early game is flirting with being meaningless. The enemy struggles to take any meaningful advantage.

Towers are another piece of the system. Personally, I would try something new. If a tower aggros an enemy champion, it instead releases a moderately damaging aoe ring/pulse. The intent is, tower dives should be all in. Currently, it is one person tanks the other people attack in relative safety.

I am biased against Riot though. They wouldn't hire Guardsman Bob.

P0IS0N IVY2 votes

Let's not deny the fact that losing a teamfight late into the game has always be game changing and lead to a win. However, I do agree that Riot has gone quite overboard this season. The minion buffs and death timer changes were unnecessary in my opinion.

Winning teamfights should allow a team to be able to take down something, but at the current moment, for the opposite team it feels as if all their accomplishments previous in the game were completely useless.

Perhaps a slight buff to minions depending on the number of players dead after 20 minutes? This would slowdown the push but not completely negate the ability to take down objectives by the winning team.

NichtHurz3 votes

The high death timers just kick in way too early. When I'm in a game between 25-30 minutes and I die I feel like in a 40 minute game last season. It's totally fine to capitalize such mistakes and the possible punishment should become harder and harder as the game goes on, but just not this early.

What was your thought with the minions? I think it might become quite difficult to balance minion buffs in combination with death count/timer.

AninLegions7772 votes

I'm sick of it too. I'm even sick of when they aren't able to end and leave one half hp nexus turret. I mean what the fuck are we meant to do? Defend? Lool. They'll take Baron and Drake. Try to contest? They'll send their ADC to backdoor. It really sucks.

SH Azykan2 votes

Legit just won a game because of this Bot lane fed, mid lane fed, I did shitty in the jungle, top lane got fed though as ezreal and could stall out a bit Hit 34 mins, I get 1 good kindred ult, Jinx bot gets a quadra kill (only 4 kills she got all game) and we take mid all the way from tier 1 to the nexus and end.

Enemy team was so upset (I literally timed my ult perfectly to stop J4 and Annie from insta-gibbing our team). And I completely understand it. Our team overall did not deserve that win but we had 3 marksman and a zed all alive to take towers so they just went away immediately as soon as we got 1 thing to go our way.

Dragfin1 votes

All this whining and complaining can be attributed to the fact that instead of ending a game when a team has an advantage, they would rather tally up more kills which also allows the other team to come back and win that late team fight and ultimately win the game. Stop being a greedy player and win the game when you can instead of screwing around.

Himbeekee6 votes

I think you missed the point. Would you rather have a game that has potential, or a game where you lose one fight and it's immediately over for your team? A game that averages at least 30 minutes, with about 10-15 of those minutes being laning, shouldn't be judged by one team fight.

Dragfin2 votes

{quoted}

I think you missed the point. Would you rather have a game that has potential, or a game where you lose one fight and it's immediately over for your team? A game that averages at least 30 minutes, with about 10-15 of those minutes being laning, shouldn't be judged by one team fight.

I didn't miss the point. I was simply telling you why this happens. End the game when you have the chance. That is exactly what it sounds like the other team did to them. With the advantages the OP's team had, they were farming kills instead of winning the game and in the end lost because of greed and stupidity.

James Stone4 votes

[deleted]

Dragfin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=James Stone,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NEknsdZA,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2016-02-18T22:17:37.031+0000)

Dude, I disagree with the general idea of the OP, and so I feel justified in saying you couldn't have missed the point harder.

His point isn't "yeah this happened to me", it's "I don't like this happening FOR BOTH SIDES". You aren't enlightning anyone, you're just being a prick that wants to flaunt around about other people's "stupidity" and "greed" he's willing to make a strawman out of anything.

The OP doesn't like the fact one teamfight can win or lose the game, regardless of which team, his or the enemy's, wins it. Please stop being a disrespectful toadwaffler and actually take time to read the thread you're commenting on.

Very sorry logic and you don't get along. You are only reading what you want. I say again, 30-35 minutes into the game with an advantage like that and you don't win means you are doing anything but. Be as offensive as you wish. When you finally understand the game maybe you will understand the logic behind what myself and others have been saying.

James Stone1 votes

{quoted}

Very sorry logic and you don't get along. You are only reading what you want. I say again, 30-35 minutes into the game with an advantage like that and you don't win means you are doing anything but. Be as offensive as you wish. When you finally understand the game maybe you will understand the logic behind what myself and others have been saying.

