Examples are 
where they would simply buy 
or 
as their starting items, grabs 
and then straight rushes one-shot items like 
?
Why are junglers like these allowed to sustain the whole jungle pathing without any worries by holding a Machete? It's pretty unfair for them to be allowed an early damage spike like this while having no HP/Mana issues in the jungle.
MorganFreemanBot10 votesThe jungle items are supposed to combine into an item which is desirable because it augments sustain & speed for your jungler clear, while also making your smite an offensive ability.
The problem is that some jungle champs do not benefit from it. Warwick, Rengar, Shaco, and a couple of other champions do not have the aoe needed to benefit from a full-built jungler item properly, and as such a Tiamat gives them a much better leg up for their clear.
There's really no way around this, and quite frankly it's fine. The smite buffs are pretty freaking strong, but it's good to have the ability to decline that path in order to invest in 'real' items.
BobaFlautist1 votesThe way around this is to make an ad enchantment that builds from Tiamat.
Veraska7 votesWhy not? Its not like laners need to buy 2 dorans blades before they can start buying real items
BeatzBoyFTW13 votesThey come at a cost of spiking real slow & delays their core items? 450 gold for a starter item isn't cheap.
Meanwhile, jungler Assassins can just buy a Machete & rushes for a straight Serrated Dirk & still has no problem sustaining.
ValiantKiller2 votesThey come at a cost of spiking real slow & delays their core items? 450 gold for a starter item isn't cheap.
Meanwhile, jungler Assassins can just buy a Machete & rushes for a straight Serrated Dirk & still has no problem sustaining.
Maybe because the final form of the smite item which is 
or 
is worst version of all smite items ? Which most of assassin and divers need to finish ?
would give you extra damage on hitting with AA, 
give you movement speed beside the AP, 
HP and aoe damage while give what ? AD and 10% CDR ? I beat as 
myself i would rush or 
or 
for more better AD and CDR?
You know what is more fun ?
give the same CDR, more AD and healing from your damage.
Maybe that would explain why champions like shaco, rengar, lee, vi, assassins and divers in general prefer to escape that smite item.
BeatzBoyFTW7 votesI don't care about Enchantments. I only care about junglers at general needing at least 
to sustain their HP & Mana pool well between clearing camps & ganking. What's unfair is assassin junglers being allowed to skip it & still wouldn't face any sustain problems at all.
ValiantKiller2 votesI don't care about Enchantments. I only care about junglers at general needing at least
And who said they don't ? only shaco and warwick maybe don't cause they in unhealthy status right now but otherwise all champions i mention from wukong to vi to lee to rengar to kha pay alot if they don't get this 2 items
The Yetii Rider3 votesIn your example, you named a champion that doesn't even have mana.
are all junglers who don't use mana. Why should we force them to buy a knife, which has a large portion of its gold in mana sustain, just to get enough health sustain to survive in the jungle?
ForFoxSakes1 votesTalisman gives additional sustain with the DoT burn + hp drain regen, but for rengar/lee/shyv it's totally crap bc they dont use mana so it's 350g for just a bit more sustain with HP/sec with the drain. WW doesnt need it either bc he has passive lifesteal to sustain, that the added HP/sec is meaningless, while Shaco has boxes to tank
Getting a Tiamat means he clears faster = takes less damage which gives a healthier clear than trying to clear slower with slightly more HP back.
Eedat2 votesThey come at a cost of spiking real slow & delays their core items?
.......Isnt that exactly the same as buying Machete and delaying your other items? Machete legit gives zero combat stats unlike Dorans items lmao
BeatzBoyFTW1 votesIt's upgradable & helps you sustain well in the jungle (feels like I'm repeating this sentence for the 100th time...) for the whole match, and also gives your Smite more access to champion targets rather than just Monsters. Doran items has none of those.
Tank & AP junglers benefits highly from this, but yet loses their build path speed to assassin junglers since they're somewhat allowed to rush AD items with Machete alone.
Eedat2 votesYes, I understand that its upgradable. In the cases where they dont upgrade it, explain how it is different than a Dorans item?
ForFoxSakes1 votesLaners have a combat efficient item by starting with a dorans vs a jungler who needs to start with machete adds ZERO combat effectiveness. Needing to buy a machete and pots slows the spike for the jungler's items just as much as getting a dorans does for laners so that argument is totally irrelevant
JoB0b1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Red Skaarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cqtr0HvR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-11T17:18:46.560+0000)
Why not? Its not like laners need to buy 2 dorans blades before they can start buying real items
Exactly! Jungle always getting griped about, don't forget you have a jungle too. And I'm pretty sure you want yours to be able to gank as much as possible and help with objectives. Is no difference for our starting item versus yours. Don't like it? Well there is a great thing called vision , the more you have the more you can evade .
Best Ekko NA4 votesTo be honest, it's inefficient to not upgrade the Jungle item BUT, not immediately and eventually the Jungle item falls off. Think about the costs of the item, because that's what matters.
Now think about who is stronger? A Tiamat or a no damage Jungle item? Obviously the Tiamat is more powerful right, but the other Jungler has an advantage in Gold because his original item isn't going to waste. This translates to a much faster first item.
(or any Jungle item, they all cost the same).
Now assess the situation again, who is stronger? Well it honestly depends on the champion but by items alone, the red smite damage and +10 AD from Warriors is going to be a lot more powerful than the Tiamat and Lethality. This is likely even being a bit generous because I can't see most Junglers even making it to Serrated Dirk. There's a good chance it would just be two long swords and some extra cash by the time the other Jungler has finished their full item.
Taking a regular item start as a Jungler does come at costs. Everything mostly comes down to how fed they can get early, to make up for the gap between them and the other Jungler.
AlienPrimate3 votesYou are allowed to buy a longsword, dagger, ruby crystal, or cloth armor and hold onto it for 30 minutes too. Riot doesn't "allow" anything as far as builds go. If you want to upgrade a jungle item or not is of absolutely no concern to me.
BeatzBoyFTW2 votesYou're really not understanding the context of my thread at all.
There are junglers who desperately needed at least the 1st upgrade like in order to sustain in the jungle & being healthy enough for ganks. Why are some exceptions like Rengar & Shaco allowed to sustain just as good as those simply by holding throughout the whole game? They simply do not come at a cost at all, which is simply unfair like all other junglers.
JoB0b2 votesJust depends on the champ, like different lane champs start with different items. Like a top lane building corrupt potion , which cant even build into anything . I play a lot of ivern and I don't even try to finish my jgl item until like 4th item.
Quiet Dude3 votesI never upgrade my machete on Lee Sin until it's his last item. Don't need the mana, and the items I buy with my gold are better than cinderhulk enchant.
ValiantKiller1 votes[{quoted}](name=Quiet Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cqtr0HvR,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-05-11T17:54:12.434+0000)
I never upgrade my machete on Lee Sin until it's his last item. Don't need the mana, and the items I buy with my gold are better than cinderhulk enchant.
Same for wukong, as long as i got my mana buff i'm fine and beside as i said isn't a great item to rush while are much better version if you are tank or aa champion.
Handin Out Naps3 votesThey hold it for the bonus xp lol. You are forced to buy it.
BeatzBoyFTW1 votesRead my comment, and you should probably need to re-read my thread.
Pika Fox3 votesHow is it unfair? They purchase their jungle item that takes up a slot and allows them to get jungle exp, and they opt to buy other items over any of the jungle items.
Jungle items were just made so riot could make the jungle harder and give less xp to laners.
The Yetii Rider3 votesYou can't expect ranged junglers like Kindred to function in a jungle where melees need to finish knife in order to survive.
Plus, you know, other players try and kill the jungle camps as the game goes on. And they never even buy items. At some point, levels have to be enough to kill the camps. Otherwise a mid laner will never get raptors.
Critmaster Garen2 votesto be fair, what are they going to upgrade it into?
Purgë1 votesit's because jgl camps are so shit and a joke u dont even need jgl items to clear them and u can just do a fast clear and sit in a lane with full hp double buffs
BeatzBoyFTW1 votesFor Rengar/Shaco sure. For other champions like Sejuani, Zac, or even Fiddlesticks suffers without an upgrade. Also, you're almost never guaranteed double buffs at all times since most of the time, you had to give away blue to your mid laner. Either that, or your buffs got invaded.
iPooUnicorns1 votesI think Riot is addressing this in the next patch by removing the lifesteal vs monsters from it.
Akali is SO HOT1 votesWell Rengar has no mana so there isn't really a need for him to upgrade it in the first place. Shaco has his boxes to tank the camps for him and I'm guessing he doesn't have very bad mana problems either (I think) so there isn't a reason for him to finish it either. It's not that their op (Shaco actually kinda is right now, but whatever), it's just that their kits can function perfectly fine without having to finish the item.