I AGREE WITH YOU, HOW DENSE CAN YOU BE. OP IS SAYING HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IT'S HEALTHY, NOT THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN

Szunray1 votes

I think It rewards a team that plays well, at any stage of a game. If a team manages a clutch ace at baron pit 30 minutes in, that SHOULD be huge.

I very much like the fact that no matter how behind you are, you're just one or two solid teamfights away from victory.

If death timers were shorter (and towers were stronger), a team that's far ahead not only gets the benefit of having more gold and items, but they also get to take stupid risks for no other reason than "whats the worst that could happen?"

It's very nice in a game that at times feels far too one sided.

My Waifu Vanilla5 votes

The problem is is that the "losing" team can win a team fight post 30 and take anywhere from 3-5 towers easily because death timers are already almost 70 seconds or so. I am not against taking 2 towers or something off of an ace, but taking all the way up to possibly 2 inhibs is rediculous when you have only taken maybe just the outer turrets this game so far.

TeCoolMage1 votes

The problem is that this stuff happens when it's not a clutch and the enemy team was just good early on. I could ace by enemy team who's ahead, and they'd be a 3-5 towers down if the timers were long enough. On the other hand, I could be aced by that ahead enemy and they take 4-6 towers down due to having more items and therefore better pushing, but those 4-6 towers won't be the outer towers, they'll be the inhib & nexus towers.

Szunray1 votes

Sure, but before, when death timers were shorter, the enemy team that's even slightly ahead would just provoke fights at any opportunity, because they had less to lose.

say your team has open inhibitors, and their team has most of their turrets still up. In a previous season, the enemy team would just walk into your base and fight you.

Doesn't matter if one of them was split pushing, if none of their ults were up, etc. To them, it was "worth a shot." Even in older seasons, if an enemy scored an ace while pushing your nexus turrets at 30 minutes, they would win soon after. However, if you aced THEM, you would only possibly get their outer turret.

Now, if you manage to pull off an ace while behind, you can grab two turrets and baron. You could push your way down to their inhibitor and all but completely even up the game from a certain loss. Even pro teams realize that even a single bad play can cost them the game.

So teams have to play more cautiously is all. In previous seasons, I dunno how many times I've seen teams that are ahead just completely throw the game. And not like, once, like repeatedly. Fed Yi's rushing in 1 v 5. Spawn after spawn. And then the team that's ahead eventually "gets it together" and wins.

Now that won't happen. You can't just rely on being fed and having an early tower lead, and you can't just live in top lane farming for late game while your team dies. You are liable to lose at any time, and have to play your best. So not every "ace then win" is clutch, but the possibility for it is more real than it has been for a while.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Not at all. That change was easily my favorite of the entire preseason; games dragged on way too long unnecessarily during season 5 and I never particularly enjoyed it on the winning or losing side.

FastAsHeck1 votes

Also sick of teamfights lasting less than 5 seconds most of the time

kaltenashes1 votes

Meddler (NA)

Death timers I think's a point we'll have to disagree on for now, in that we currently feel they're in the right ballpark, particularly given homeguards being available to everyone for free post 20 minutes.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4l34bXEW-riot-can-i-get-a-rioter-to-answer-these-questions?comment=00050000000000000000000100000000000000010000

So uh, if i dont want that free homeguard at 20, can we decrease death timers?

Mhihnj1 votes

Welcome to New season disease (NSD).

Steel Blossom1 votes

It's basically what happens 50 mins into a s5 game, just 20 minutes sooner. Don't know what's to complain about if shorter game length isn't an issue.

DamonWynters1 votes

Bring back real games. Games where people could come from behind and win the game or atleast make more then a laughable resistance. Games where building for the late game was a real thing. Why prevent stall comps? If its a legit strat that has an obviously counter play that can be made by the opposition such as sieges and forcing fights or strong objective control then whats wrong with it? Is zerg rushing 20 minute fights any better? Does that feel more intense to anybody? On the losing side it feels like why play? on the winning side its just a boring game of whack-a-mole so why play?

Honestly most times I log in now are out of nostalgia as opposed to thinking omg LoL is so fun I can't wait to play it.

LordCrazyGlue1 votes

My issue with this is, If you have 1 weak player on your team there is no way for the team to truly carry them. especially if it is the adc. It's just over at that point

Marshbouy1 votes

I CANNOT AGREE WITH THIS MORE

CoachEzzy1 votes

bump

Shonjl1 votes

Sadly Riot says this is exactly what they wanted.

I am pretty sure Meddler said in his own words that they like what they did and it is working as intended(short of balancing out a few things here and there)

So basically while everyone hates it, Riot basically is telling us to get over it.

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